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Thread: Interesting: Deflation Hits Oldest Profession In The World: Hookers By The Numbers -

  1. #1
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    Interesting: Deflation Hits Oldest Profession In The World: Hookers By The Numbers -

    Great article in the economist Deflation Hits Oldest Profession In The World: Hookers By The Numbers

    Montreal is cheap!!

    http://www.economist.com/news/briefi...bang-your-buck

  2. #2
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    It's a good article, and very true!

  3. #3
    Deflation hasn't come to Montreal, at least not if you go by the Bank of Canada and my perhaps faulty memory.

    When I started, back in 1999, the typical escort rate in Montreal was just edging up to $140 an hour. Now it's hitting $200, with some holdouts still at $180 (bless them). The Bank's CPI calculator says that $140 in 1999 is equal to $190 today. In other words, not much of a change one way or the other.

  4. #4
    Red Paul is right. The Economist does not have a clue what it is talking about....prices are going up everywhere...

  5. #5
    Unfortunately they missed the part of statistics where we all learned that correlation does not equal causation. We would tell them they are weak on econometrics, but they would probably say they are not johns and do not gave our level of knowledge.

    They analyzed escort reviews over a long period of time and determined that average prices went down on those review boards. Here is what happened. More lower priced girls, who did not previously have a website or perhaps even a cell phone, started getting reviewed. More punters could afford a computer, discovered the internet, and started doing reviews. More websites, such as Jackson's ISG, USG, and AP, became popular, and many users of those boards also do reviews on TER even though their low expectations cause statistical aberrations in the Reviews they do.

    So, yes, the average hourly rate of reviewed girls, particularly in the USA, has gone down. That really does not matter, because we do not view escorts as all being the same, which is what a study of averages with the only distinguishing characteristics being items like BBBJ, takes as a given.

    If you make a list of your favorite escorts, freeze their looks and performance and sexual offerings, and ask yourself if the price has gone down in the last 10 years, the answer is no. It has stayed the same or has gone up, depending on the location of the girl.

    But for the USA, at least, it is much easier to now locate a cheap fuck than it used to be. I can go online and find a $150-$200 full service provider with some reviews. Years ago I could not do that, I would need to go to the streets or to a hooker bar. I have tried those providers and have not been pleased with the results. It is a quick one-shot encounter, and the girls are often from the lower socioeconomic class and possess many of the negative stereotypes associated with sex work. I prefer the current USA higher-end escorts with a typical price tag of $350-$600 an hour, the equivalent of which in Montreal is $170-$250 an hour.

    But that is the explanation of the skewed data from the article, which focused on English language review boards, primarily in the USA and perhaps in Great Britain.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Patron View Post
    So, yes, the average hourly rate of reviewed girls, particularly in the USA, has gone down. That really does not matter, because we do not view escorts as all being the same, which is what a study of averages with the only distinguishing characteristics being items like BBBJ, takes as a given.
    Well of course sexual services markets are segmented. It's hard to know if each market is well represented in each and every review board, including the one on which they made their census (I guess it's TER). It's obvious economics does not have the data to make thorough analysis distinguishing markets, including the very large erotic massage market in Montréal. Prices in the rising MP market, itself stratified, tend to be lower. TE gave no specific city examples on prices trends. We don't know really what they have found specifically for Montréal. Also, the recession has obviously contributed to lower prices all over the world as the the intrusion of migrant workers in the the higher end markets in Europe and here also to a lesser degree.

  7. #7
    They said in the article that the most striking part of their analysis was the drop in the average price during recent years. They read all of those reviews and paid no attention to differences in performance other than a few service offerings and aged categorization.

    I found it to be a ridiculous attempt to make the purchase of sex to be a commodity rather than a personal service, and it came to an unreasonable conclusion.

    Yes, the average price of reviewed prostitutes has decreased over the last few years. That does not mean that deflation has occurred. It just means that the average price of reviewed prostitutes has decreased over the last few years. My hypothesis is that the girls on the lower end of the pricing scale were available years ago but were not reviewed on escort boards, as they worked offline.

    As many other posters indicated, the prototypical Montreal escort with great reviews currently in the $170-$250 per hour range was not more expensive than that a few years ago, so we know that no deflation has occurred in that scenario.

