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Thread: C-36 Everyone sitting on their hands witing for the first test case?

  1. #1

    C-36 Everyone sitting on their hands witing for the first test case?

    Everyone seems to be cautious, many newspapers are not advertising escorts or even massage now. I guess everyone is waiting to see what happens when the first guy gets nabbed. I am going to stay out of trouble by going to well reviewed places and places I have previously been to. I will stick to massage for now and see what the first drag nets pull in.

    Stay safe, lets be careful out there!!!!

  2. #2
    Real life law and real life law enforcement does not work the way it does on TV, where everything is wrapped up and reconciled in an hour (the one good law and order TV show that was the exception to this silliness was The Wire - sorry to digress).

    Your comment is a little like those people who say they are going to invest in stocks just as soon as the market crashes. They are quite surprised that the stock market does not immediately crash and allow them to invest their wad. And if it does crash soon after they say this, they are so scared shitless that the run and hide - later regretting that they did not in fact invest in stocks like they said they would.

    Will anyone in Canada ever get charged under a c-36 provision? Probably so. But the case will be so specific to that person, his actions, where the alleged crime took place, and facts that are not even disclosed, that following the case will be meaningless.

    C-36 adds a risk element. That risk can be managed, of course, like any risk. This activity is criminalized in most of the world, but it flourishes. A guy can give money to a woman, and a woman can consent to having sex with a guy. Escorting is legal and an agency can provide certain services for the escort. But a guy cannot offer money for sex, a guy cannot exchange money for sex, and an agency cannot be a participant in a money for sex transaction.

    It is pretty damn easy to avoid crossing the line in a manner that leaves an evidence trail, and a guy does not have to say anything that incriminates him if he is investigated. The truth is that you can search the world over and find very few instances in which a commercial sex transaction results in an arrest, if it is done correctly. Any arrests under c-36 will likely be an example of a john and/or an agency that did everything wrong and left an evidence trail, or some guy that saw a newbie that did not want to be in the business and gave plenty of signals that she was not a willing participant -like a john who deals almost exclusively with a protective pimp.

  3. #3
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    Hey guys and gals! You would probably again blame me for fear mongering but I used to rely in my business practice on hard facts not on the “feel good” sentiments that prevail in some discussions about new law on this board. I have my fare share of experience in civil courts but never was involved with criminal court. Thus I have several questions to correctly formulate my opinion on the whole situation.

    1. In accordance to the new law can court issue subpoena for SP to testify against client?
    2. What is the penalty if she refuses?
    3. How SP is going to react to such subpoena? Is she prepared to commit considerable funds to any legal advice and guidance? This question is for Indies of course.
    4. How agency will react if some of its girls are called to testify before court against customer? If they prepared to pay for legal help etc.?
    5. Under the new legislation is the first conviction stays on the record? Is this a misdemeanor (first offense) or in certain circumstances a felony?

    I would appreciate your input, especially from gals and agencies. Knowing facts is not a fear mongering, just a prudent policy as buying insurance for example.

  4. #4
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    I'm really starting to LOVE this C-36. Prices seem to be coming down and escorts are being more open offering GFE+ services. I'm actually seeing more escorts now than ever before , like its fukiin Walmart fuck fest.. Seeing one this Friday and another Sunday night. Already saw 3 hotties this past week. The cum is flying like gangbusters.

    Crazy.. VIP Models for 160$, thats what I'm talkin about.

  5. #5
    Easyguy, hopefully others will answer your detailed questions (CALLING SIOCNARF) but if you will really study the few actual prostitution cases that have been brought against john's in countries in which it is illegal, you will find that testimony of one sex partner against another is generally irrelevant even when one party is given immunity from prosecution. The crime involves sex for money, and proving that sex occurred in exchange for money is damn hard. Your questions act as though c-36 suddenly made every escort a queen whose testimony will be fully accepted by courts with no cross examination. Cases do not hinge on one person's word against another's in a civilized legal system. There has to be actual evidence. It will be responding to an ad that explicitly offers sexual services, and communicating via text and email regarding sexual services that will nail somebody, not actually sticking your dick in her after leaving her an envelope of cash on the table (even if she says you did in court).

    That having been said, I still can't fucking believe that a major agency still has an ad up stating that BBBJs are available and that anal sex is $50 extra.

    If you pay a lady $200 for purported time and companionship in response to an ad that does not mention sex, and she in fact chooses to have sex with you, the government has a hell of a burden proving sex for money, even if she testifies that sex occurred. You are not prohibited from buying her time. She is not prohibited from consenting to sex, and you did not even ask for it. I challenge anyone to point to a conviction, or even an arrest, in any western nation, for an outcall appointment using the facts I just described (absent extraordinary circumstances like unknown videotaping). It just does not happen.

    On the other hand, if you email or text her making sure that a specified list of sexual services are included in the $200, I can show you some arrests and guilty pleas (to lesser charges at least). And going back to my earlier example, if the price is $200 base but $250 for anal sex, and it can be shown through evidence or testimony that you paid $250, the prosecution is going to keep showing that ad and pointing to the fact that you must have been expecting some Anal Sex for that $50, weren't you?

    I am not telling people to not be careful, I am just trying to throw in some realism to a subject I have followed for many years. Like any activity, including speeding, most people do it but try to manage the risks. There is a difference between speeding along with the flow of heavy traffic and going faster than everyone else while giving the cop the finger while he is pointing the radar gun at you.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by bongo View Post
    I'm really starting to LOVE this C-36. Prices seem to be coming down and escorts are being more open offering GFE+ services. I'm actually seeing more escorts now than ever before , like its fukiin Walmart fuck fest.. Seeing one this Friday and another Sunday night. Already saw 3 hotties this past week. The cum is flying like gangbusters.

