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Another mass shooting in the USA

smuler

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Mar 18, 2005
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I'm sure I'm opening up a can of worms...

This shit gotta stop !!!

As I'm writing this, it looks like they got one guy in a hail of bullets

He's laying dead in the middle of the street..

And I'm pulling into LA Friday morning on the way to San Diego :yield:

My thoughts are with the dead people's families

14 dead, with many injured

Best Regards

Smuler
 

hungry101

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Oct 29, 2007
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This one is interesting. The last report was that the shooters got away which is non-typical. But now It appears that they caught at least one of the shoorters. I am watching the news and there is a dark SUV shot to hell. I am wondering what the fucked-up motive is for this one?
 

talkinghead

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Aug 15, 2007
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When will that stop ? Weapons don't kill... it's the hand that hold the weapon who kills people... But if we could make their life tougher... No ?

Obviously I write as Canadian... What do our American cousin think about it, as they are directly concerned ?

There is only one answer to the extraordinary prevalence of gun violence, and we all know what it is. All serious studies arrive at the same conclusion, and there is no debate among those who have examined the statistics. The answer is both obvious and persuasive. We can dramatically reduce these events, but there is no political will and, as we know, the NRA has extraordinary power. If the Sandy Hook massacre of 20 (twenty, twenty, twenty) young children couldn't bring America to its senses, it's hard to imagine today's bloodbath will.
 

CaptRenault

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There is only one answer..and we all know what it is. All serious studies arrive at the same conclusion, and there is no debate among those who have examined the statistics. The answer is both obvious and persuasive...

And THE answer is?
 

CaptRenault

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I don't think we know whether the title of this thread is accurate. It's possible that the thread title should be "Another Islamic Terror Attack in the USA." We don't have enough information yet, but it's possible.
 

RobinX

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Aug 30, 2009
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And THE answer is?

In case you missed it, the answer is in black and white in the article cited a couple of posts before yours:

If we truly care about this ... we have to do something about the easy accessibility of weapons of war on our streets to people who have no business wielding them. Period. Enough is enough.
 
L

Lily-Rose

I don't think we know whether the title of this thread is accurate. It's possible that the thread title should be "Another Islamic Terror Attack in the USA." We don't have enough information yet, but it's possible.

Possible. Mais il me semble que si c'était le cas, ça ferait longtemps qu'on le saurait, non?

Cela dit, c'est vraiment long avant qu'on nous dévoile l'identité des deux suspects.
 

CaptRenault

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Possible. Mais il me semble que si c'était le cas, ça ferait longtemps qu'on le saurait, non?

Cela dit, c'est vraiment long avant qu'on nous dévoile l'identité des deux suspects.

Well, LR, the police are trying hard not to jump to conclusions about whether the killers were motivated by personal reasons or terrorism or some weird combination of both. There are a lot of witnesses to interview and lots of other evidence to evaluate. There might still be a third suspect not yet in custody. I think there will be another update from police in a little while.
 

EagerBeaver

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This act appears at this time to have been a possible terrorist act. Regardless of that, I don't believe these types of shootings can be stopped. Politicians will have you believe that enactment of various laws will cause a stoppage and then everything will be wonderful. If you believe them, you are a sheep. The truth is, there will always be black markets for weapons and bombs. There always have been and always will be, and terrorists and criminals who want to perform criminal acts will always be able to perpetrate them.

It's also not possible or feasible to post a police officer at every building in California, New York or Quebec. That is not going to happen.

So basically you have to hope that your place of employment isn't the next target, and hope that your coworker sitting next to you who has an axe to grind with the boss isn't going to bring an M60 to the office and shoot the place up. If that happens, chances are you will be on your own and the only person who will be able to help you is you.
 

talkinghead

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Aug 15, 2007
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There are actually a lot of close psychological connections between isolated mass shootings from disillusioned angry young men and attacks associated with Islamic terrorism. Like most problems there are not any simple solutions.

