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Thread: Iranian (In)Justice...Is Misogyny so ingrained in Islam and elsewhere in Asia?

  1. #1
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    Iranian (In)Justice...Is Misogyny so ingrained in Islam and elsewhere in Asia?

    I'll preface this thread by saying that it may offend some, especially Muslims. Mods, if you want to remove it, fine. That said, many of us in the west seem apologetic for every wrong committed by our government, while ignoring the ingrained and tolerated evils found elsewhere in the world.

    As out of kilter as our justice system here in America seems to me-and Canada is no better, just different-I see we're still far better than some.

    How f#$%ed up is Iran? This stoy is from January of this year. A teenage girl has been sentenced to death by hanging. Her cime? She stabbed and accidentally killed one of 3 men who tried to rape her and her 16 year old niece. I see no mention of punishment for the surviving would be rapists.
    The most telling thing is the fact the two girls were with their boyfriends at the time. The cowardly boyfriends fled on motorcycles, leaving the girls to fend for themselves. Now this girl, who should be a hero, is going to die.
    Here's the story, read it if you don't mind your blood pressure going through the roof:
    http://www.iranfocus.com/modules/new...p?storyid=5183

    At the end of the article, Atefeh Rajabi is mentioned. She is, or was, a 16 year old girl sentened to death in '04 for 'acts incompatible with chastity.' At 16, I didn't know many girls my age who wouldn't have been put to death by this standard.

    Iran has an Islamic penal system. I'm not Muslim, and I'm sure I'll be reviled as a bigot for asking this most obvious of questions, but, does Islam seriously teach that the lives of women are so worthless? I opposed the Iraq war heading in, on moral grounds. I don't support elective wars. The more I see of Islamic justice, the more I ask myself if Bush is right.

    Nor does Islam have a monopoly on misogyny. In India, China and other nations, the current trend is to use ultrasound for elective abortion. Is your wife pregnant with a girl? Better have an abortion, because women are worthless. What kind of world are these people creating? How hate filled are the men in these places? How hate filled will they be when they can't get laid in a generation because the men outnumber the women 3:2?
    Why are homely people discriminated against...we're the majority

  2. #2
    It's not just Iran. Have you checked out Dubai's record? It's not much better.
    But these are Muslim countries and we have no business in how they enforce their laws whether we agree with them or not. Trying to get them to live the way we do can't be done by force but it seems that there is hope. Here's a few examples:

    http://la.indymedia.org/news/2003/01/25231.php
    http://www.statesman.com/news/conten...7emirates.html


    And here is an example of how things are changing.

    No death-by stoning in our country
    Special report

    20 June 2006



    DUBAI — UAE has never carried out any death-by-stoning sentence, officials at the Ministry of Justice told Khaleej Times in the context of an order passed by an emirati court recently.


    Even as the appeals court has amended the Fujairah Shariah Court’s verdict, in an adultery case yesterday, and reduced the sentence to one-year jail for the accused man, Amnesty International has launched a global initiative against such practices.

    The man, Shahin Abdull Rahman, had been convicted last month of committing adultery with housemaid Asmaa Bikham Bijam, who was also sentenced to 100 lashes and a year in jail.

    The Fujairah court had been told that the couple began an affair after meeting by chance in a local market. Rahman admitted he was married, but started the affair because he was lonely after being unable to arrange for his wife to move with him to the Emirates from Bangladesh.

    Rahman and Bijam were reported to police last year by the maid's employer, who suspected the domestic servant was bringing a man to her room once the rest of the household was asleep.

    The maid's employer kept the girl under surveillance and after seeing her let a man in through a back door called the police.

    Witnesses told the Fujairah court the couple were naked in bed when the police burst in through the maid's bedroom door.

    After a trial in April 2005, the court eventually handed down the stoning and flogging sentence on June 10.

    Human Rights Watch (HRW) has also toed the Amnesty line on the issue. HRW opposes 'capital punishment in all circumstances".

    A legal expert with the Ministry of Justice, who said such sentences were never carried out in the UAE, said a confession and four witnesses to an actual sex act were needed for a stoning sentence to be carried out.

    Inferring the sentence was more symbolic than literal, the Ministry expert said the convicted man would have the sentence commuted to a lesser punishment, or even be acquitted, if he appealed his sentence and withdrew his confession.

    Last week, the Ministerial Committee for Legislation quashed a flogging sentence issued for a misdemeanor offence and advised judges to restrict the future issuing of such sentences for minor offences.

    The committee, presided over by Justice Minister Mohammed bin Nakhira Al Dhahiri, took the decision after reviewing evidence that showed many judges were imposing flogging sentences where fines or minor prison sentences were actually warranted.

    Dr Mohammed Mahmoud Al Kamali, Director General of the Judicial Institute, said the enforcement of flogging had become a popular sentence with judges, who were applying it even on traffic and juvenile cases. "This has raised a lot of problems which spurred the committee to quash the sentence," he said.

