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Thread: Are Quebec's anglophones at risk?

  1. #1

    Question Are Quebec's anglophones at risk?

    A report Wednesday has some dire news for Montreal's anglophone community.

    It says the community is dying a slow death, suffers from a lack of leadership and has little or no unity.

    The Quebec Community Groups Network report focused on greater Montreal, where 700,000 English speakers live.

    The report makes a number of recommendations:

    • One is for Anglos to improve their French skills.
    • The report calls on governments to hire more English-speaking workers.
    • The document also calls on English school boards to work together to fight issues like declining enrolment.
    • The report also suggests the creation of an online database for the English community.


    The report also talks about health care, saying some Montreal anglophones do not have access to health care services in English.

    Here is the link to the story:

    http://montreal.ctv.ca/cfcf/news/cfcf#

    What do you think of this report? Are anglophones in Quebec doomed in the long-run?

    GG

  2. #2
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    I think the major factor due to the decline of Quebec's anglophones is the law that requires all immigrants to attend french school and that your kids can only attend english school if you yourself attended english school. Even french speaking parents cannot send their kids to english school because they themselves never attended english school. They say that this law is to protect the french language but what it is doing is slowly weeding out the Quebec anglophones which it has done over the past 20 years and is responsible for the closing of alot of english schools.


    Just my 2 cents worth

    The Don
    "Just When I Thought I Was Out.....They Pull Me Back In!!!"

  3. #3
    The long run? I think within the next generation we will see english public schools vanish unless measures are taken very soon. I consider that to be the short run.

    One is for Anglos to improve their French skills.: How will that help the english community survive? It will just make assimilation easier.

    The document also calls on English school boards to work together to fight issues like declining enrollment. How can they increase enrollment when the majority of students are prevented by law from attending english schools?

    The report also suggests the creation of an online database for the English community. That would be perfect!! Let's just list the population numbers and watch it count down to zero! Kind of like a 'dead pool', people could place bets on the exact date that english is wiped out from Quebec. Loto-Quebec could even run a lottery based on it. Maybe they could sell enough tickets to repair the roads.


    English is being systematically eliminated in the province of Quebec. But what does anyone expect when laws make the language all but illegal. That was the purpose of Bill 101 after all. If this was done to any other identifiable ethnic group it would be called ethnic cleansing. Here in Quebec, it's called protecting a culture.

    Techman
    And the Lord said unto John, "Come forth and receive eternal life." But John came fifth and won a toaster.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Techman
    English is being systematically eliminated in the province of Quebec. But what does anyone expect when laws make the language all but illegal. That was the purpose of Bill 101 after all. If this was done to any other identifiable ethnic group it would be called ethnic cleansing. Here in Quebec, it's called protecting a culture.
    Techman,

    Don't hold back now. I don't want this thread to degenerate by stating that the Bill 101 laws are a form of 'ethnic cleansing'. I do not subscribe to this view. I think the law serves its purpose for education but it is stupid for store signs.

    One thing that French Quebecers are quick to point out is that before the Quiet Revolution, they were second class citizens in Quebec and systematically discriminated against by the powerful English Quebecers.

    Now, the tables have turned. French Quebecers are much better off than English Quebecers. The unemployment rate among anglophones & allophones is much higher than that of francophones.

    I am afraid that this will persist for a few generations but I am hoping that the next revolution will even things out.

    GG

    P.S. My biggest pet peeve is when Quebec's anglophones or allophones refuse to learn French (or vice versa, when French Quebecers refuse to learn English). Another huge pet peeve is when a French Quebecer tells me to go live in Toronto or the USA. I am thinking "F@ck you, you ignorant fool!"
    Last edited by General Gonad; 09-19-2007 at 10:44 PM.

  5. #5
    GG, what purpose does Bill 101 serve in education other that the elimination of english schools? It prevents immigrants and french Quebecers from becoming proficient in the most important language in the world which creates an immobile workforce with limited options.

    And yes, I know how much some french Canadians love to live in the past and to use the present to get their revenge. They should get over it already and learn how to live and work together to build a province worth living in.