Gun control is just one component. It does not address the fundamental reasons that this happens. You can make the argument that limiting the guns they use will help reduce the body count, and I do not entirely disagree with that. But the question occurs as to how many guns you remove from the hands of hunters and sportsmen, and how many guns you take out if the hands of law abiding folks.

The fundamental problem is the abundance of people, primarily young men, who not only feel they have nothing to live for, but are programmed to blame others for their misery. The lack of jobs, lack of romantic, sexual, cultural of educational outlets, and lack of family and community creates a lot of candidates for this abhorrent behavior. And it gets strengthened by the Internet which have sites that glorifies and encourages this way of thinking.

There are a lot of candidates to be radicalized in the Middle East, and it happens a lot. The life of a young man is terrible in a country in which all of the wealth, power and enjoyment of life goes to a very few families involved with oil, and the education and social interaction opportunities with members of the opposite sex are limited. The religious sheik tells them the Western World is to blame for their unhappiness and you get jihad. Unfortunately, much of the same happens in impoverished Muslim neighborhoods outside of the Middle East. Throw in the Internet as a marketing tool and you have the hell that exists today.

The life of a few disillusioned mentally-ill American male loners is not that much different than those recruited into Islamic fundamentalism. He does not believe that 72 virgins will be awaiting him in paradise, but the other mental illness is there. He has a shit life, thinks everyone else has it great, blames his misery on the rest of society, wants to die and wants to a lot of people out with him.

Most everyone on this board can list dozens of things they have that they enjoy in life and that they are looking forward to in the future. The mass shooters and jihadists are so different from sane people that it is hard to even begin to understand their way of thinking.

I think it happens in the U.S. more than in other countries because the differences in wealth and the economic and social divisions are so large. Sure Canadians have less access to guns, but I also believe there are fewer disillusioned young men in Canada that are cut off from civilization and rational thought. On the other hand, it is harder to accumulate significant wealth in Canada than it is in the U.S. largely as a result of Canada not leaving as many people behind. And I am not convinced that the wealthiest in the U.S. are willing to expend resources to minimize the number of potential gunmen. So I think the problem is more than guns, and that it is here to stay, unfortunately .

Exactly. Gun control is obvious and every single bit of data supports that approach. (Hunters don't need the military-style assault weapons that are being used in these shootings.) But a more equitable distribution of wealth, more economic opportunities, and a more inclusive cultural philosophy is important as well.
 

saltydog

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It was an act of terror that they are doing all they can to label "work place violence". No amount of new laws will stop violence. If laws worked, there would be no drugs nor any prostitution. It is individual self control that keeps society safe. Unfortunately we are seeing less and less of it.
 

EagerBeaver

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This is being reported as a terrorist act by radicalized individuals. There is nothing that could have been done to stop this it's just like the recent attacks in Paris. The victims like the ones in Paris were in the wrong place at the wrong time. People at concerts and Christmas Parties don't expect to get blown away with assault rifles but that is what happened in Paris and in San Bernardino. It could be your community next. There is really not much any government can do to stop these attacks. Honestly citizens will have to be on their toes and vigilant and go on the counterattack if another attack happens.
 

hungry101

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Oct 29, 2007
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You are right EB. The funny thing is that a neighbor or landlord to these two Jihadists made some comment that she knew something was going on but she was afraid to call the police about her suspicion because she felt she was being racist. This couple had a bomb factory in their house and the neighbor was worried about political correctness. Political correctness is going to be the death of this nation.

The only thing more gun control will do is make the leftists feel good. Guns will be removed from law abiding citizens and then we will all be like helpless lambs. I have a CPL and I practice weekly. The problem is that I cannot carry at work and I cannot carry in a gun free zone. Please notice that most (if not all) of these shooting happen in gun free zones. This is no coincidence. The killers are well aware that there will be no one around who can shoot back. One answer is get rid of gun free zones or rename them shooting galleries.

