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Thread: Do you really believe in feminism?

  1. #1

    Do you really believe in feminism?

    I'm curious about this website. I see a lot of pro-decrim stuff but at the same time a lot of bemoaning of how regular women aren't interested in regular men, and how this is boosting the sex economy. I'm really curious to know men's views on female empowerment.

    Some suggested questions/sub-topics:

    When you say you respect us as escorts, would you respect us as dating prospects? Would you actually go out with an escort? Do you have any different ideas about women who are escorts compared to women who are not? (I am not really interested in your stories about dating escorts/strippers, of which this site is filled, but more your thoughts on how you deal with the idea of dating us on a moral level).

    Do you believe women are the cause of women who are escorts (i.e. of prostitution demand)?

    Do you believe that women who are escorts - and let us limit ourselves to women, as myself, who claim some sort of validation or empowerment through escorting - are actually legit when they say they get enjoyment out of it? Do you believe that these women are generally honest or deceiving?

    What is your definition of feminism? Expand. I am also especially curious about escorts' definition of feminism. I've seen a lot of definitions of feminism on Merb and in outside discussions on prostitution and I would be highly interested in knowing which one you've adoprted. (I will say I find it odd that there are so many definitions for such an - in my mind - simple concept). I would be interested in any argument related back to the decriminalization of prostitution. I guess I should say that I sometimes wonder if the pro-decrim men here are really supporting a feminist argument or their own interest.

    How do you reconcile female emancipation with the agency side of the sex trade? I know many here have all sorts of figures as to the share that goes to agents and the share that goes to escorts.... Many of you believe the great majority of earnings goes to the escorts. When you say agencies offer a service and are deserving of their share, how do you reconcile that with your understanding of sports agents (in a male dominated world)? Could you fathom a baseball player giving 50% (hey, even a lowball 30%) of his earnings to his agent? Why is that different? How does that fit in with your notion of feminism?

    What are your general feelings about when prostitution is positive and when it is negative for women? When you say that all escorts consume drugs, for instance, how do you then reconcile your activity in the trade with your idea that the majority of escorts (who would be drug users, according to some members here) are not well? If you are this sort of thinker, and believe in decriminalization, how do you reconcile these views?

    How do you define the courtisan? Why do you call some escorts courtisans? Is it because we call ourselves that or does it fit into some romantic understanding of women as empowered that predates any debate over decrim? In other words, does feminism belong to the definition of courtisan? Why? I personally consider myself as empowered but I'm interested in your ideas as to why you also believe that's the case.

    Obviously, there's some rhetorical questioning going on in this post, which is supported by the title of this thread. However, I am genuinely interested in honest responses and would greatly appreciate if all respondents considered/included their thoughts on feminism in their answer. The thread is about feminism (I may eventually offer my definition of feminism). However, I find that what I read here is often contradictory to feminism. Sometimes I read you and wonder how you actually, deep down, respect me/we.

    I am trying to see if members here - male and female - have thought through their ideas of feminism. I want to see how far the reasoning goes. If it is superficial, or if you actually have well thought-out ideas about the issues, and if it's the latter case, what those ideas are.

    Or maybe you think feminism is just a sham and women have enough rights and have taken away enough men's rights. Please feel free to express yourselves as well.

  2. #2
    Two problems. Other than some religious nuts, I am yet to meet a woman who does not say she is a feminist. Because women are so different from one another, the definition of feminism must be very broad to encompass them all. So broad in fact that it is completely meaningless.

    The other problem is that classic College / University feminism is truly controlled by intellectual women who, if you really study their backgrounds, almost never go through life with close interactions with a lot of men from various backgrounds.

    I repeat a hell of a lot with my favorite escorts, especially in the States. I get to know them pretty well and have conversations with them. A tremendous number of them tell me they have always been "one of the guys" and often got labeled as sluts (causing them to have conflicts with other girls who called them that) because they spent so much time with the guys during high school and college. Escorts view sex recreationally, and so do most men ( and virtually all johns). I have yet to hear of an academic feminist who describes that life experience. Look at Belle Knox, and the puzzled reaction she received from other women when she used the term sex-positive feminist.

