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Thread: The plight of the North American man

  1. #1
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    The plight of the North American man

    Yesterday Juliana asked rheotorically if the male population of Quebec was suffering so greatly they were contemplating suicide

    It's not just Quebec, and it's a problem that's being ignored by the public. Society, women, succesful men, marketing, media, etc have all decided that as a man, you're either an "alpha male", or you're worthless. To even point this out opens me up to ridicule and accusations of whining or bitterness.

    Men are more likely to commit suicide. Boys are more likely to have emotional and developmental problems. Among those under 40 in the US, women are actually 15 times more likely to become a top executive.
    These are just numbers. If you want to personalize it, I invite any of you to follow me around for a day as a single father. I have joint custody and spend as much time with our son as my ex-wife. Yesterday, her day to watch him, he was with me from 10am until bedtime. Despite our equal roles, I pay child support, though, up to a quarter of my income. If I fail to pay, I could theoretically be imprisoned as tens of thousands of men in America have been. I encourage those of you who think I exaggerate to read the links:

    http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig4/roberts-carey2.html

    http://www.angryharry.com/reNoNoteNeeded.htm

    http://www.ifeminists.net/introducti...2003/0923.html

    http://www.divorcenet.com/states/new..._child_support

    Frankly, I think my signature is solid advice for most men. If you're thinking about getting married or having kids (and mind you, I love my son more than life. At times when I contemplated suicide, I am sure he saved my life) be very wary.

    Nor is the so-called "Alpha Male" immune. We live in society that increasingly sends men and boys the message that they're not good. Listen to commercials, really listen and notice something: if there's a man and a woman in the commerical, the man is frequently portrayed as silly and foolish. Dumb. It's pc to insult men and portray them as dolts. Marketers (another group to be wary of) have no qualms about it. But try and find some that do the opposite. I'm not encouraging marketers to start up some mysoginistic commercials, but it's certainly alarming that it's become pc to be hateful and insulting to men.

    Meanwhile, men are expected to be pillars of strength, to never show weakness, or even emotion. There are men's support groups, but for every one their seems to be several women's support groups. A google query reveals too many grants and resources for single mothers going to college to mention. I couldn't find one for single fathers.

    Listening to the news yesterday, the shooter, who committed a horrible and unjustifiable act, hurting many more people than the twenty he shot, was described as a "lonely loser". This is a profile specific to young men, apparently. There is no talk of how to handle these people before they become dangerous, only what happens when they do...

    Given these things, I can't help but wonder, do many women find alot of men, particularly those they would not call "alpha males" to be expendable nuisances? Do many men feel the same way?

    I realize many will scoff at the question, but I truly believe the 'weaker,' or, 'loner,' male is to today's society what the unattractive female was a generation or two ago.
    Last edited by btyger; 09-15-2006 at 06:06 AM.
    Why are homely people discriminated against...we're the majority

  2. #2
    Great questions BT,

    I agree with much of what you are putting forth here, like you I have partial custody of my kids and I was just thinking the other day about how being a good Dad was supposed to be very "sexy" in womens eyes according to popular figures who supposedly speak for all women, like Oprah. Upon reflection I realized in dismay that other than comments on how cute my kids are I have never been the recipient of any special attention from any lady whatsoever because of my fatherhood. It made me mad to think what a myth this was. I believe I am viewed as "used merchandise" by most women who want nothing to do with the responsibilities of child rearing, let alone rearing someone elses kids.

    They place almost no value on anything "spiritually" meaningful like the joy of being part of a childs growing up, but when I tell them where I live or where I dock my boat they seem to perk up. Importance in strangers eyes rides so much on wealth and the perception of power/importance that it brings that for any man who has any kind of considerable assets it is a daunting task to find women who are really interested in YOU and not just putting on an act. My former mother in law told me once that she "trained" her daughter to marry a rich man! When thats the kind of mindset that mothers are putting in their little girls heads we are truly screwed as men unless we achieve the "Alpha" status you mention.

    What makes an "Alpha" male though and does it vary according to age as to how females see us? When they are young do they look for the most masculine guys only to change their focus towards money as they age? While it is natural to want to be taken care of and feel secure that your offspring will be provided for when choosing a mate at what point does focusing on any one thing, especially money, become unhealthy and start to become a precursor to divorce? I echo your warning to men to be wary, we must look for telling signs and more importantly be willing to see them for what they are.

