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Thread: Basic Income

  1. #1

    Basic Income

    Just curious what everyone thinks of this?

    http://www.commondreams.org/views/20...-across-europe

    The idea is that it would not be as expensive as a person might think since it would come with an elimination of the massive government welfare systems.

    Some say it would be a disincentive to work, but most people work for something beyond just the most basic of an existence.

  2. #2
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    Just my opinion but I can see no good come of this ( to us tax payers ). Ontario is thinking of this and if Ontario likes it the cost will be extreme and not very well thought out plus the deserving will not get it only the people who know how to milk the system will reap the rewards.
    I can see no good of giving certain people more money for doing nothing, it will give zero incentive to get ahead on your own. Phasing out welfare to give others more money than before can not be good for tax payers, good for the people with hands out yes.
    Shake my head when our government brainchilds where people can pee or making it a law so you can not call someone a faggot or queer ( never do but really, do you need a law for that ), changing the child tax credits so 6 kid families ( certain groups ) make a killing and others getting cuts and giving billions to other countries and we have enough of our own worries, sunny days ahead though. A socialist society does not work when the tax payers run out of money or leave.
    Again, just my opinion.
    My rant for the day... Carry on.
    I do not think outside the box, I do not think inside the box, I do not even know where the box is.

  3. #3
    As an business entrepreneur I feel exactly like STN. Give money to someone for not working can assure you that indeed he will not work! History as proven that socialist society does not work. Capitalism is the only choice that works, as bad as it is.

    That said I do understand that we need to think we may have no choice to reach a level where we will go to a "sharing economy", basic income and purely socialist society. Why? The planet will not be able to handle constant growth. If China and india ever reach the level of living of american people forget it!

    The worst is most american (I include canadians here) still deny that we are truly killing our planet. They only think of themselve. Not about their kids, or perhaps the kids of their kids. With everything automized and the impossibility to further exploit our natural resource, we will reach a point where there is just not enough jobs for everyone!

    One day we will have no choice to make radical change because we will have no choice. And making change is never easy. Everyone thinks only about their own little self, not about others..

    Cheers,

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by jalimon View Post
    If China and india ever reach the level of living of american people forget it!
    I heard that economy isn't going very well in China this year. As someone who lived there before, I don't see they will reach that level.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by jalimon View Post
    If China and india ever reach the level of living of american people forget it!


    Cheers,
    Interesting point, especially on Memorial Day. Every thinking person wondered why we were trained as kids that we may someday have to go to war with Russia and/or China because they practiced the evil Communism. If that is (and it in fact is) a less efficient economic system, why the hell would we want to convert them to a more efficient one that would consume more scarce resources.

    It was of course because a militaristic communist state was a danger in that it would simply conquer lands that had scarce natural resources. I talked a lot to an older Vietnam veteran when we were trying to use the bus system to get across the country the evening of September 11, 2001 (so the topic of conversation was war) and he said the waters off of Vietnam has a lot of oil and he reckoned at the time that was why he and so many of his generation were sent there. Otherwise, had could not figure out why we needed the Vietnamese to be capitalists.

    I guess there is a be careful what you wish for, you just might get it, element to China becoming highly economically efficient.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by jalimon View Post
    As an business entrepreneur I feel exactly like STN. Give money to someone for not working can assure you that indeed he will not work! History as proven that socialist society does not work. Capitalism is the only choice that works, as bad as it is.
    Really and how did you come to that conclusion? Huge corporations that run everything using their powers to exploit their employees and rob their customers? I mean prices keep on going up and up and salaries are essentially stagnant. The economy has been on a steady recession since the early 80's. Corporations using unethical practices to make profits. Capitalism is bullshit and governments serve the interests of corporations not the people.
    There is no knowledge that is not power.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by CLOUD 500 View Post
    Really and how did you come to that conclusion? Huge corporations that run everything using their powers to exploit their employees and rob their customers? I mean prices keep on going up and up and salaries are essentially stagnant. The economy has been on a steady recession since the early 80's. Corporations using unethical practices to make profits. Capitalism is bullshit and governments serve the interests of corporations not the people.
    I think an argument that has some validity is that the technology a person can purchase today has resulted in such deflation that his income did not need to go up. My iPhone and iPad monthly plan not only replaces my landline, but allows me computing power that replaces an expensive personal computer and even reduces the entertainment expenses I would otherwise incur for television, cable TV, movies and radio. All because a now very wealthy group of people invented them, and hard working Chinese workers make them.