    Dr Al Kamali said misdemeanor crimes demanded a sentence of jail term for one month to three years and a fine between Dh100 to Dh30,000 as per the penal code.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Original link: http://www.khaleejtimes.com/DisplayA...section=theuae

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    Talking about those women,I never understand why some women from those countries who live here still wear these huge robes that covers their bodies from head to toe.
    I live in a multi-ethnic neighborhood where I get to see a lot of those.
    As a matter of fact I just saw a couple of them Thursday afternoon.At plus 30 degrees temperatures with all this black material on them,I feel I 'm in 3rd world country.
    This is suppose to be freedom of choice?
    To live like a slave or some prisonner?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Daringly
    bytger
    The countries that you mentioned violate the rights of women all the time. Not all males in these countries do it but there are far to many that do. They treat the woman like dirt and this stuff needs to be pointed out. The ones that treat the woman this way are disgusting pigs, and i am probably being kind in my assessment of them.
    Not only does this happen over there, but some men of middle eastern descent living in North America have the same ideas about women. It's all upbringing, and it's disgusting.

    Joet, I've missed your uh, interesting statements in the 'Yankees' thread, but your post here is nuts. I opposed the invasion of Iraq heading in, but BDC has a right to his opinion. To say that there's no argument for it is wrong. As for Ballz, I don't know him well, but I've seen the conspiracy theories he's posted, and they're simply unbelievable and not based in fact.

    Here, instead of talking about an obvious culture of misogyny, you've changed the subject.
    Why are homely people discriminated against...we're the majority

  5. #5

    Change...

    Quote Originally Posted by Daringly
    Techman
    I agree with you that there is not a lot we can do about it
    but to just say that is the way it is in these countries is taking the easy way out. What choice do these woman have. They are born into societies where there rights are taking away from the time they are born. They don't dare speak out about it because they would be putting their lives at risk. In these areas i will offer these countries no support nor will show them any respect.
    At the very least as decent, caring human beings we owe it to them to speak out against this bullshit.
    As much as those of us that are fortunate to be able to say what we want, dress the way we want and not have the law treat us differentl based on our sex, may want these same 'gifts' for those who do not enjoy them, ultimately for real change to occur in these countries or any country for that matter the desire for change has to come from within. It cannot be forced upon them. I do agree that until they are able to do so freely, we have a moral obligation to speak for those who have no voice; seek justice for those who are downtrodden and act as agents of change where we can. It is unfortunate that even men who are born of mothers and born with sisters do not see fit to do away with outdated laws. I am often perplexed by this phenomenon.

    Money talks like nothing else in this world - it is unfortunate but true. One way of effecting change is to strike where it hurts the most. Economically. Refuse to buy good from countries with poor human right records. Talk to your MP, force them to insist that any aid provided by the government is tied to demonstrated human rights reform.

    D

    P.S. I use the term gift because, those of us who enjoy it tend to take it for granted.

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    Exclamation

    BDC,

    That would be a good idea.But unfortunately we have the charter of right and freedom.And belive me they know how to use it.
    There should be a charter of duty and responsabilities,that would include most of your statement and then some(no praying locals in schools)ect..,

  7. #7
    All the good intentions and ideas are wonderful but do you actually think we would be able to enforce them? We can't even keep track of illegal immigrants who just disappear into various communities. How do you propose these regulations be enforced? Deportation? Hell, we have trouble getting the justice system to deport violent criminals. The eventual cost to the justice system will be extreme with only the lawyers profitting as usual.

    Should we oppose this kind of treatment? Of course we should. We should use whatever peaceful means we have to do so. But we all know it won't make much difference. We will still buy the only product that most of these countries have to sell. and that is oil. Then we'll sent humanitarian aid over and it will be taken by the leaders of the countries and never get to where it's supposed to go. Change must come from within but as long as these countries are controlled by religious leaders that change will be slow in coming. No matter what laws you pass, an individual's religious beliefs will almost always take precedence. Especially when that belief borders on the fanatic.
    Yes their treatment of women's rights and human rights in general is abhorent but there is very little we can do. It's not like a computer where we can just format and start over with a clean slate.

