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Thread: We are not Criminals

  1. #1
    Administrator Fred Zed's Avatar
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  2. #2
    It would be beneficial if a well respected high profile attorney was retained to push back against the Nordic model and argue for legalization. This is not about the exploitation of women, indeed this is about the rights of consenting adults to do what they would like to do without the government making either party criminals. Tax and regulate this - do not make either party a criminal.

  3. #3
    Thanks for posting this, fred, I have just joined the discussion over there.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Luck3069 View Post
    It would be beneficial if a well respected high profile attorney was retained to push back against the Nordic model and argue for legalization. This is not about the exploitation of women, indeed this is about the rights of consenting adults to do what they would like to do without the government making either party criminals. Tax and regulate this - do not make either party a criminal.
    If it is taxed it is a legal enterprise, if it becomes a legal enterprise an SP must service all clients regardless of age, gender, race, handicap, sexual identity etc etc etc.

    That's going to happen eventually [refusal of a client] and then agencies and independent ladies are going to get sued. In fact, I think that is the plan going forward. To reduce "prostitution" by legalizing it and then making it an extremely unattractive business financially. Escorting will continue, but, if it is given legal status under a Canadian model ... it's not going to be as vibrant and your choices are going to be slim after half a decade or so.

    Either way.. Lawyers are going to make good money on this.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by blkone View Post
    If it is taxed it is a legal enterprise, if it becomes a legal enterprise an SP must service all clients regardless of age, gender, race, handicap, sexual identity etc etc etc.
    I don't think so. Like in independent work, people are allowed to take the contracts they want and reject others for whatever reason they want to state (other than discrimination). Even if I have enough money to pay an artist, I can't force him to perform for me if he doesn't want to. Personnally I would prefer decriminalization with as little legislation as possible, but I'd be happy with legalization.

    About the WANC, it would be good to have clients come out and be public about that (like Chester Brown who wrote ''Paying for it''). But abolitionists don't listen to the sex workers themselves, so clients have even less credibility.

    For the sex workers, it's their work and income while most clients and merb members are occasional. Overall, the clients have a lot less at stake and less incentive to jeopardize their private lives by getting directly involved.
    “Truth, Justice, Freedom, Reasonably Priced Love.”

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Siocnarf View Post
    I don't think so. Like in independent work, people are allowed to take the contracts they want and reject others for whatever reason they want to state (other than discrimination). Even if I have enough money to pay an artist, I can't force him to perform for me if he doesn't want to. Personnally I would prefer decriminalization with as little legislation as possible, but I'd be happy with legalization.

    About the WANC, it would be good to have clients come out and be public about that (like Chester Brown who wrote ''Paying for it''). But abolitionists don't listen to the sex workers themselves, so clients have even less credibility.

    For the sex workers, it's their work and income while most clients and merb members are occasional. Overall, the clients have a lot less at stake and less incentive to jeopardize their private lives by getting directly involved.
    Actually no, you cannot refuse contracts for any reason if you are an independent worker that pays taxes. If a person decides to sue you, you must provide reasonable grounds to the court as to explain (legally) why you refused to provide whatever service it is, to the person you refused. Race, religion, handicap etc are not 'reasonable grounds' under the laws of Canada for a legal enterprise.

    Also if the person writes on ann123 for example he/she does "Not serve handicap/race/gender/" that person is liable to face civil penalties. She or he may also be liable criminal penalties as well such as "incitement to racial hatred" for example... since the definition is pretty broad (Section 319 cc).

    And if it is legalized they will create a bureaucracy to handle it and they will do "investigations" - all really to shut-down most prostitution in Canada which is all this stuff is really about.

    I too would just prefer decriminalization, or heck, even stay where we are now - where unless there are drugs or minors involved... No one seems to really care.

  7. #7
    Luck3069 makes a valid point; are we pro-active enough?? Certainly the merb administration is trying it's best,but I believe a high profile competent attorney who represents the industry is the way to go; of course he or she will have to be paid but it should not be that difficult to figure out a way for "the industry" to cover the expense

  8. #8
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    blkone, in countries where it's legalized, prostitutes can negotiate contracts with the clients. Even though they probably can't reject someone outright based on discrimination, it's easy enough to find any 100 reasons why you can't agree on the terms and therefore could not do business. It's not like serving drinks in a bar.
    “Truth, Justice, Freedom, Reasonably Priced Love.”

