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Thread: Honesty

  1. #1
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    Honesty

    This was posted on another internet group that I belong to.

    =====youandme999 wrote=====
    I'm a big fan of open relationships, but elas am not in one myself. I'm
    curious about your lifestyle and how you feel about engaging with
    someone who has discretionary requirements?
    ===== the persons reply:
    Interesting that you use the word discretionary, which means exercised
    at one's individual choice or judgment, when you really mean discreet
    which means having or showing good judgment as well as
    unobtrusive/unnoticeable. Because as far as I'm concerned cheating shows
    remarkable bad judgment and takes away the choices from one's partner.
    And getting involved with someone who's cheating also shows bad judgment
    whether you're monogamous or poly. If you are monogamous, supposedly you
    value sexual fidelity, but you are being cheated on every time that
    person is with his wife. Even if they leave their partner eventually,
    odds are they'll cheat on you too. If you are poly, then you are
    choosing to get involved with someone who has proven that they can't do
    honesty in a relationship and poly can't work without honesty. It's a
    losing proposition all around.


    This Is how I responded:

    Speaking as a sex worker, I speak with many men who cheat. I agree with
    you that cheating shows a lack of respect for the relationship, a lack
    of trust (in the sense that they assume that she will not understand)
    selfishness, a lack of self control, and sometimes arrogance and
    manipulation.

    I do not agree that it automatically signals a lack of love and respect
    for the partner. I have met men who love a partner who only understands
    monogamy and does not fill their needs. For example: A couple who
    married young, both virgins; she kept her strict Roman Catholic values
    and he needs more sex than only for procreation. Generally in a case
    like the example I just gave, he feels guilty for having sexual needs
    and for cheating but he does love her and all other parts of the
    relationship are good. (As we all know a relationship is so much more
    than sex.)

    While most of my clients are single (surprise!) those who are attached
    generally are afraid of talking about their sexual needs with their
    partner. They are afraid of rejection and ridicule if they tell their
    partner their fantasies. They are afraid of being labelled kinky or
    perverted. Those needs and fantasies may be quite tame by our standards
    (oral sex or doggy-style) but if it never happened in the relationship,
    expressing that desire can be scary. Many people are simply not brave
    enough to express their needs, desires, and fantasies to their partner.
    Others think that what they want is too kinky or perverted to suggest to
    someone they love and respect. Sort of an "I am a pervert married to
    this wonderful woman and if she finds out she will leave me," type of
    thinking.

    Personally honesty in my relationships is of the utmost importance. I
    give and expect honesty in all my relationships. I have been betrayed,
    some of you here were there for me for that. And I know the pain that
    comes with it...

    Ronnie,
    Naughtylady
    They will forget what you said,
    they will forget what you did,
    but they will never forget the way you made them feel.

  2. #2
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    Hmmm, I am surprised that nobody has anything to add...

    Ronnie,
    Naughtylady
    They will forget what you said,
    they will forget what you did,
    but they will never forget the way you made them feel.

  3. #3
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    You're making me feel bad

    I married too young. Tuesday a friend asked me why I ever married my wife...I was chasing after my son, who's just started walking, at the time, so I didn't really give a solid answer. In fact, I've been trying to come up with a decent answer ever since. I didn't enter into matrimony a virgin, and neither did she, but we were both fairly inexperienced.
    At some point, I realized she could never satisfy me sexually. I tried to broaden her horizons, even buying her a vibrator. And I was not selfish in bed, either. It didn't seem to be enough, and we didn't seem to have many of the same interests...and I'm not just referring to sex. Reading this, I realize that I am a shit with no self control.

    Now I'd say I'm all in favor of open relationships, but...I'm very skeptical that they can actually work. I only know of one such couple, and they do not have a happy marriage.
    Why are homely people discriminated against...we're the majority

  4. #4
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    Reg, I've done the same things you have, so I'm not trying to criticize you, but you're not being honest. In fact, you're not even being honest with yourself. By saying I'd never have an affair, but I'd "purchase" sex, I think you're fooling yourself.