    As far as french Quebecers being better off is concerned...they really aren't. They are stuck here in a declining province without the ability to move elsewhere. That's hardly better off. It's more like trapped.

    By the way...I think that everyone who lives and works in Montreal should do their best to at least become functionally bilingual. That includes the english, french and immigrants.

    The english do not have a 'few generations' left here in Quebec. If something doesn't change, within the next 20 years english schools will vanish and soon after that so will the english community.

    Techman
    And the Lord said unto John, "Come forth and receive eternal life." But John came fifth and won a toaster.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Techman
    GG, what purpose does Bill 101 serve in education other that the elimination of english schools? It prevents immigrants and french Quebecers from becoming proficient in the most important language in the world which creates an immobile workforce with limited options.
    Bill 101 applies for grade school and high school. It does not apply for CEGEP or university, which are arguably far more important for one's education.

    Quote Originally Posted by Techman
    And yes, I know how much some French Canadians love to live in the past and to use the present to get their revenge. They should get over it already and learn how to live and work together to build a province worth living in.

    As far as French Quebecers being better off is concerned...they really aren't. They are stuck here in a declining province without the ability to move elsewhere. That's hardly better off. It's more like trapped.

    By the way...I think that everyone who lives and works in Montreal should do their best to at least become functionally bilingual. That includes the English, French and immigrants.
    I stated that French Quebecers are better off relative to English Quebecers and allophones here. This is a fact. Most French Quebecers will never leave this province but the well educated ones are already leaving this province (doctors, lawyers, engineers, etc).

    Quote Originally Posted by Techman
    The english do not have a 'few generations' left here in Quebec. If something doesn't change, within the next 20 years english schools will vanish and soon after that so will the english community.
    I disagree with you. As long as we have English universities and CEGEPS, Montreal will have a vibrant anglophone community.

    GG

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by General Gonad
    A report Wednesday has some dire news for Montreal's anglophone community.

    It says the community is dying a slow death, suffers from a lack of leadership and has little or no unity...
    Whaaahahaha!! Hahaha!! LOL!!!! I'm psiisng in my pants laughing!!!

    Seriously! English community dying in Québec! That must be a joke!
    -Parents who went to english schools can still send their kids to english school, only new arrivals and french-speaking natives can't, in order to prevent the assimilation of francophones in the sea of english.
    - lots of immigrants refuse to learn french,
    - there's a huge amount of english institutions, including schools and hospitals. There's no reason they would dissapear since there's no reason the english population dissapear, unless they move-out!
    - english peoples can be served in english 99% of the time in Québec,
    - Quebac is surrounded by english, there will always be english around Quebec and due to this, the english population of Quebec will always have support.

    Unimaginable how some peoples have nothing to do better than writing fiction stories based on nothing concrete and then, since it's garbage they could never publish as a novel, they try to convince peoples it's the truth! They live in their own imaginary world and they would like others to join them because they feel alone in their mediocrity.

  8. #8

    Smile The Internet Effect

    Quote Originally Posted by Techman
    The long run? I think within the next generation we will see english public schools vanish unless measures are taken very soon. I consider that to be the short run.

    One is for Anglos to improve their French skills.: How will that help the english community survive? It will just make assimilation easier.

    The document also calls on English school boards to work together to fight issues like declining enrollment. How can they increase enrollment when the majority of students are prevented by law from attending english schools?

    The report also suggests the creation of an online database for the English community. That would be perfect!! Let's just list the population numbers and watch it count down to zero! Kind of like a 'dead pool', people could place bets on the exact date that english is wiped out from Quebec. Loto-Quebec could even run a lottery based on it. Maybe they could sell enough tickets to repair the roads.


    English is being systematically eliminated in the province of Quebec. But what does anyone expect when laws make the language all but illegal. That was the purpose of Bill 101 after all. If this was done to any other identifiable ethnic group it would be called ethnic cleansing. Here in Quebec, it's called protecting a culture.

    Techman
    During the last two months I have had the opportunity to travel to certain regions of Quebec - Saguenay / Lac St. Jean, Mauricie, Abitibi - Temiscaminque, Laurentides, Estrie. The commonality is the inroads made by the internet coupled with cable or satelite TV and the resulting global view. The younger generation is quickly learning English in spite of the legislation and the schools.