    ...and a loyalty outh to our nation. They must also past a history, language and culture test to get in.
    BDC, you can't ask immigrants to do what many Canadian born citizens would not themselves be able to do. And how many Quebecois would be willing to take a loyalty oath to Canada? Unless they are elected to the federal gov't.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cosmo
    BDC,

    That would be a good idea.But unfortunately we have the charter of right and freedom.And belive me they know how to use it.
    The same anti-westerners who hate our freedoms and want to destroy them are remarkably good at using them when it's to their advantage.
    Why are homely people discriminated against...we're the majority

  9. #9
    Is it me or does the Muslims communities are full of hypocracy? They preach peace while torturing people and kill them in the most barbaric ways. They claimed to be peaceful and yet have no quam about beating or torture their women for no reason what so ever. I know I'm being general here but when you have a few people who do these evil crimes and the whole community shut their mouths what are us westerners to think? The only different between the muslim extremist and the "christian" extremist is that the Christian extremist do not act out on their hatred. ( Not on a wide scale base). The thing that bothers me is that the same people who bitch and screams about women's rights and justice for all. i.e NOW national organization for Women . ACLU are no where to be heard of nor do they even offer any comments on such issues or stage protest on such outrage. I guess in the end we are the same hyprocrates as the Muslim.

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    Unhappy

    Former PQ minister feminist Lise Payette who now has an editorialist column in le JDM has done extensive reports and denounce those practise.
    She went to meet some of these women wearing thcador(or wathever it's called) and was politely told to mind her own business by those same women.
    I agree with you,most of our leftists elites are very hypocrites when comes time to denounce non-christians white groups.
    Call it politically correctness.
    Example:Gay pride parade,lots of anti-christian signs.No anti-muslims signs.
    Why?muslims are a lot less tolerant then catholics towards gays.
    They don,t wan to be called racist,so they choose the easy target;catholics.
    Call it politically corretness(hypocrisy).

  11. #11
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    The far left in the US is an almagm of disparate special interest groups...I suspect it's no better in Canada. The result is they preach tolerance, but won't speak up against heinous injustices committed by anyone who isn't a member of white middle America.
    It's PC to pick on white Americans, especially white males. It's even considered the height of comedy. Fine. I can take a joke. My father routinely calls himself a "Polack" (Actually, he's half Polack-American, half Italian-American). That makes me a quarter polack. I don't care.

    But when the PC police not only say that you can insult one group, but that you have to ignore real and violent actions by others, that's dangerous. This isn't a joke, people are dying. Shows that what George Carlin says is true...we aren't so civilized after all. We're not very evolved, either.

    I know nobody here is going to save this girl's-and that's what she is at 18, a girl-life, but there will be others. The first step to action is outrage.

    Unfortunately, the outrage and the change is going to have to come from within. All the west can do is pressure these people. Force and violence won't change them, only eliminate them. We invaded Iraq and today they're passing a constitution that grants amnesty to insurgents who've killed US soldiers. We invaded Afghanistan and they nearly killed a man for converting to Christianity.
    In the end, Muslim extremists are no different than Christians, who've done the same things. Islam started what, 600 years after Christianity. They may be around 600 years behind in terms of tolerance.

    If there are Muslims reading this who are offended, I'll offer this: If you really are serious about tolerance and equality, prove it. Show your outrage. Write about it, write to congress, write to the Iranian govrnment. I know they won't listen, but it's a start. As I said, there will be other women put to death in Iran and other Muslim nations for bogus reasons. If you do that, I will offer you my sincere apology.
    If you remain silent, or attack me as a bigot, then I guess that life and justice don't count for much in your eyes, as they so often don't in religion.
    Violence and religion have historically gone hand in hand. Just read the bible. Incredibly violent, and not just the book of revelations. Hell, Moses wasn't a prophet. He was a military man.
    Why are homely people discriminated against...we're the majority

  12. #12
    Whenever a member of the muslim community commits or attempts to commit a terrorist act all we hear from Muslim leaders is the same old thing we hear from the black community when blacks are arrested or being sought for various criminal offenses. "Please don't judge the entire_____community by the actions of a few." Well 17 people were arrested in Toronto. No one in the Muslim community had any idea of what was going on? They didn't try to recruit anyone else to their cause? If they did, why didn't someone do something about it and call the authorities? If the Muslim community wants me to give them my trust they damn well better start trying to earn it. I won't judge the community by the actions of a few but I will judge it by the inaction of the rest of the community to help clean up the problem that is caused by the few.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Techman
    ...If they did, why didn't someone do something about it and call the authorities?...
    This group had been infiltrated by informants for a long time.

  14. #14
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    Thumbs up

    I'm no gay at all,nothing against them though.
    Every year at the end of July there is a gay parade in Montréal.
    Lots of sings denouncing catholic church.None denouncing islam,sikhism ect...
    I call it pc hypocrisy.
    bye.

  15. #15
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    The Muslim community here in Toronto is similar to many around the world: They won't say it outright, but they understand that thier religeon has no tolerance for any other faiths or people of no faith. Militants, activists, and insigators are only doing allah's work.

    They will not say that they approve of the actions or ideas of those 17, but they will also rarely condemn them either.

    That lack of condemnation from the highest ranks of the Muslim people is a tacit approval of their actions, and the reason why so many of them turn a blind eye and say "I never saw a thing" because they keep turning away to avoid having to deal with it.

    It is a very complicated situation that muslims need to resolve, but seem loath to get started on.

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