    I'm sure you're wise enough not to take my advice, but if I were in your shoes, and (I'm guessing here) my kids were grown, I'd end it. In my case, with a one year old, it's much harder.
    Why are homely people discriminated against...we're the majority

  5. #5

    Arrow Be honest with yourself first

    Quote Originally Posted by regnad
    My own feeling is that the ready availability of recreational sex has helped me let off steam and and, to date, helped preserve the marriage. I've never had an "affair" and never would take on the kind of emotional risk that an affair carries with it.

    I'll also add that, unlike my friend General Gonad, I engage in recreational sex utterly without guilt or self recrimination. As far as I'm concerned, it's simply good clean fun. It's not my problem that we live in a society with sexual mores set by religious organizations for which I bear nothing but contempt.
    I will start where Regnad left off. I too agree with btyger that even though seeing an SP is nowhere near as bad as having an affair, it is cheating and dishonest. Murder is murder, theft is theft, cheating is cheating. Let's call a spade a spade and dispense with our natural tendency to try and rationalize our actions.

    Now in calling a spade a spade, I believe that open relationships full of honesty are also extremeley rare and very unsolid. How can a guy honestly say I am fine dating an SP who sleeps with several men a day or in a week? This is pure horseshit and I question the strength of any relationship - even more than mine - that involves this type of arrangement. The truth is that these people are afraid of being alone so they concoct the ludicrous concept of an "open" relationship which is doomed to fail.

    I agree with Regnad that the availability of "recreational" sex is a factor but why am I not a drug addict or alcoholic? To say something is readily available doesn't excuse your actions. I do not like the word "recreational" since it trivializes what you're doing, making you believe it's benign. I know I am cheating. Yes, I have guilt but I will not lie - seeing some SPs has helped me in many ways that I couldn't imagine - and it wasn't about the sex. In my opinion, the minute you stop feeling guilty is the minute you should end your primary relationship.

    I love my wife and I am fully aware that my actions are not helping my relationship. We may not be right for each other but I cannot honestly tell anyone on this board that cheating, even if it's with an SP, will not be detrimental to your relationship. When you love someone, you need to be devoted to that person. You cannot spend hours on Merb writing posts about "amazing ladies." You cannot be emailing SPs to arrange secret rendez-vous knowing full well that if your wife found out, she would be devastated. I cannot think of anything that would hurt me more than hurting her - the woman who has stood by my side through some of my most challenging moments. Actions ALWAYS speak louder than words.

    Ronnie, being honest for me begins with being honest with myself first. I do not think it has to do with asking my wife for "kinky sex." I couldn't give a damn for sex since I make love to my wife. Most of the SPs I have been with understand why married men cheat but some of them have told me that they hope their husbands never cheat on them. They are right and I am wrong. But in life sometimes you need to journey into unkown territory and live with the consequences of your action. If you know that this "hobby" has the potential to destroy your primary relationship - and it does - then you need to step back and reevaluate what you value in life.

    Again, you need to be honest with yourself first. If you stop feeling guilty, you have to question yourself as to why you are bothering with your primary relationship. If you're miserable in your primary relationship, then have the courage to move on because at the end of the day, we will all die - none of us will cheat death. What good are you to your kids, to your wife or to yourself if you're miserable?

    Finally, do you want me to honestly tell you what I am thinking when I am with a special young lady? I am thinking to myself, I hope you never marry a guy like me - you deserve so much better.

