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Do you really believe in feminism?

Orange_Julep

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I'm curious about this website. I see a lot of pro-decrim stuff but at the same time a lot of bemoaning of how regular women aren't interested in regular men, and how this is boosting the sex economy. I'm really curious to know men's views on female empowerment.

Some suggested questions/sub-topics:

When you say you respect us as escorts, would you respect us as dating prospects? Would you actually go out with an escort? Do you have any different ideas about women who are escorts compared to women who are not? (I am not really interested in your stories about dating escorts/strippers, of which this site is filled, but more your thoughts on how you deal with the idea of dating us on a moral level).

Do you believe women are the cause of women who are escorts (i.e. of prostitution demand)?

Do you believe that women who are escorts - and let us limit ourselves to women, as myself, who claim some sort of validation or empowerment through escorting - are actually legit when they say they get enjoyment out of it? Do you believe that these women are generally honest or deceiving?

What is your definition of feminism? Expand. I am also especially curious about escorts' definition of feminism. I've seen a lot of definitions of feminism on Merb and in outside discussions on prostitution and I would be highly interested in knowing which one you've adoprted. (I will say I find it odd that there are so many definitions for such an - in my mind - simple concept). I would be interested in any argument related back to the decriminalization of prostitution. I guess I should say that I sometimes wonder if the pro-decrim men here are really supporting a feminist argument or their own interest.

How do you reconcile female emancipation with the agency side of the sex trade? I know many here have all sorts of figures as to the share that goes to agents and the share that goes to escorts.... Many of you believe the great majority of earnings goes to the escorts. When you say agencies offer a service and are deserving of their share, how do you reconcile that with your understanding of sports agents (in a male dominated world)? Could you fathom a baseball player giving 50% (hey, even a lowball 30%) of his earnings to his agent? Why is that different? How does that fit in with your notion of feminism?

What are your general feelings about when prostitution is positive and when it is negative for women? When you say that all escorts consume drugs, for instance, how do you then reconcile your activity in the trade with your idea that the majority of escorts (who would be drug users, according to some members here) are not well? If you are this sort of thinker, and believe in decriminalization, how do you reconcile these views?

How do you define the courtisan? Why do you call some escorts courtisans? Is it because we call ourselves that or does it fit into some romantic understanding of women as empowered that predates any debate over decrim? In other words, does feminism belong to the definition of courtisan? Why? I personally consider myself as empowered but I'm interested in your ideas as to why you also believe that's the case.

Obviously, there's some rhetorical questioning going on in this post, which is supported by the title of this thread. However, I am genuinely interested in honest responses and would greatly appreciate if all respondents considered/included their thoughts on feminism in their answer. The thread is about feminism (I may eventually offer my definition of feminism). However, I find that what I read here is often contradictory to feminism. Sometimes I read you and wonder how you actually, deep down, respect me/we.

I am trying to see if members here - male and female - have thought through their ideas of feminism. I want to see how far the reasoning goes. If it is superficial, or if you actually have well thought-out ideas about the issues, and if it's the latter case, what those ideas are.

Or maybe you think feminism is just a sham and women have enough rights and have taken away enough men's rights. Please feel free to express yourselves as well.
 

anon_vlad

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What is your definition of feminism?
I believe that, in a business setting, women should be treated the same as men. Women who ask for more lose my respect. I have had some women commend me after I spoke to them critically as they appreciated the equal treatment.

Orange_Julep said:
Could you fathom a baseball player giving 50% (hey, even a lowball 30%) of his earnings to his agent? Why is that different?
You can't be a serious. Obviously a baseball agent doesn't have to look for a new job for his client every hour. He doesn't chauffeur him around every day that he is working.

I can't help but wonder if I have just responded to the infamous Tony.
 

Melyssa

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Moi je me considère féministe.

Mais j'aime ça comme réflexion, voyons voir là où ça ira.
 

azzaro

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The NORTH American definition of feminism is quite different from the European definition.
In North America, a feminist is "imposing" her femininity to be treated differently than men. Most feminists in North America are NOT what a guy in North America would call "a liberated female". If they are trying to be treated equally as men under the definition, in 99.8% of the time, depending on the workplace environment, they will be traeated equally. Socially, is where the European women are different as feminists than most American/Canadian women. In Europe, they WANT to treated and will ask to be treated as females for pleasurable sex. Women ask for sex from guys openly there. A Feminist in North America when seeking sex will be nothing like that. She would blame guys for this and that and mis-directed anger towards men when all she wants is sex.
 

marc7

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Moi je me considère féministe.