    On the topic of suicide, I would openly speculate that the most important part of getting anyone to not do it is to give them a feeling of being needed and loved. In a different context this has been proven to be true. When long term studies were done on possible explanations for differences in life expectancy between men and women it was found that women live longer than most men by an average of 7 years for a number of reasons. One of the most telling in realtion to this post was that women, especially elder women in the studies all reported a strong sense of being loved and NEEDED by all those around them. The men on the other hand all had a sense of NOT being needed once they were retired! Imagine! After all the years our fathers slaved to support us they felt that they were only needed for that one singular "all important" purpose, MONEY! That ugly reality keeps hitting us smack in the face doesn't it?

    Its a real sign to me that the traditional role of women as being the primary providers of emotional support which helps us with our sense of well being has been beneficial to them in that it has given them that sense of being needed which in turn has kept them alive longer than the men whose traditional role of being the bread winner has left them out in the cold once their "earning years" are over and facilitated their passing on at earlier ages than their female counterparts. Granted their are other factors involved but isn't this sad?

    My suggestion, take a more active part in nurturing your kids and don't spend as much time at work, the extra money is not worth the loss of time with your kids. In short get out of the Rat race as much as possible. If you think you can't then you need to re-examine your priorities.
    Last edited by HonestAbe; 09-15-2006 at 07:17 AM.
    "I can picture every move that a man could make
    getting lost in her loving is your first mistake

    Sometimes I think its a sin
    When I feel like I'm winning when I'm losing again"

  3. #3
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    Can someone describe to me what an alpha male is?

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by femaleluver2
    Can someone describe to me what an alpha male is?
    Jason Giambi
    "I can picture every move that a man could make
    getting lost in her loving is your first mistake

    Sometimes I think its a sin
    When I feel like I'm winning when I'm losing again"

  5. #5
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    CNN's Nancy Grace might have contributed....

    to the recent suicide death of a young mother by being overly judgmental .

    http://www.local6.com/news/9818553/detail.html
    Last edited by femaleluver2; 09-15-2006 at 10:17 AM.

  6. #6
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    Nancy Grace was, IMHO, way out of line. She is not a prosecutor, she is the host of a cable news show. I think she's got some balls airing that two hours after the woman, who was obviously unwell, died.
    Maybe the mother was guilty, maybe not. That's up to the authorities and possibly a jury to decide. Not Nancy Grace, who WAS a prosecutor and apparently forgot that she no longer is.
    If she wasn't guilty, then Nancy Grace should be ashamed of the prosecutorial interview she conducted.

    The saddest part is that the boy is probably dead
    Why are homely people discriminated against...we're the majority

  7. #7

    Related 9/14 Mirror Article

    Desperate dad

    Fathers4Justice organizer wants to shake up the way custody is decided

    http://www.montrealmirror.com/2006/091406/people.html

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by femaleluver2
    Can someone describe to me what an alpha male is?
    The term "alpha" derives its significance from the fact that "alpha" is first letter of the Greek alphabet. Typically an "alpha" male is one who insists on leading, giving direction to others (typically, but not exclusively to women) and generally being dominant with respect to setting agendas, decision making etc.

  9. #9
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    Cool

    Quote Originally Posted by angeleyes
    The term "alpha" derives its significance from the fact that "alpha" is first letter of the Greek alphabet. Typically an "alpha" male is one who insists on leading, giving direction to others (typically, but not exclusively to women) and generally being dominant with respect to setting agendas, decision making etc.
    I guess many alpha men also have type A personalities...

    What about a guy like Microsoft founder Bill Gates? He's rich, but he's also kinda geeky. I wonder whether that makes him a non-alpha male?

  10. #10
    Bill Gates is the kind of guy that the typical 'Alpha male' pays to write his term papers for him.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by femaleluver2
    What about a guy like Microsoft founder Bill Gates? He's rich, but he's also kinda geeky.
    No, I don't think so. Gates got where he is in life by being creative, cunning, persistent and incredibly bright-- none of which are decidedly alpha male characteristics. Alpha males have an element of brutishness about them-- they leave you with the sense that they might have been apes in a past life or something. (Stereo)typically they are posessed of a false sense sense of superiority and tend to attain their positions via force and intimidation-- the law of the jungle, if you will. It's really just an extreme form of male chauvinism when you get right down to it.