    People involved in sports and recreation appreciate that they need English to improve their ability to contribute in their field.

    As for public schools - best thing for education would be the elimination of the public sector in education. Private schools are the way to go.

  9. #9

    Question

    Quote Originally Posted by eastender
    As for public schools - best thing for education would be the elimination of the public sector in education. Private schools are the way to go.
    Huh??? Eliminate public education and what next, public health care?

    Please explain your logic.

    GG

  10. #10

    Smile Preserve Jobs

    Quote Originally Posted by Techman
    GG, what purpose does Bill 101 serve in education other that the elimination of english schools?
    Techman
    Under the old confessional school system Catholic / Protestant teachers in the Catholic system, both French and English were priests and nuns. In the 1960's this started to change drastically especially in the French Catholic
    School Commissions. Young francophones, male and female chose teaching as a career and many entered the profession in the late 1960's into the early 1980's.

    The English Protestant School Commissions had a shortage of teachers immediately after WWII and into the early 1960's.

    It became evident in the early 1960's that the baby boom was going to end and that there would be a surplus of English teachers and schools. The effects of the baby boom was mitigated in the French schools by the fact that girls extended their education significantly while boys also continued beyond previously accepted levels. This is evidenced by the growth of the French CEGEP system starting from the mid 1960's and the expansion of U de M as well as the creation and expansion of U de Q campuses throughout the province.

    By 1976 it became obvious that unless something was done to direct students to the French schools many of the newly created teaching jobs would be lost would and since the French teachers did not have mobility there would be a significant unemployment / under employment crisis. Hence the resulting legislation with job protection,easy tenure,etc.

    The English sector was barely at risk since the teachers could retire after 35 years of service or move elsewhere. Since large numbers were hired in the 1946 - 1950 era job shrinkage by attrition was going to solve the problem by the mid eighties.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by metoo4
    Whaaahahaha!! Hahaha!! LOL!!!! I'm psiisng in my pants laughing!!!

    Seriously! English community dying in Québec! That must be a joke!
    -Parents who went to english schools can still send their kids to english school, only new arrivals and french-speaking natives can't, in order to prevent the assimilation of francophones in the sea of english.
    - lots of immigrants refuse to learn french,
    - there's a huge amount of english institutions, including schools and hospitals. There's no reason they would dissapear since there's no reason the english population dissapear, unless they move-out!
    - english peoples can be served in english 99% of the time in Québec,
    - Quebac is surrounded by english, there will always be english around Quebec and due to this, the english population of Quebec will always have support.

    Unimaginable how some peoples have nothing to do better than writing fiction stories based on nothing concrete and then, since it's garbage they could never publish as a novel, they try to convince peoples it's the truth! They live in their own imaginary world and they would like others to join them because they feel alone in their mediocrity.
    First of all, the birthrate of english Quebecers is in the toilet along with the birthrate of french Quebecers. They simply aren't having enough children to send to the schools for them to remain open. Couple the low birthrate with the number of people who move out of Quebec each year and within a generation, 20 years, there will not be enough of an english population to justify their schools. In the last year alone, according to reports I heard today, the english community had a net loss of 30,000 people here in Quebec. This will only increase as the economy in this province continues to sink and taxes continue to rise to pay for repairs to our failing infrastructure and health system. People who have the ability and the education to find better paying jobs outside of Quebec, who tend to be from the english community, will continue to leave so that they can better their lives. After they have gotten their low cost education here of course.

    So guess what, metoo4? The english community is indeed 'moving out' as you put it. It may take a bit more than a generation, but not much more. Unless things change. Starting now.

    Techman
    And the Lord said unto John, "Come forth and receive eternal life." But John came fifth and won a toaster.

  12. #12

    Smile Quality

    Quote Originally Posted by General Gonad
    Huh??? Eliminate public education and what next, public health care?

    Please explain your logic.

    GG
    GG,

    Do not mistake free and quality. More often than not the distinction between free and worthless is very thin.