Mais j'aime ça comme réflexion, voyons voir là où ça ira.

https://youtu.be/4xhjA0RmL8o

equal pay .... I ask equal pay for male porn actor , they should get paid as same as women in porn for the same workload ... ;)

Et bien je suis pour l'égalité des salaires , c'est indispensable au développement et à la réduction de la pauvreté.
Pour le reste je suis d'avis de célébré la différence mais aussi la liberté ou autant les femmes que les hommes ont le droit d'abordé l'autre . Mais pour le tango l'homme doit mené , proposé à la femme et la femme doit suivre .
 

Sol Tee Nutz

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Look behind you.
I read somewhere that women make 70% of what men make... that is outrageous... When did we start paying them so much.
 

Orange_Julep

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You can't be a serious. Obviously a baseball agent doesn't have to look for a new job for his client every hour. He doesn't chauffeur him around every day that he is working.

I should have said artist agent.

As for drivers (who are not agents, though they sometimes do take calls), they provide a service, which is not the same thing as representing an individual to prospective clients. This is all they (escort agents) do, just on a larger scale than artist agents, who don't find 5 movies/shoots/venues a night for their actor/model/etc. to appear in. They also have the same type of overhead costs as escort agents. Perhaps one might say they provide some sort of security if they remained on the premises after their client (the escort) was delivered.

My question is limited to escort agents.
 

Orange_Julep

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Women who ask for more lose my respect.

The NORTH American definition of feminism is quite different from the European definition.
In North America, a feminist is "imposing" her femininity to be treated differently than men.

These are the kinds of things I was expecting to hear. So, out of curiosity, in which instance are women asking to have "more" than what men have, or be treated differently? How are women treated differently (getting more benefits?) in the workplace? How do they get more than men in the workplace?

Also, when providing your definition of feminism, it would be nice if you stuck your position ;) There is no "North American" definition of feminism. The one you provided, however, does resemble what I read in the comment sections of numerous news organizations whenever they present stories on some subject directly or indirectly related to women's issues. Though most of the time people use aliases, I'll go out on a limb and suggest those views tend to be represented by men.

This is not to say that some men are not feminists. I know many men, including clients, who do not view feminism as women trying to get "more" than men.
 

Siocnarf

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Two problems. Other than some religious nuts, I am yet to meet a woman who does not say she is a feminist. Because women are so different from one another, the definition of feminism must be very broad to encompass them all. So broad in fact that it is completely meaningless.

There are quite a lot of woman who do not and some who are anti-feminist. Most woman call themselves feminist, but it's just a meaningless label. Being branded as a feminist is the ''proper'' thing to be, but most of them don't spend 5 minutes actually thinking about the movement or issues. The feminists who have actual power are the radical ones. The ones pushing for bad laws like the swedish model. Anti-feminists like Karen Straughan are against the label feminist, because when you call yourself a feminist you give your tacit support to the ones that are in power. In our society the label feminist is useless. Better call yourself an egalitarian or humanist. Women have achieved equality in our society, but movements never disband after they attain their goals. They just try to find more things to do.

I am not interested in a relationship, but if I was I would like to be with a sex worker or ex-worker.

I read somewhere that women make 70% of what men make... that is outrageous... When did we start paying them so much.

Actually that statistic is misleading. When you factor in the number of hours worked, the time of commute, and all the details of the job, there is no difference. A lot of men still have the necessity of being the provider and they will often choose the job that pays the most, even if it's a 2h commute and 3 times the stress level. Many women will choose the job with the best conditions, that is most satisfying to them.

Many of you believe the great majority of earnings goes to the escorts. When you say agencies offer a service and are deserving of their share, how do you reconcile that with your understanding of sports agents (in a male dominated world)?

Singer or actor's agent would be more appropriate. For sports, once the athlete has a contract with a team the agent doesn't have much to do. The music agent is constantly negotiating deals to get gigs for their artist, trying to get them the best venues and festivals. And it depends on the level of competence of the agent. I've heard that some of them get 40%. Is what your agent taking resonnable compared to what he brings to the table? Only you can answer that.
 

Siocnarf

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:lol: :lol: :lol:

You're right, I should have said you currently have more legal rights than man.

Equality means people have the same rights, not that they get the same results. What you do with your life is up to you.
 

Orange_Julep

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What additional legal rights do women have in the workplace, or anywhere really?

Please guys, be specific when you explain your version of feminism as giving MORE to women than what men already have :smile:
 

Orange_Julep

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I don't have time to answer all the questions, but here's a few ones.

First of all I consider myself feminist, as I believe in equal treatment of men and women. The main thing that bugs me here is the over objectification of women and mysoginy that is felt through some posters/comments. By the way, the comments don't need to be nasty to adhere to those qualifications.

As for agencies, I think that if they treat the girls well, they have to take a cut. 50% is way too much, but 20-25 seems fair, as the agency does the booking, driving, and pays for website, pictures and marketting. It provides the SW with a service that not all want to do for themselves. For those indies who do, great!