    I can think of a great number of providers that I used to see in Las Vegas, Los Angeles, Chicago and New York City years ago whose "younger sister" version that I see now are at least $100 more expensive now, so no deflation there.

    I can log on to a US site called USA Sex Guide and get laid, tonight if I want to, for a very low price. I do not want to do so because the girl will be a skank. But that website has opened up a lot of US markets that did not previously have an online commercial sex market. I think that difference is what the Economist is catching. A long time ago, only high-end escorts got reviewed online. Now a lot more low-end girls get reviewed.

    So the difference in average hourly rate is not deflation. Thinking so is rather insulting, actually. There are some prostitutes that are a priceless fantasy. Some of them I would not fuck with someone else's dick. Commoditzing them just does not work. If I like gourmet burgers and eat at my favorite better burger joint, and five new McDonalds open up nearby, the average price of a burger in my area will drop. That does not mean anything to me if I have no interest in a Big & Tasty McSandwich.

  8. #8

    Intersting article in The Economist "

    The Economist is a serious magazine covering world events , a sort of intelligent persons Time magazine . The August 8-15 edition has a long , serious ,thought provoking article on the effects of the digital age on prostitution . It treats the oldest profession as a business case , with an analysis of preffered options , rates of return , success factors , barriers to entry etc in major cities world wide . An interersting read !!

  9. #9
    There is a thread down below titled Deflation regarding the article. I guess I applaud there attempt to father data from more than the traditional source of streetwalkers, but I do not think they thought through the data enough to arrive at the bold conclusions that they presented. Grading on a curve, the Economist is head and shoulders above the trashy tabloid that Time and the successor yo Newsweek have become, but the entire print media has deteriorated.

    The only conclusion I agree with is that markets that have a lot of emigrants have lower prostitution prices. We see that trend in the US, with Texas typically having a rate per hour that is 15-25 percent less than similar metropolitan areas for the same service. But they fell too quickly into xenophobia on that topic. They typically ask specific working girls what has caused a stagnation in their pricing and demand over a period of time, and those working girls will cite competition from "foreign" working girls operating in their market. Before coming to that conclusion, I would analyze whether the local working girls being questioned might have put on a few pounds and a few wrinkles during the period under analysis, but that might piss off too many women who subscribe to The Economist.

  10. #10
    Brook Magnanti's comment

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/sex...tion-mean.html

    By Dr Brooke Magnanti, formerly known as Belle de Jour1:34PM BST 15 Aug 2014

    This week, following in the footsteps of the World Health Organisation (WHO) and The Lancet, among others, The Economist came out firmly in favour of decriminalising prostitution.

    Citing arguments to do with public health (as recently highlighted at the AIDS 2014 conference in Melbourne) and workers' rights, the cover story was devoted to an impassioned defence of full decriminalisation.

    Currently, in the UK, sex work is technically legal - contrary to popular opinion (mainly influenced by cop dramas). Selling sex is not in itself illegal, but pimps, brothels and soliciting all are. While this sounds a reasonable compromise, it does mean that sex workers are often forced to work alone, or risk being arrested if (say) two escorts work out of the same flat. The general distrust of police has also led to serious problems, as highlighted by the Ugly Mugs project - which allows the sharing of information on potentially dangerous clients, and makes it easier to report assault.

    Full decriminalisation in the UK would, estimates suggest, add £5.3 billion to the GDP (while trying to estimate the exact size of the sex industry is always dodgy ground, it's safe to assume that incomes may currently be underreported across the industry, out of fear of police intrusion).

    But what exactly would it look like?

    In the Netherlands and Germany, legalisation means that only licensed sex workers, working in particular premises (such as Germany's brothels or Amsterdam's famous windows), are working legally. This is also true in the US state of Nevada, where only the highly-regulated and very restictive brothels are legal. Those arrangements have come under fire - by none more so than the sex workers themselves - for fostering abuses in the system that make it, in effect, worse than pimping.

    With decriminalisation, by contrast, sex workers could work anywhere - even from their homes, or with other prostitutes - without breaking the law. Legalisation gives the employers the balance of power; decriminalisation returns rights to the workers, making them free agents.

    According to The Economist, the move of sex workers online is a boon to the industry and already allows them increased freedom. Sex workers can build 'personal brands' and screen their clients, as well as give and receive feedback. They can operate on a flexible, freelance basis and manage bookings around their other commitments. They can share health information with customers. In other words, the internet is making prostitution more like a regular 'service industry'.