  9. #9
    He forgot to add where the client is taxed. Prostitution isn't illegal because of it's morality. It's illegal because...

    The State does not get a cut of the money. That's the issue. If they could figure out a way to create some sort of Escort-Register and Payment system with a dual receipt system, trust me, it would be made legal that very day.

    "Consent" means nothing, his argument is like Employers and Employees "consenting" to being paid under the table, as if consent alone makes that legal.

    The only way prostitution will be made legal, without strings, is when the State can get their share 95% of the time.


    Oh and another thing Prostitution sort of messes with the inflation of a nation since taxation is a way to reduce the supply of money in circulation. It's probably minimal, but, that's still another reason why Prostitution is 'illegal.'

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Siocnarf View Post
    blkone, in countries where it's legalized, prostitutes can negotiate contracts with the clients. Even though they probably can't reject someone outright based on discrimination, it's easy enough to find any 100 reasons why you can't agree on the terms and therefore could not do business. It's not like serving drinks in a bar.
    Yes, but people have been sued for racial discrimination in these countries and the clients have won. If your industry is LEGAL you must follow THE LAW. The State does not give a damn about your preferences really, it's finances that matter. When something is made legal a budget projection is drawn up, that's what matters, not the personal preferences of people.

  11. #11
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    The main problem with government control (like if they are forced to get a license) is that most escorts would prefer working under the table, for tax issues but also for privacy reasons. Many would still want to keep it secret from their friends/relatives. It would create the same problems as prohibition. People should be allowed to do it privately. Like gambling: if you go the the casinos, it's regulated, but you're still allowed to play for money in your house with your friends.
    “Truth, Justice, Freedom, Reasonably Priced Love.”

  12. #12
    A lot of hobbyists have a preference for using SP's because they do not want, are incapable, or have a preference for no strings attached companionship. Does that make it legal? Why not? Do you really think the State is all moral and cares who you're seeing? No.

    The Hobbyist is a criminal in the eyes of the State because he is purchasing a service or a good without paying a tax. He is also "technically" inflating the money supply by repeating this behavior. But, the main reason is the purchase of a service or good without paying a tax to the State.

    You really think they care about an SP's preferences if they decide to make it legal under a new Canadian model which has to be assented to by Her Majesty Elizabeth II which automatically makes the legislation fall under the criminal code? No.

    Laws are about money, not morals.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Siocnarf View Post
    The main problem with government control (like if they are forced to get a license) is that most escorts would prefer working under the table, for tax issues but also for privacy reasons. Many would still want to keep it secret from their friends/relatives. It would create the same problems as prohibition. People should be allowed to do it privately. Like gambling: if you go the the casinos, it's regulated, but you're still allowed to play for money in your house with your friends.
    I agree. But, I don't think that's what they're going to do. SP's are not going to be allowed to inflate the money supply and at the same time not pay a cut to the State. I just do not see that happening.

    I hope I'm wrong because I can already see what they plan to do to our hobby through "legislation."

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Siocnarf View Post
    The main problem with government control (like if they are forced to get a license) is that most escorts would prefer working under the table, for tax issues but also for privacy reasons.
    They will be required to get a standard license to operate a business in whatever province they are in. If, they choose to continue without the license and work 'under the table', they will be guilty of tax evasion, operating without a license etc. They could do it, but, with a very small loyal group because outright advertising, online or otherwise, would end up bad for the SP.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Siocnarf View Post
    The main problem with government control (like if they are forced to get a license) is that most escorts would prefer working under the table, for tax issues but also for privacy reasons. Many would still want to keep it secret from their friends/relatives. It would create the same problems as prohibition. People should be allowed to do it privately. Like gambling: if you go the the casinos, it's regulated, but you're still allowed to play for money in your house with your friends.
    Actually, no you're not. Gambling outside of a regulated institution for money is patently illegal in Canada (201) (202) (203).

    People do it anyways, but, it is illegal.

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