More later maybe.

Thanks Wallseye. I think I can agree that a 20-25% cut would seem more fair, especially considering the volume. Please do offer more comments later.
 

azzaro

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These are the kinds of things I was expecting to hear. So, out of curiosity, in which instance are women asking to have "more" than what men have, or be treated differently? How are women treated differently (getting more benefits?) in the workplace? How do they get more than men in the workplace?

Also, when providing your definition of feminism, it would be nice if you stuck your position ;) There is no "North American" definition of feminism. The one you provided, however, does resemble what I read in the comment sections of numerous news organizations whenever they present stories on some subject directly or indirectly related to women's issues. Though most of the time people use aliases, I'll go out on a limb and suggest those views tend to be represented by men.

This is not to say that some men are not feminists. I know many men, including clients, who do not view feminism as women trying to get "more" than men.

I said "imposing" NOT "more". Men in workplace WILL act diffrently to a feminist attitude in NORTH AMERICA. Females do NOT get more or less pay than men for being a female. THAT is a ridiculous statistic and a total MYTH. If you are talking about the glass ceiling, well women just can't be CEO just for being female. Discrimination against women DOES NOT exist in Corporate AMERICA in the open. Maybe in some hick towns in hick jobs but not in companies that are out there to make a profit.

PLUS as I wrote before, since women in Europe ASK GUYS for sex a lot in EUROPE (as women should, being equal), and in North America women do NOT, the respect ANY men have for women (feminists or not) is quite diminished on the social scene.
 

gugu

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I read somewhere that women make 70% of what men make...

They earn less but are paid the same for the same job. The trend has flipped for the youngest generation however, younger women being more educated than men. And this trend is here to stay. Sweeden stopped their "positive discrimination" programs in 2010 because men started to benefit from them.

I'm an equity feminist, like Christina Hoff Summers, Warren Farrell and what Karen Straughen and most men's rights activists obviously are. They thing that we have acheived equity in countries like Canada. Men and women rights are exactly the same. Some discrimination persists: women in few top earning jobs are discriminated against when they decide to have children. Men are discriminated against in the justice system: divorce (alimonies, right to see their kids), length of imprisonment for the same crime, etc. We talk a lot of the "feminisation of poverty". I don't believe it's true.

Women have gained the exclusive control of the species reproduction in the sixties with the advent of the pill. It's huge, civilization changing. We have yet to see where it will lead us. I'm not saying it's bad nor good. Just that the world will never be the same in its most fundamental aspect: reproduction.

I hate the extreme left wing (and I am left wing) "women as a class" of damsels in distress feminism. They ruin everything.
 

Siocnarf

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Please guys, be specific when you explain your version of feminism as giving MORE to women than what men already have :smile:

Most of the legal rights nowadays are gender neutral, but women have a few specific ones.

Women have the legal right to choose parenthood or not. If the woman gets pregnant, even without the men's consent, the men has no legal right to decide and will have to pay child support. Even when the child is not his, an husband can be forced to pay for it or go to jail.

Women gained the right to vote without the obligation of getting conscripted and killed in a war.

In the workplace and in college some places have gender quotas, always in favor of increasing the number of women. Plus they have some special scholarships for women.

In criminal law, the prosecution and sentencing of women for identical crimes is much more lenient compared to men.

There are plenty of advantage and inconvenients to either sex, but the point is that you can't say women have less rights. In the whole of human history there has never been a group as cuddled as the present-day occidental women. My main problem with present-day feminism is that they fight for more rights, but not for the responsibilities that go with it. The end-results are laws where women are treated like children.
 

PopeDover

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Excellent questions Orange Julep! Thanks for starting this thread, I hope it remains civil as these can be some hot button issues (understatement?).

With that being said, here are a few quotes I completely agree with from the brilliant mind of Camille Paglia, the feminist that many feminists seem to hate :confused:


I consider myself 100 percent a feminist, at odds with the feminist establishment in America.

Let's get rid of Infirmary Feminism, with its bedlam of bellyachers, anorexics, bulimics, depressives, rape victims, and incest survivors. Feminism has become a catch-all vegetable drawer where bunches of clingy sob sisters can store their moldy neuroses.

It is woman's destiny to rule men. Not to serve them, flatter them, or hang on them for guidance. Nor to insult them, demean them, or stereotype them as oppressors.

We cannot have a world where everyone is a victim. "I'm this way because my father made me this way. I'm this way because my husband made me this way." Yes, we are indeed formed by tramas that happen to us. But you must take charge, you must take over, you are responsible.

If middle class feminists think they conduct their love lives perfectly rationally, without any instinctual influences from biology, they are imbeciles.