    The suggestion that prostitution should be decriminalised has, of course, met with opposition - especially from groups promoting the so-called 'Swedish Model' - which criminalises the purchase of sex, rather than the sale. Scotland considered and rejected such a law last year. While in Ireland and Northern Ireland, the issue has been under debate for some time without a clear outcome.

    The Economist piece has attracted much online attention from the anti-sex work crowd. But what is noticeable is how quiet these same voices were when the WHO and Lancet drew the same conclusions about decriminalisation. Why? Is it perhaps easier to attack economic ideology rather than argue public health with the medical establishment. But while neither an economic, or health-based, argument is ideal when the crux of the issue is securing individual rights, to many who have campaigned on behalf of sex workers it is at least a sign of growing support for evidence-based rather than prejudice-based policy.

    The economic arguments are rarely taken into account by those who support the 'Swedish model' (or End Demand). By mistaking services for products, they imagine fewer customers would result in fewer sex workers. But this is unrealistic - the assumption that the number of clients and the number of prostitutes is necessarily linked is in itself faulty. If fewer people ate at fast food outlets, would the minimum wage workers there be better off without having to do anything else? Exactly.

    The downward turn in income - that you can get 'more bang for your buck' - has been noted by the Economist (and apocryphally elsewhere for several years). It's fair to say that fewer sex workers operating in London earn as much as I did, per hour, ten years on.
    According to the Economist, the picture is much the same worldwide. This has not, however, resulted in less supply.
    This is in part because people with criminal records, or outed as sex workers, often find it difficult to get into other employment (in some states in the US they are even put on sex offenders' lists). In part because - even in those places where the supply of sex has been decriminalised - women are still highly stigmatised once known as sex workers. And in part because the economic opportunities in general have not been great for some years now.

    Yes, more sex workers advertising on the web and the proliferation of review sites and apps, make it easier for both sellers and buyers to compare the market. But the cost of living continues to rise, and those who wish to restrict prostitution and advocate the 'Swedish model' rarely, if ever, propose viable alternatives to the work or campaign to eliminate criminal records.

    For many, this will be the first introduction to the workers' rights approach, which is only just hitting mainstream coverage (as espoused by some such as sex worker turned writer Melissa Gira Grant). Such arguments reveal the interesting ways in which workers' rights can and do overlap with individual freedoms.

    If that means more minds are opened to a rethink of the current laws, for example incorporating the Merseyside Model - where police have built links with sex workers and declared violence against them to be a 'hate crime' - then all the better.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Patron View Post
    My hypothesis is that the girls on the lower end of the pricing scale were available years ago but were not reviewed on escort boards, as they worked offline.
    That's my interpretation also. The market in the streets has been declining as they move indoors and online and this has little or nothing to do with the recent criminal laws or the economy.

    The problem is often that people who make these studies know little about the industry and don't know what they are looking at. I'm always dubious when I see people trying to study prostitution by numbers. They lack the scientific rigor, which is to make sure that what you measure really represents what you study and to know what are the limitations of your methodology.

    I'm sure the internet reviews have increased the average quality and success rate of encounters. So in a sense it is definitely true that you get more bang for your buck, even if prices stayed stable. Also, the ability to find good clients more easily can be more valuable that higher rates to the seller. Not having to spend 6h standing in the freezing rain is probably seen as an improvement.
    “Truth, Justice, Freedom, Reasonably Priced Love.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by Siocnarf View Post
    That's my interpretation also. The market in the streets has been declining as they move indoors and online and this has little or nothing to do with the recent criminal laws or the economy.

    The problem is often that people who make these studies know little about the industry and don't know what they are looking at. I'm always dubious when I see people trying to study prostitution by numbers. They lack the scientific rigor, which is to make sure that what you measure really represents what you study and to know what are the limitations of your methodology.

    I'm sure the internet reviews have increased the average quality and success rate of encounters. So in a sense it is definitely true that you get more bang for your buck, even if prices stayed stable. Also, the ability to find good clients more easily can be more valuable that higher rates to the seller. Not having to spend 6h standing in the freezing rain is probably seen as an improvement.
    I am not sure that you and Patron are correct and the article in discussion is not correct.

    I have seen prices in the US, particular the NY area stagnate. And those prices are not of the lower end, and it's not the higher end either. Why wouldn't demand for sexual services slip if the amount of discretionary spending slips?