    Strangely enough both sides use this in their arguments. The pure capitalists tell the North American median wage earner to shut the fuck up, his standard of living has increased even if his wages did not go up.

    The basic income crowd says you can't eat your iPhone and the wealthy have accumulated so much in our winner take all system that they should pay something out to everyone on a monthly basis.

    I am a little skeptical of the basic income argument, but I am somewhat intrigued, nonetheless, particularly if it reduces the bureaucracy.

  8. #8
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    Soylent Green?

    For some reason this all reminds me of the 1973 science fiction film "Soylent Green", a look at a dystopian future world in which overpopulation, soaring temperatures and depletion of natural resources has caused a starvation issue. The government solves this problem by creating "Soylent Green", a mysterious manufactured protein food source reportedly made out of plankton, although this explanation becomes suspicious as the movie wears on. At the end, main character, played by Charlton Heston, shockingly discovers the truth in this horrifying scene:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6zAFA-hamZ0

    I have the same basic question on basic income- if nobody has to work, where is the money going to come from?

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by CLOUD 500 View Post
    Really and how did you come to that conclusion? Huge corporations that run everything using their powers to exploit their employees and rob their customers? I mean prices keep on going up and up and salaries are essentially stagnant. The economy has been on a steady recession since the early 80's. Corporations using unethical practices to make profits. Capitalism is bullshit and governments serve the interests of corporations not the people.
    That is why I wrote "as bad as it is"... Churchill once said a famous quote: "Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others.". I would transform it to: "Capitalism is the worst form of system, except for all the others."

    Cheers,

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by jalimon View Post
    The worst is most american (I include canadians here) still deny that we are truly killing our planet. They only think of themselve. Not about their kids, or perhaps the kids of their kids. With everything automized and the impossibility to further exploit our natural resource, we will reach a point where there is just not enough jobs for everyone!
    Cheers,
    I think that most of us know we are causing harm to our planet but unless we shutdown progress that can not be changed. What the majority should realize is that climate change is just that and no form of taxation or shutting down our resources will fix that, we need the income that is produced by our resources.
    Back to the basic income. There are a lot of people who will make due with the basic income and not look for the 40 hr a week job which will bump their income up 10 or 20%. Why work when you can do nothing and make a basic income. With the new child tax credit system you will see many low income earners poping out kids left and right, future welfare cases, add the basic income and there you have it, a society that lounges around collecting money and poping out babies.
    I have a strong work ethic and believe if you do not earn it you do not get it. Excluded in my thought are the handicapped.
    I do not think outside the box, I do not think inside the box, I do not even know where the box is.

  11. #11
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    In the spirit to stay related to the Sp's world, what came quickly in my mind is there will be a high probability that if there is a basic income in Canada, there will be very less sex workers then.

    Often at first, what brings a woman to sex work is when there is no other options left to be able to eat, having a roof or any kind of emergency in her life. That's mostly 100% the reason why girls/women are beginning in this field.

    After, to decide to stay and continue is totally another decision.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Maria Divina View Post
    In the spirit to stay related to the Sp's world, what came quickly in my mind is there will be a high probability that if there is a basic income in Canada, there will be very less sex workers then.

    Often at first, what brings a woman to sex work is when there is no other options left to be able to eat, having a roof or any kind of emergency in her life. That's mostly 100% the reason why girls/women are beginning in this field.

    After, to decide to stay and continue is totally another decision.
    That was my initial thought, but after considering it some more, I am not so sure.

    It is easier to find a high-quality escort in New York City, Chicago, San Francisco, Miami, Los Angeles, Las Vegas, Washington DC ,etc. than it is in Peoria, IL or Des Moines, Iowa or Cheyenne, Wyoming.

    My apologies for not knowing my Canadian geography better, but I certainly love the Montreal escorts I have seen and I suspect that it is easier to find a high quality escort in Montreal than in Waskaganish or Tadoussac Quebec.

    When I see a big city US escort, they are rarely from that big city, but most often from a smaller city that has a lower cost of living. They travelled to the big city to attend school and/or have a more interesting life. Many of the Montreal escorts I have taken with said they were from a small village that I could not begin to pronounce.

    So if a very basic standard of living is all that is desired, it seems that they would move to a very small city and live off of the land, or more specifically their parent's vegetable garden. But they choose to migrate to places with a higher standard of living, better schooling, and/or more opportunities for fun and adventure. So I think the desire to have more than a basic income would still lead body entrepreneurs to sex work.