    Quality of education - look at the soon to be published school ratings and the distinct advantage enjoyed by the private schools.

    Private schools do receive government subsidies. Once the guaranteed jobs that tenured teachers have in the public sector disappear via retirement by 2017 the related fixed costs would not have to be mitigated.

    Private schools are run efficiently. Offer a greater variety of programs since they do not have to answer to unions or in instances where there are unions they have significantly reduced powers in the private sector.

    Public schools could have a minimalist role just as public health care should assure minimal health care.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by metoo4
    Whaaahahaha!! Hahaha!! LOL!!!! I'm psiisng in my pants laughing!!!

    Seriously! English community dying in Québec! That must be a joke!
    -Parents who went to english schools can still send their kids to english school, only new arrivals and french-speaking natives can't, in order to prevent the assimilation of francophones in the sea of english.
    - lots of immigrants refuse to learn french,
    - there's a huge amount of english institutions, including schools and hospitals. There's no reason they would dissapear since there's no reason the english population dissapear, unless they move-out!
    - english peoples can be served in english 99% of the time in Québec,
    - Quebac is surrounded by english, there will always be english around Quebec and due to this, the english population of Quebec will always have support.

    Unimaginable how some peoples have nothing to do better than writing fiction stories based on nothing concrete and then, since it's garbage they could never publish as a novel, they try to convince peoples it's the truth! They live in their own imaginary world and they would like others to join them because they feel alone in their mediocrity.

    Best post yet and by the way I'm French and I consider my English to be pretty good and I don't know a lot of French that don't listen to TV or read in English. But I know many Anglophones who don't even try French. Don't get me wrong here I'm not even a separatist but i would like people trying to learn the most spoken language of the province they are living in.

    Anyway French is such a nice language once you master it.

    But the most important thing is to be able to communicate with each other even if it is by sign or drawing lol

    TOWMA
    _______________________________________________________________

    I just love Montreal diversity so much

  14. #14

    Smile

    Quote Originally Posted by Techman
    People who have the ability and the education to find better paying jobs outside of Quebec, who tend to be from the english community, will continue to leave so that they can better their lives. After they have gotten their low cost education here of course.

    Techman
    Actually this is impacting the French medical professionals as bilingual nurses and doctors are moving to the USA after getting there low cost education here. Headhunters regularly target Montreal.

    Also true for U de M law school grads,HEC grads,scientists, and other skilled professionals.

    Then you have the French speaking hockey players who do not want to come back here as free agents or who retire and stay in the USA.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by eastender
    ...
    By 1976 it became obvious that unless something was done to direct students to the French schools many of the newly created teaching jobs would be lost would and since the French teachers did not have mobility there would be a significant unemployment / under employment crisis. Hence the resulting legislation with job protection,easy tenure,etc.

    The English sector was barely at risk since the teachers could retire after 35 years of service or move elsewhere. Since large numbers were hired in the 1946 - 1950 era job shrinkage by attrition was going to solve the problem by the mid eighties.
    So to save jobs you put in motion laws to destroy the english community? Maybe if they learned english they would have had the mobility they so sorely lacked.

    Camille Laurin himself, the father of Bill 101, once stated in an interview that the end goal of the legislation was to eliminate the english school system. I would say it has been a smashing success.

    From wikipedia, on Laurin...

    He was one of the early founders of the Quebec sovereignty movement, seeing independence from Canada as a necessary collective psychotherapy to treat the inferiority complex of the Québécois. As a senior cabinet minister in the first PQ government elected in the 1976 Quebec election, he was the guiding force behind the Bill 101, the legislation that placed restrictions on the use of English and established French as the only official language in Quebec. Premier René Lévesque later defended the law, but was initially reluctant to it in private. Lévesque called it a "necessary humiliation" because having to legislate the status of the language of the majority showed the "colonial situation" of Quebec.
    I guess that inferiority complex idea of mine was right on the money. Even Camille Laurin believed in it. Too bad so many french Quebecers deny it.

    Techman
    And the Lord said unto John, "Come forth and receive eternal life." But John came fifth and won a toaster.

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