Another answer is to stop giving these shooters the infamy they so crave. Treat them the same way the networks treat streekers at football and soccer matches. Do not show them! Do not show their face do not mention their cause. Do not interview their neighbors or friends and relatives for the 24-hour news. Do not make public their jihad tape or read their suicide note. Most of these acts are committed by losers who will gain more fame in their death than they ever would in their miserable lives. So let's stop giving them the infamy they so desire.
 
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Gee and this increase in violence has occurred on Obama's watch? Do tell?
 

RobinX

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Gun control is just one component. It does not address the fundamental reasons that this happens. ...

I think it happens in the U.S. more than in other countries because the differences in wealth and the economic and social divisions are so large. ... So I think the problem is more than guns, and that it is here to stay, unfortunately .

Actually, the stats do not support this theory. Of the top 10 countries with the worst income inequality[SUP]1[/SUP] there are only two which have a very high rate of gun violence[SUP]2[/SUP] - The US and Mexico. The others have very low rates of gun violence, including the UK and Japan, which have some of the very lowest rates of gun violence in the world. What makes the difference is gun controls. In fact, there is a direct relationship between the lack of gun controls, the level of firearms ownership and the level of gun violence[SUP]3[/SUP]. Japan is a classic example, having one of the highest levels of income inequality, the strictest gun controls, and one of the lowest rates of gun violence in the world.[SUP]4[/SUP]

References:
1. http://www.therichest.com/rich-list/poorest-list/10-countries-with-the-worst-income-inequality - 10 Countries With The Worst Income Inequality
2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate - List of countries by firearm-related death rate
3. http://www.cfr.org/society-and-culture/us-gun-policy-global-comparisons/p29735 - U.S. Gun Policy: Global Comparisons
4. http://www.theatlantic.com/internat...-virtually-eliminated-shooting-deaths/260189/ - A Land Without Guns: How Japan Has Virtually Eliminated Shooting Deaths
 

talkinghead

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Actually, the stats do not support this theory. Of the top 10 countries with the worst income inequality[SUP]1[/SUP] there are only two which have a very high rate of gun violence[SUP]2[/SUP] - The US and Mexico. The others have very low rates of gun violence, including the UK and Japan, which have some of the very lowest rates of gun violence in the world. What makes the difference is gun controls. In fact, there is a direct relationship between the lack of gun controls, the level of firearms ownership and the level of gun violence[SUP]3[/SUP]. Japan is a classic example, having one of the highest levels of income inequality, the strictest gun controls, and one of the lowest rates of gun violence in the world.[SUP]4[/SUP]

Right. Literally ALL the evidence points to the same conclusion: better gun control = less gun violence. Among those who have looked at the data, there is no debate. The notion that somehow more guns will somehow lead to safety is not only nonsensical, it's contradicted by virtually every study ever done. We can debate "rights" all we want, but in the end there is only one approach that is proven effective. It's like the "debate" about childhood vaccinations; talking about "parental rights" etc is fine in the abstract, but we know that requiring vaccinations results in the dramatic reduction of many debilitating diseases.
 

EagerBeaver

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Yes background checks and that is what everybody is talking about will help some but the big issue is the character of the people. I don't know how you fix that. And as eh said there will always be a black market for the non law abomperson to get the weapon they want.

That is right. You cannot stop these kinds of attacks and the notion that gun control will suddenly lead to peace and love is absurd naïveté since these weapons can easily be bought on the black markets. Did C36 stop prostitution in Quebec????? IMHO gun control laws, while pacifying the victims, will have less deterrent effect than C36 did on prostitution in Quebec. Only sheep believe that these kinds of laws are effective at anything in regards to well financed terrorists. First of all laws have to be enforced adequately and secondly if they are enforced it's economics 101 that the black markets will then flourish. When you consider the amount of money being used by ISIS the purchase price of a few assault rifles is a drop in the bucket.

This discussion is a waste of time because there is NOTHING that can be done to stop these attacks. They will continue. And whether any of us get killed in one will depend on whether we happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time just like Richard Rogers was in the right place at the right time when he caught that winning TD pass in the end zone for the Packers last night.
 
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