    I guess my biggest concern with the basic income movement is that it would start small, like $8,000 U.S., but the inclination would be for everyone to vote to increase it. Just like what has happened with the U.S. social security system.

    There is always a balance required, and I fear the result of the basic income approach would be like the end of the famous story Animal Farm. But many who enjoy the story Animal Farm forget that it was evil Farmer Jones that caused the original rebellion that ultimately benefited the Pigs and caused the Horses to ultimately do all of the work with no corresponding reward. The key is to not let the system get too out of balance to start with.

  13. #13
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    Often, at first, when she doesn't know at all the environement and that she is all very afraid to have to eventually to deal with mean "pimps" and a bunch of big perverted abusives clients, the girl/woman is taking the decision to do a sex work just for a few times, just to make the proper amount of money she is in urge need to have.

    Everybody here before ever having his (as a client) or her (as a provider) first experiments of escorting, is having these very bad preconceptions in their minds, and with some reasons. We know that exist bad things happening for real. And at the minute you are realizing that your personal experience is not what the press or what it is commonly reported and known to be, then, you can make a real enlighten choice. For real, we are a lots to be very far from the kind of people we are reported to be, clients & escorts. Majority are just plain normal people, that is what the truth is.

    Of course here, I am talking about people who have nobody in their friends and family who could have talked to them about what it is for real. And I am supposing that's have been the majority of people who did not have this kind of "education". For the few who had the opportunity to have a friend who tell beforehand, that's probably another story, I imagine.

    A high-quality escort, as you mentioned, is someone educated and who knows how it works (so it needs experience here) I have the feeling that's rare that someone is beginning, having her first experience as an established high-quality professional sex worker. But in our days, that's kind of easy to find all informations needed in the net, so maybe in our days it is more common then.

    I am curious to know how many girls/women were rich or at least, at ease before becoming a sex worker? I always heard, in all the years that I am around, exception of 1 or 2, that the reason to begin is a huge important need of money (paying groceries, rent, some urgent debts and be able just after to be able to have a decent life without pression) and the girls began because that was no other choice left to be out of that sudden urgent need. Generally, you become a sex worker when there is no one that can help you $ . Don't get me wrong, I am talking here about the very first step, where you have to go thru your afraying misconceptions. After, that's another story. And yes, that's at that moment that girls are choosing to invest in that field because they see the real potential and their capacities to make it for longer than they expected at first, and all this depends on their own experiences they had the chance to live, and if they don't have already a work they like also. Or maybe, some regular money who will pay the basic needs like a basic income. Don't get me wrong, there will be always urgent need of money, by some bad lucks happening in life, or also, some who will have the guts to have a dream to build and the energy and "skills" to be a sex worker to cash flow and make it true.

    Anyway, you don't have to believe what I am saying, I'm probably don't know what I am talking about at all, hey?

    I am just saying that probably with a basic income, the urge to become a sex worker will be less common then.

  14. #14
    You may be correct.

    The chick living at home and going to Des Moines Iowa College (I presume there is such a college) and getting three meals a day cooked by mom is much less inclined, in my observation, to enter sex work than the Midwestern girl who moves to Chicago and goes to an expensive school like DePaul and realizes that there is insufficient cash to pay her $1,000 a month rent, pay her tuition, and enjoy the restaurants and nightlife of Chicago with her new friends.

    So Chicago will always have a larger sex work market than Des Moines, Iowa will.

    If everyone developed a point of view that life should be lived in a minimalist fashion and the monthly check from the government covers most necessities, fewer women would likely enter sex work.

    I am not sure people would be happier in the long run, though. The hypothetical chick who goes off to college in the big city and sells some tail along the way likely gets a lot more life experiences, both good and bad, than the chick who stays in Des Moines, Iowa.

    I imagine the same is true of Montreal and Quebec's long-named villages.

  15. #15
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    We have already had something similar "Soviet Communism" and it failed miserably.
    The intent may have been good but equal pay for the majority will never work simply because people are not equal and they will always want more, and that is the way it should be, as long as they are willing to work for it.

    It started out with the state having to provide everybody employment.
    What happened was nobody worked at their "government job", they stole/carried off everything they could get their hands on at their work place and then used those items very creatively to rework, resell, or barter those items to create a second income.
    It did not take long for the second income to be more important than their so called government job.

    I personally would not want a basic income. I am quite willing to work for what I need or want, and would not want to be paying taxes to support the ones who are not.

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