    If all women (other than some religious nuts) can say they are feminists, then so can we. I am a feminist, but I like the other sex-positive ones the best.

    Ultimately, an agency provides a service to an escort and she has to determine if what they do is worthwhile. Montreal is a very unusual marketing that agency rates are less than most independent rates. I attribute this to the fact that Montreal providers are of a younger age than in most worldwide markets. I presume these are ladies from rural Quebec who move to the big city for school or jobs or adventure. Perhaps it is more worthwhile for a younger lady to pay for the services that an agency provides. I can see how many 18/19 year-olds would view this differently than a lady who is older than that.

    And yes, I would date an escort. That discussion has occurred on many separate threads.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Orange_Julep View Post
    What is your definition of feminism?
    I believe that, in a business setting, women should be treated the same as men. Women who ask for more lose my respect. I have had some women commend me after I spoke to them critically as they appreciated the equal treatment.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orange_Julep
    Could you fathom a baseball player giving 50% (hey, even a lowball 30%) of his earnings to his agent? Why is that different?
    You can't be a serious. Obviously a baseball agent doesn't have to look for a new job for his client every hour. He doesn't chauffeur him around every day that he is working.

    I can't help but wonder if I have just responded to the infamous Tony.

  4. #4
    Moi je me considère féministe.

    Mais j'aime ça comme réflexion, voyons voir là où ça ira.

  5. #5
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    The NORTH American definition of feminism is quite different from the European definition.
    In North America, a feminist is "imposing" her femininity to be treated differently than men. Most feminists in North America are NOT what a guy in North America would call "a liberated female". If they are trying to be treated equally as men under the definition, in 99.8% of the time, depending on the workplace environment, they will be traeated equally. Socially, is where the European women are different as feminists than most American/Canadian women. In Europe, they WANT to treated and will ask to be treated as females for pleasurable sex. Women ask for sex from guys openly there. A Feminist in North America when seeking sex will be nothing like that. She would blame guys for this and that and mis-directed anger towards men when all she wants is sex.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Melyssa View Post
    Moi je me considère féministe.

    Mais j'aime ça comme réflexion, voyons voir là où ça ira.
    https://youtu.be/4xhjA0RmL8o

    equal pay .... I ask equal pay for male porn actor , they should get paid as same as women in porn for the same workload ...

    Et bien je suis pour l'égalité des salaires , c'est indispensable au développement et à la réduction de la pauvreté.
    Pour le reste je suis d'avis de célébré la différence mais aussi la liberté ou autant les femmes que les hommes ont le droit d'abordé l'autre . Mais pour le tango l'homme doit mené , proposé à la femme et la femme doit suivre .
    GOHABSGO

  7. #7
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    I read somewhere that women make 70% of what men make... that is outrageous... When did we start paying them so much.
    I do not think outside the box, I do not think inside the box, I do not even know where the box is.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by anon_vlad View Post
    You can't be a serious. Obviously a baseball agent doesn't have to look for a new job for his client every hour. He doesn't chauffeur him around every day that he is working.
    I should have said artist agent.

    As for drivers (who are not agents, though they sometimes do take calls), they provide a service, which is not the same thing as representing an individual to prospective clients. This is all they (escort agents) do, just on a larger scale than artist agents, who don't find 5 movies/shoots/venues a night for their actor/model/etc. to appear in. They also have the same type of overhead costs as escort agents. Perhaps one might say they provide some sort of security if they remained on the premises after their client (the escort) was delivered.

    My question is limited to escort agents.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by anon_vlad View Post
    Women who ask for more lose my respect.
    Quote Originally Posted by azzaro View Post
    The NORTH American definition of feminism is quite different from the European definition.
    In North America, a feminist is "imposing" her femininity to be treated differently than men.
    These are the kinds of things I was expecting to hear. So, out of curiosity, in which instance are women asking to have "more" than what men have, or be treated differently? How are women treated differently (getting more benefits?) in the workplace? How do they get more than men in the workplace?