  12. #12
    What I never understood is why women are attracted to the "alpha male," even though he may cheat on her, rob her, and beat the crap out of her.

    And they are never attracted to the "beta male," no matter how nice he is, how well he treats women, or how much money he makes, as in Bill Gates' case.

  13. #13
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    Ooooops

    Hello all,

    Now ladies, try not to hate me for this. It's a joke and a simple release of frustration. BUT, when it comes to figuring out women, lately I go back to the line in the Witches of Eastwick when the devil played by Jack Nicholson makes a reference to the Biblical creation story. "WOMEN...a mistake...or did He do it to us ooooonnnnnnn PURPOSE!!!" Well...the guys probably got a laugh out of it. Hey ladies...still love you all.

    Warm regards,

    Korbel
    Last edited by korbel; 09-16-2006 at 09:11 AM.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by btyger
    Yesterday Juliana asked rheotorically if the male population of Quebec was suffering so greatly they were contemplating suicide

    It's not just Quebec, and it's a problem that's being ignored by the public. Society, women, succesful men, marketing, media, etc have all decided that as a man, you're either an "alpha male", or you're worthless. To even point this out opens me up to ridicule and accusations of whining or bitterness.

    Men are more likely to commit suicide. Boys are more likely to have emotional and developmental problems. Among those under 40 in the US, women are actually 15 times more likely to become a top executive.
    These are just numbers. If you want to personalize it, I invite any of you to follow me around for a day as a single father. I have joint custody and spend as much time with our son as my ex-wife. Yesterday, her day to watch him, he was with me from 10am until bedtime. Despite our equal roles, I pay child support, though, up to a quarter of my income. If I fail to pay, I could theoretically be imprisoned as tens of thousands of men in America have been. I encourage those of you who think I exaggerate to read the links:

    http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig4/roberts-carey2.html

    http://www.angryharry.com/reNoNoteNeeded.htm

    http://www.ifeminists.net/introducti...2003/0923.html

    http://www.divorcenet.com/states/new..._child_support

    Frankly, I think my signature is solid advice for most men. If you're thinking about getting married or having kids (and mind you, I love my son more than life. At times when I contemplated suicide, I am sure he saved my life) be very wary.

    Nor is the so-called "Alpha Male" immune. We live in society that increasingly sends men and boys the message that they're not good. Listen to commercials, really listen and notice something: if there's a man and a woman in the commerical, the man is frequently portrayed as silly and foolish. Dumb. It's pc to insult men and portray them as dolts. Marketers (another group to be wary of) have no qualms about it. But try and find some that do the opposite. I'm not encouraging marketers to start up some mysoginistic commercials, but it's certainly alarming that it's become pc to be hateful and insulting to men.

    Meanwhile, men are expected to be pillars of strength, to never show weakness, or even emotion. There are men's support groups, but for every one their seems to be several women's support groups. A google query reveals too many grants and resources for single mothers going to college to mention. I couldn't find one for single fathers.

    Listening to the news yesterday, the shooter, who committed a horrible and unjustifiable act, hurting many more people than the twenty he shot, was described as a "lonely loser". This is a profile specific to young men, apparently. There is no talk of how to handle these people before they become dangerous, only what happens when they do...

    Given these things, I can't help but wonder, do many women find alot of men, particularly those they would not call "alpha males" to be expendable nuisances? Do many men feel the same way?

    I realize many will scoff at the question, but I truly believe the 'weaker,' or, 'loner,' male is to today's society what the unattractive female was a generation or two ago.

    Excellent post. I have been discarded by society and women. But I'm not violent and don't take out my problems on other people. Trying to figure out how to improve my lot in life, but it's not easy work. The same alpha male skillsets help you not only with women, but in employment. I did everything I had to to be successful (top university, grad school, did incredibly well in school) but couldn't get work in my field to save my life because I don't have that skillset. Not trying to whine or anything right now, as I'm actively trying to improve my life, but I'm not sure if this can be accomplished before I'm of retirement age anyways.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by femaleluver2
    Can someone describe to me what an alpha male is?
    The kind of guy that has no problem getting women. An alpha male is a leader, not a follower. He has confidence (ie tries to have sex on the first date), though women claim they hate this, they love the confidence it takes to try that. An alpha is what I am not, thus my moniker.

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