    Crazy.. VIP Models for 160$, thats what I'm talkin about.
    I have some real long-term economic worries about this, just like I do about the falling price of oil. Filling your gas tank up for less is a short-term benefit that might not be so great if lack of drilling in the oil sands causes a recession.

    If I am renting a house (the sex worker) to 10 Mexican immigrants (us johns) and a supply shock (c-36) causes half of those Mexican immigrants to go back to Mexico (fear of c-36), I just might drop the price for the five who stayed in hopes of attracting five new tenants to replace my lost revenue.

    In the long run, I might just do something completely different with the house than rent it to ten different tenants, if my rental rates continue to be too low. And most of the great "houses" we encounter here can find lots of buyers in various capacities other than renting. The not so great "houses" will continue to be rentals even if the rates are low in the long-term.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by easyguy View Post
    1. In accordance to the new law can court issue subpoena for SP to testify against client?
    The Crown Prosecutor issues the supoena in the name of Her Majesty.

    2. What is the penalty if she refuses?
    Contempt of court.

    5. Under the new legislation is the first conviction stays on the record? Is this a misdemeanor (first offense) or in certain circumstances a felony?
    Canada doesn't have the misdemeanor/felony distinction that is common in the USA. We have indictable and non-indictable (summary conviction) offenses. The 286.1 offense (obtaining sexual services for consideration) is a hybrid offense. The Crown, at its discretion, may proceed by indictment under 286.1(1)(a) or by summary conviction.under 286.1(b).

  8. #8
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    Thank you guys you for your very comprehensive answers. This alone convinces me that situation is probably estimated correctly by the board. Thanks for your answers Patron. My questions were related to an imaginary situation when the correspondence of the agency with clients gets into the hands of LE. Imagine that the driver or booker is stopped by the traffic police (intentionally or not intentionally) and their cell phone records are seized. Can now police subpoena girls and clients listed they can reach to testify? I understand it will be very difficult for court to prove that you actually paid for sex not for the company unless a) your booking record discusses sex details explicitly and b) the girl willingly or most probably unwillingly cooperates with LE. I fully agree that probability of such a case is very, very low but the damage would be very considerable, thus prudence is required. Therefore I also fully agree that the whole booking procedure should change both with indies and agencies. Not you no agency should explicitly mention any sexual services ever. You are booking girl for a companionship period. If the sex happens it is accidental not intentional

  9. #9
    Thanks JohnHenrygalt. Here in the States, the very, very few guys who ever get arrested (usually for soliciting a streetwalker, being in an incall place when it gets raided, or answering a bogus Backpage ad from an unreviewed provider) are allowed to take a diversion class so that the prosecution is aborted or are allowed to plead to something very minor for the first offense (such as trespassing -I guess the idea is that he was not legally allowed to be at the place where sex occurred). I presume Canada has similar prosecutorial discretion that could be applied. Although the best answer is to minimize the chance of being arrested in the first place.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patron View Post
    Easyguy, hopefully others will answer your detailed questions (CALLING SIOCNARF)
    What, why me? I know nothing I swear.
    Seriously, my understanding is that any lawyer (defense or prosecutor) can subpoena a witness and they are obligated to appear. In reality, someone else here or on TERB (I forgot) explained that prosecutors will not force a prostitute to testify against her will. Unless she's fully cooperative she probably won't say anything useful anyway and forcing a so-called victim to testify would not look good.
    “Truth, Justice, Freedom, Reasonably Priced Love.”

  11. #11
    On the positive side, I remember getting criticized on another thread when I said that generally cum in the girl's mouth unless she has told me beforehand not to. I said it was my version of don't ask, don't tell. Now if I see someone new and if I inadvertently piss her off by assuming she was okay with CIM, I can say that c-36 did not allow me to mention anything at all about sex. Heck, I thought that French as part of the time and companionship was a language lesson, I never knew if had something to do with oral sex.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by johnhenrygalt View Post
    The Crown Prosecutor issues the supoena in the name of Her Majesty.



    Contempt of court.



    Canada doesn't have the misdemeanor/felony distinction that is common in the USA. We have indictable and non-indictable (summary conviction) offenses. The 286.1 offense (obtaining sexual services for consideration) is a hybrid offense. The Crown, at its discretion, may proceed by indictment under 286.1(1)(a) or by summary conviction.under 286.1(b).
    I was wondering if the following immunity available to the provider would help her protect her client ... especially the clause "after the fact"

    286.5
    Immunity — aiding, abetting, etc.
    (2) No person shall be prosecuted for aiding, abetting, conspiring or attempting to commit an offence under any of sections 286.1 to 286.4 or being an accessory after the fact or counselling a person to be a party to such an offence, if the offence relates to the offering or provision of their own sexual services.

  13. #13
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    What this section means is that prostitutes cannot be held responsible for inducing someone to break the law. ''Accessory after the fact'' is a legal term for someone who helps a criminal avoid being arrested after his crime. So the sex worker cannot be charged for helping her client avoid the police. She can still be called to testify in court however, but it means the crown has no way to threaten her with any charges if she doesn't say what they want.
    “Truth, Justice, Freedom, Reasonably Priced Love.”

  14. #14
    All I know is that I do not want to be the test case, you will be safe if you stick to places you know.

  15. #15
    /queue gugu to tell us its all fine and we shouldn't worry

    ;-)

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