    Also, when providing your definition of feminism, it would be nice if you stuck your position There is no "North American" definition of feminism. The one you provided, however, does resemble what I read in the comment sections of numerous news organizations whenever they present stories on some subject directly or indirectly related to women's issues. Though most of the time people use aliases, I'll go out on a limb and suggest those views tend to be represented by men.

    This is not to say that some men are not feminists. I know many men, including clients, who do not view feminism as women trying to get "more" than men.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patron View Post
    Two problems. Other than some religious nuts, I am yet to meet a woman who does not say she is a feminist. Because women are so different from one another, the definition of feminism must be very broad to encompass them all. So broad in fact that it is completely meaningless.
    There are quite a lot of woman who do not and some who are anti-feminist. Most woman call themselves feminist, but it's just a meaningless label. Being branded as a feminist is the ''proper'' thing to be, but most of them don't spend 5 minutes actually thinking about the movement or issues. The feminists who have actual power are the radical ones. The ones pushing for bad laws like the swedish model. Anti-feminists like Karen Straughan are against the label feminist, because when you call yourself a feminist you give your tacit support to the ones that are in power. In our society the label feminist is useless. Better call yourself an egalitarian or humanist. Women have achieved equality in our society, but movements never disband after they attain their goals. They just try to find more things to do.

    I am not interested in a relationship, but if I was I would like to be with a sex worker or ex-worker.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sol Tee Nutz View Post
    I read somewhere that women make 70% of what men make... that is outrageous... When did we start paying them so much.
    Actually that statistic is misleading. When you factor in the number of hours worked, the time of commute, and all the details of the job, there is no difference. A lot of men still have the necessity of being the provider and they will often choose the job that pays the most, even if it's a 2h commute and 3 times the stress level. Many women will choose the job with the best conditions, that is most satisfying to them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orange_Julep View Post
    Many of you believe the great majority of earnings goes to the escorts. When you say agencies offer a service and are deserving of their share, how do you reconcile that with your understanding of sports agents (in a male dominated world)?
    Singer or actor's agent would be more appropriate. For sports, once the athlete has a contract with a team the agent doesn't have much to do. The music agent is constantly negotiating deals to get gigs for their artist, trying to get them the best venues and festivals. And it depends on the level of competence of the agent. I've heard that some of them get 40%. Is what your agent taking resonnable compared to what he brings to the table? Only you can answer that.
    “Truth, Justice, Freedom, Reasonably Priced Love.”

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Siocnarf View Post
    Women have achieved equality in our society

  12. #12
    I don't have time to answer all the questions, but here's a few ones.

    First of all I consider myself feminist, as I believe in equal treatment of men and women. The main thing that bugs me here is the over objectification of women and mysoginy that is felt through some posters/comments. By the way, the comments don't need to be nasty to adhere to those qualifications.

    As for agencies, I think that if they treat the girls well, they have to take a cut. 50% is way too much, but 20-25 seems fair, as the agency does the booking, driving, and pays for website, pictures and marketting. It provides the SW with a service that not all want to do for themselves. For those indies who do, great!

    More later maybe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Orange_Julep View Post
    You're right, I should have said you currently have more legal rights than man.

    Equality means people have the same rights, not that they get the same results. What you do with your life is up to you.
    “Truth, Justice, Freedom, Reasonably Priced Love.”

  14. #14
    What additional legal rights do women have in the workplace, or anywhere really?

    Please guys, be specific when you explain your version of feminism as giving MORE to women than what men already have

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Wallseye View Post
    I don't have time to answer all the questions, but here's a few ones.

    First of all I consider myself feminist, as I believe in equal treatment of men and women. The main thing that bugs me here is the over objectification of women and mysoginy that is felt through some posters/comments. By the way, the comments don't need to be nasty to adhere to those qualifications.

    As for agencies, I think that if they treat the girls well, they have to take a cut. 50% is way too much, but 20-25 seems fair, as the agency does the booking, driving, and pays for website, pictures and marketting. It provides the SW with a service that not all want to do for themselves. For those indies who do, great!

    More later maybe.
    Thanks Wallseye. I think I can agree that a 20-25% cut would seem more fair, especially considering the volume. Please do offer more comments later.

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