    GG
    Last edited by General Gonad; 05-12-2006 at 09:37 AM.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by regnad
    General,

    If I shared, even to the slightest degree, your guilt about what I'm doing, I certainly would have stopped long before I started.
    Regnad,

    I know I will eventually stop - I have no doubts about that. Why did I start? Probably because I was stupid and selfish. But there is something that troubles me in your reasoning when you state "...I engage in recreational sex utterly without guilt or self recrimination." If, as you believe that SPs are humans with emotions, then how can you be so robotic in your attitude towards this activity? Somewhere deep inside, I believe you do feel guilt but are unable to admit it to yourself. You may be miserable in your primary relationship but then you have only yourself to blame for that just like I have only myself to blame for the way I feel.

    GG

  7. #7
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    As for your statement that divorce still shakes the emotional foundation of grown kids, I have to use your own words: there is a huge difference between the effect of divorce on a one year old and a twenty year old. Huge, huge difference.
    There is a significant amount of data to back this up. My son is at the most vulnerable and helpless point in his life. Would I consider a reconciliation with a woman I don't love for his sake? Yes. But, if he were twenty and I felt this way, I would certainly not sacrifice my happiness. As for being dishonest, nevermind the difference between an affair and seeing escorts. We should agree to disagree there. My point is that your needs are not being met in your marriage, and that is where I think you're cheating yourself.
    Why are homely people discriminated against...we're the majority

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by regnad
    Why don't you stop now?
    I can ask you, why don't you divorce now? You've got your reasons, I've got mine but trust me, I know I can leave and will when I am ready to do so.

    Quote Originally Posted by regnad
    And just how am I robotic in my attitude? I believe that sex is not only for procreation but is good clean fun. When I'm with a working girl, I do my very, very best to try to make sure that the experience is as much fun for her as it can be. And I think I'm successful far more often than not.
    You're lying to yourself pretending it's all "good, clean fun". This is a fairytale and you know it. There is nothing benign about "hobbying," regardless of whether or not you're married. To believe so is to lie to yourself.

    GG

  9. #9

    Whats worse?

    For those of you with a "dillema" over cheating, suffering through guilt about "lying" or "dishonesty", I ask you whats worse, your cheating, or your wife deceiving you when you first met about her sexual nature? I'm not making a generalization about all women, just wondering why a man would bother feeling bad about "cheating" on a woman who lured him into a marriage by pretending to be an openminded sex kitten with a naughty streak in her only to turn icy cold once she had kids and no longer had a need for sex. This is a common scenario and men should not be made to feel guilty for having a penis that works and wanting to use it.

    Since the focus is on honesty, isn't the woman in this scenario responsible for the relationship being somewhat based on a lie to begin with? Isn't she the one who is "cheating" the man out of what he needs to be happy sexually? Two wrongs certainly don't make a right but what is the remedy here? Regs' approach is sane and protects what is really important, the kids, while keeping himself from being miserable sexually, which is important for men since being in a miserable sexual state can affect our demeanor in general therefore making you less pleasant to be around. Ever see a man walking with his wife and kids with a miserable drawn out expression on his face? I bet you more often than not, he's not getting any. Life presents us with a big shit sandwich from time to time, unfortunately we sometimes have to take a bite. Guilt? Get over it.
    "I can picture every move that a man could make
    getting lost in her loving is your first mistake

    Sometimes I think its a sin
    When I feel like I'm winning when I'm losing again"

  10. #10
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    I believe that open relationships full of honesty are also extremeley rare and very unsolid. How can a guy honestly say I am fine dating an SP who sleeps with several men a day or in a week? This is pure horseshit and I question the strength of any relationship - even more than mine - that involves this type of arrangement. The truth is that these people are afraid of being alone so they concoct the ludicrous concept of an "open" relationship which is doomed to fail.
    Unless you have ever had an open relationship of some sort, I do not see how you can make these comments. Open relationships are not for everyone, and yes it is possible to "cheat" even if you are in one.

    I have been in one for 4 years (notice I have only been escorting for less than 3 years). Obviously I have sex with other men (more often than he has sex with other women). Do I love him? Yes. Does he love me? I have absolutely no doubt.