Leaving sex to the feminists is like letting your dog vacation at the taxidermist.

Old school feminism, coveting social power, is blind to woman's cosmic sexual power.

The prostitute is not, as feminists claim, the victim of men, but rather their conqueror, an outlaw, who controls the sexual channels between nature and culture.

The prostitute has come to symbolize for me the ultimate liberated woman, who lives on the edge and whose sexuality belongs to no one.


:amen:
 

FunSexyMan

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I'm going to take a shot at answering the questions asked by Orange_Julep

When you say you respect us as escorts, would you respect us as dating prospects? Would you actually go out with an escort? Do you have any different ideas about women who are escorts compared to women who are not? (I am not really interested in your stories about dating escorts/strippers, of which this site is filled, but more your thoughts on how you deal with the idea of dating us on a moral level).

Based on the concept of morality of whether I would date an escort, I don't see why I shouldn't. Whether a person is an escort or not, it should be based that I truly like and want to be with that individual.

Do you believe women are the cause of women who are escorts (i.e. of prostitution demand)?

Not at all. Having women seen as the cause of woman who are escorts doesn't make sense to me. The wants/needs of men to have sexual and/or romantic encounters is what fuels the demands of prostitutions.

Do you believe that women who are escorts - and let us limit ourselves to women, as myself, who claim some sort of validation or empowerment through escorting - are actually legit when they say they get enjoyment out of it? Do you believe that these women are generally honest or deceiving?

Of course I would believe claims that escorts get enjoyment out of this occupation. I would believe that most are generally honest about it.

What is your definition of feminism? Expand. I am also especially curious about escorts' definition of feminism. I've seen a lot of definitions of feminism on Merb and in outside discussions on prostitution and I would be highly interested in knowing which one you've adoprted. (I will say I find it odd that there are so many definitions for such an - in my mind - simple concept). I would be interested in any argument related back to the decriminalization of prostitution. I guess I should say that I sometimes wonder if the pro-decrim men here are really supporting a feminist argument or their own interest.

As for my definition of what I see as Feminism, it is about equality of all individuals, whether its based on ones gender, culture, and ethnicity.

How do you reconcile female emancipation with the agency side of the sex trade? I know many here have all sorts of figures as to the share that goes to agents and the share that goes to escorts.... Many of you believe the great majority of earnings goes to the escorts. When you say agencies offer a service and are deserving of their share, how do you reconcile that with your understanding of sports agents (in a male dominated world)? Could you fathom a baseball player giving 50% (hey, even a lowball 30%) of his earnings to his agent? Why is that different? How does that fit in with your notion of feminism?

This is where I have a bit of an issues with agencies. I do agree that the portion of earnings taken by an agency should be at most 25%. Granted this is why I started in this hobby with seeing Independents. I prefer the idea that the money I donate goes completely to that individual I'm spending my time with.

What are your general feelings about when prostitution is positive and when it is negative for women? When you say that all escorts consume drugs, for instance, how do you then reconcile your activity in the trade with your idea that the majority of escorts (who would be drug users, according to some members here) are not well? If you are this sort of thinker, and believe in decriminalization, how do you reconcile these views?

I'm still new to this hobby and only seen a couple of ladies. So far my impression that all escorts are taking drugs is not true. Granted, In any occupation, individuals will have positive and/or negative experiences. I'm not naive to say that any woman who goes into escorting is only having positive experiences.

How do you define the courtisan? Why do you call some escorts courtisans? Is it because we call ourselves that or does it fit into some romantic understanding of women as empowered that predates any debate over decrim? In other words, does feminism belong to the definition of courtisan? Why? I personally consider myself as empowered but I'm interested in your ideas as to why you also believe that's the case.

I see a courtesan who is an independent who focuses more on the sensual and intimate experience of their clients than on the sexual expereinces. There is a character named Inara Serra in the sci-fi show Firefly that embodies what I see as I courtesan. She's someone who I see as some who is empowered by her independence. http://firefly.wikia.com/wiki/Inara_Serra
 

tiannas

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I don't really consider myself a feminist. Perhaps 20 years ago, when there was a true need for women's equality in the workplace and society, I did believe myself to be one then, but not so much anymore. I am comfortable with the rights and privileges I have now, and I do not desire any special treatment. I don't know much about the modern feminist except that they seem to dislike men, to despise prostitution, to be convinced that I am a victim. Of course nothing could be farther from the truth. When I leave a session after 2/3 orgasms and a pocketful of cash, who is the winner? I resent anyone who tries to take away my right to choose, including the choice to sell my sexual services, which I happen to find liberating and empowering.
I think we need to be careful to maintain the equality of women already achieved in North America but I don't see what today's feminists are looking to accomplish now?
 
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