    Among the middle tier providers ($250 to $350 per hour in NYC area) and some agencies, I see they do have specials when they are experiencing low call demand. They will discount $20 to $40 per hour.

    There is one trend I do see, and that is the number of girls pushing short stay or quickies for less, but they become higher volume, which I would not be interested in. But for a guy who has just $100 extra at the end of the month, he will spend it for a 20 minute quickie. To me that is risky.

    I think in Montreal the agencies follow the trend. If one agency pushes the price up slightly, the others follow. If they are slow, they may have some specials. Guys may complain at first, but they get complacent, except the change. If they push their fees too high, I think you would see the demand drop off, but not totally.
    So when will Hillary go to Prison?

    Only the Democrats would have a potential CONVICT as their Top Presidential Candidate. Simply Pathetic

  13. #13
    I am afraid we will never get an apples to apples comparison over a period of time. I would agree with you that the lack of increase (and in some situations a decrease) in disposable income among johns causes a market to exist that matches that disposable income. I have been fortunate in the past few years and my disposable income has gone up, so perhaps I am biased in the wrong direction. Another factor is the greater availability of service offerings, such as anal sex, of the younger generation of girls. 5-10 years ago, I had two favorites in NYC that were $300-$400 an hour. Pretty standard services, and I liked both of them. My current favorite in NYC at $500 an hour is equally cute, but loves bondage and getting spanked in addition to the standard escort services that includes BBBJTC. A decade ago, I could just not find pretty, girls in their early 20s that offered fetishes, BBBJTC, and full service; I find this younger generation of girls to be far more open-minded and fun. So I compare the $500 to the $300-$400 and call bullshit on deflation, while forgetting that my more expensive car now has XM satellite radio with a CD player instead of just FM/AM/Cassette.

    Maybe there has not been any inflation for a standard CBJ/CFS service. As Mark a Twain said, there are lies, damned lies and statistics.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Paul View Post
    Deflation hasn't come to Montreal, at least not if you go by the Bank of Canada and my perhaps faulty memory.

    When I started, back in 1999, the typical escort rate in Montreal was just edging up to $140 an hour. Now it's hitting $200, with some holdouts still at $180 (bless them). The Bank's CPI calculator says that $140 in 1999 is equal to $190 today. In other words, not much of a change one way or the other.
    140 but no gfe... No internet , all the adds were on newspaper. Meaning for the 180 we get more service , Internet brought information so its easier to find a good quality/price for a courtisane. Rent went up , gas and electricity went up last 15 years meaning that the 40$ were to cover more for the expense than for the pocket.
    There is two type of economist , one that predicts the future and the other one that explain why the first one were wrong

    http://www.wnyc.org/story/233661-how...hadow-economy/
    GOHABSGO

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    Quote Originally Posted by Patron View Post
    Another factor is the greater availability of service offerings, such as anal sex, of the younger generation of girls. 5-10 years ago, I had two favorites in NYC that were $300-$400 an hour. Pretty standard services, and I liked both of them. My current favorite in NYC at $500 an hour is equally cute, but loves bondage and getting spanked in addition to the standard escort services that includes BBBJTC. A decade ago, I could just not find pretty, girls in their early 20s that offered fetishes, BBBJTC, and full service; I find this younger generation of girls to be far more open-minded and fun. So I compare the $500 to the $300-$400 and call bullshit on deflation, while forgetting that my more expensive car now has XM satellite radio with a CD player instead of just FM/AM/Cassette.

    Maybe there has not been any inflation for a standard CBJ/CFS service. As Mark a Twain said, there are lies, damned lies and statistics.
    Well, the level of service between generations is an odd metric.

    In the 1970s for an extra $20, young college (NYU, Hunter) girls would do BBFS. They were all on birth control and if you came inside them, well, they wouldn't flinch. Rates were $100 to $130 an hour back then in NYC. These places were well known in storefronts. You could walk into them off the street on the first floor.

    Funny, ten years ago and even before that, I could find girls that would do bbbj rather regularly in the Big Apple for $200 and less per hour. They were in their early 20's and quite attractive. I guess I knew where to go.
    So when will Hillary go to Prison?

    Only the Democrats would have a potential CONVICT as their Top Presidential Candidate. Simply Pathetic

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