    When I go to work, do I have deep loving feelings for my clients? No, though I do like and care about some of my regulars. Some I would even call my friend (As in someone who I like to hang out with and chill with and talk to on the phone).

    He has had some one night stands, a couple of regular flings, and has seen a couple of escorts (nothing wrong with a desire for some variety). Somehow ever time this happens we get closer. It is as if my understanding that he occaisionally wants variety makes him love and desire me more.

    If, as you believe that SPs are humans with emotions, then how can you be so robotic in your attitude towards this activity?
    Why do you think his attitude is robotic? Because he does not invest emotionally? I don't invest emotionally with my clients (usually, but it has happened), but that doesn't meat I am being robotic. I am out to give and have a good time when I go on a date, wether it is for an hour or a weekend.

    There is nothing benign about "hobbying," regardless of whether or not you're married.
    Please elaborate, I have some comments but I want to understand exactly what you meant first.

    Ronnie,
    Naughtylady
    They will forget what you said,
    they will forget what you did,
    but they will never forget the way you made them feel.

  11. #11
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    That question was directed at GG who made that quote.

    So it seems that we both don't know how to fully turn off our emotions

    Ronnie,
    Naughtylady
    They will forget what you said,
    they will forget what you did,
    but they will never forget the way you made them feel.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by naughtylady
    Unless you have ever had an open relationship of some sort, I do not see how you can make these comments. Open relationships are not for everyone, and yes it is possible to "cheat" even if you are in one.
    Ronnie,

    I do not believe in "open" relationships - either you're committed or you're not. It's very simple to understand and this is why the great majority of people are not engaging in "open" relationships. This does not mean it cannot work but I have serious doubts.

    Quote Originally Posted by naughtylady
    He has had some one night stands, a couple of regular flings, and has seen a couple of escorts (nothing wrong with a desire for some variety). Somehow ever time this happens we get closer. It is as if my understanding that he occaisionally wants variety makes him love and desire me more.
    Forgive me if I scoff at the idea that two people who purportedly love each other so much are getting closer because they allow each other to sleep with others. Again, could it be that you fear losing him because he's way younger than you? Maybe you're lying to yourself, trying to rationalize this "open" relationship.

    Quote Originally Posted by naughtylady
    Why do you think his attitude is robotic? Because he does not invest emotionally? I don't invest emotionally with my clients (usually, but it has happened), but that doesn't meat I am being robotic. I am out to give and have a good time when I go on a date, wether it is for an hour or a weekend.
    "Robotic" is a man without a conscience, a man who feels no guilt whatsoever. I find it curious that Regnad can get emotional with ladies he's paying to be with but he doesn't feel a shred of guilt for cheating on his wife. I know he's a nice guy so I can only speculate that he has no guilt because he wishes his marriage was over.

    Finally, regardless of whether you're single or married, "hobbying" may not be as benign as we all like to think. Not for the clients and not for the SPs. Check out my thread on how hobbying warps your views.

    GG
    Last edited by General Gonad; 05-13-2006 at 12:28 PM.

  13. #13
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    Am I missing something here? Aren't both of you guys cheating on your wives? So what gives? I don't see that one pot can call the kettle black, but the other can't. Infidelity is a 2 lane highway.

  14. #14

    Frames of Reference

    I like to think in terms of frames of reference: if you change your frame of reference so that sleeping with other women is permitted, there is nothing to feel guilty about. While most of us cannot do it (including me), some can.

    The bottom line is that it is a question of personal morals. As much as I'd like to say Regnad is deluding himself, I cannot as that would be judging him based upon my own personal morals. The key question is how his wife would view this. If she has no problem with it we should all bugger off and mind our own damn businesses; however if she does have a problem with it that raises the interesting question of whether two different frames of reference can co-exist within the same marriage.

  15. #15
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    If the marriage has deteriorated to the point of irreconciliability, then it may be hard to feel guilty under those circumstances.

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