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Thread: American Clients .... You may soon be criminals...

  1. #1

    American Clients .... You may soon be criminals...

    Hi Everybody,

    I am getting a bit behind on my reading, and just got around to looking at
    last week's "Economist" (Aug 16-22) today. Page 59 states that :

    "Since 2002, the policy of the United States has been to oppose
    prostitution, and to urge all governments to "reduce the demand" for
    prostitutes through education and by punishing those who patronise
    them...... "

    Now for the scary part....

    ".... As passed by the House of Representatives last year, a new bill on
    protecting the victims of human trafficking could have made it illegal for
    Americans to consort with prostitutes anywhere in the world ( even when
    the prostitutes are adults, and in countries where buying sex is legal)..."

    My understanding is that this bill has not yet been passed into law, but that
    it is working its way towards passage in some form or other.

    Can anyone add further information on this issue?

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vancouver Tim
    Hi Everybody,

    I am getting a bit behind on my reading, and just got around to looking at
    last week's "Economist" (Aug 16-22) today. Page 59 states that :

    "Since 2002, the policy of the United States has been to oppose
    prostitution, and to urge all governments to "reduce the demand" for
    prostitutes through education and by punishing those who patronise
    them...... "

    Now for the scary part....

    ".... As passed by the House of Representatives last year, a new bill on
    protecting the victims of human trafficking could have made it illegal for
    Americans to consort with prostitutes anywhere in the world ( even when
    the prostitutes are adults, and in countries where buying sex is legal)..."

    My understanding is that this bill has not yet been passed into law, but that
    it is working its way towards passage in some form or other.

    Can anyone add further information on this issue?
    Hello VT,

    So they are going to clean up internationally what they cannot clean up at home.

    Cool,

    Korbel
    Korbie: of the Boston Red Sox Nation...the NBA Champion Boston Celtics Pride...and...the New England Patriots Dynasty!

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Korbel
    Hello VT,

    So they are going to clean up internationally what they cannot clean up at home.

    Cool,

    Korbel
    Much like with 'democracy'.

    could have made it illegal for Americans to consort with prostitutes anywhere in the world ( even when the prostitutes are adults, and in countries where buying sex is legal)...
    How is this even possible? The US does not have jurisdiction over what happens on foreign soil. Besides, how would they find out? You can't be convicted of it in a country where it is legal; how would word get back?
    Last edited by Agrippa; 08-26-2008 at 10:56 PM.
    Amantes sunt amentes.

  4. #4

    Post Economist - Drawing lines in a dark place

    The full article from http://www.economist.com/

    People-trafficking and people-smuggling
    Drawing lines in a dark place
    Aug 14th 2008
    From The Economist print edition


    Coercing hapless human beings into sex or servitude is obviously evil, but defining the problem (let alone solving it) is very hard

    LIVING from the forced labour, or unwillingly provided sexual services, of vulnerable people is a horrific business, and more should be done to punish the perpetrators and succour the victims. That is a sentiment to which almost all governments readily assent, even in the (quite large) slice of the world where links exist between officialdom, the police and the shady types who trade in flesh.

    And at least in principle, cross-border trafficking is acknowledged to be so manifestly dreadful that every civilised state must be seen to help correct this wrong. As one sign of this feeling, a Council of Europe convention on trafficking went into force this year; 17 countries have ratified it.

    The American government has for the past eight years been mandated by law to wage a many-fronted struggle against human trafficking, at home and around the world. And some hard arguments are now raging in Washington, involving politicians, lobby groups and rival government agencies, about whether the struggle should be escalated.

    Why, one might ask, should there be arguments about an issue that, in moral terms, seems so clear-cut? Mainly because the precise definition of trafficking, and hence of trafficking victims, is in reality quite difficult—whether you are a policeman or a moral philosopher.

    Among pundits, people-trafficking is distinguished from the lesser evil of people-smuggling—an uncomfortable but almost unavoidable part of social reality in areas that adjoin rich countries with a demand for labour. In Kosovo, it is an open secret that you can be whisked illegally to Vienna by paying €4,000 ($6,000) to a professional smuggler. The Bosnian town of Bijeljina, once a black spot for ethnic cleansing, is now a way-station for south Asians who pay around $16,000 per head to be smuggled into the EU heartland: half on departure and half on arrival.

    People-smuggling is done with the consent of those involved; they have no further debt to the gangsters who abet them once they arrive. Trafficking means moving people under duress or false pretences—or in order to use them for forced labour (ranging from domestic work to commercial sex). So the theory goes; but in practice, as the latest State Department report concedes, there is an overlap between the two activities. It often happens, for example, that a poor Indian is hired for menial work in a Gulf state—only to find that his wage is much less than promised, and his passport is seized. This leads to a form of servitude, and that person’s treatment could be called trafficking.

    Despite the grey area, public perception of the two problems often diverges. In Australia, for example, public opinion favours a tough line over people-smuggling—but there has been a surge of sympathy for the victims of trafficking (often brought to Australia from Thailand or Indochina) since the release last year of “The Jammed”, a film set in a Melbourne brothel.

    And in recent years both the sharper definition of, and the fight against, human-trafficking have become a high priority for the State Department; its grading of other countries’ anti-trafficking efforts is an elaborate and closely-watched business. Countries in “tier 1” (including most of the EU but not Ireland, Greece, Estonia or Latvia) are deemed to comply fully with the minimum standards of American law. Those in “tier 2” don’t yet comply but are trying hard. A lower tier, labelled “Watch List”, consists of countries that are trying, but not hard enough or with good enough results. In the bottom “tier 3” (including American allies like Saudi Arabia) are those that are neither complying nor trying hard enough. Even rickety post-Soviet states (see chart) can improve their scores if they follow what is deemed to be the right advice.

    As the State Department has found, it is hard to discuss cross-border trafficking without looking at what occurs inside countries. Its reports have thus broadened into a more general look at the ways in which people are forced to work or have sex against their will. Servitude, it finds, can take many forms: for example, children are mutilated and forced to beg—or else fight in ghastly wars. Slavery, the State Department suggests, happens in many successful emerging economies; it cites bonded labour in Brazil’s plantations, or children working long hours making bricks in China. Indeed, bits of the department’s 2008 report read as though they were penned by a left-of-centre NGO, decrying the dark side of globalisation.

    And some of the other ideological issues now coming to a head in Washington are even more contentious. Behind them all is an emotive question: whether there can be such a thing as willing prostitution.

    How far can you go?
    Since 2002, the policy of the United States has been to oppose prostitution, and to urge all governments to “reduce the demand” for prostitutes through education and by punishing those who patronise them. But how far can this principle be pressed? As passed by the House of Representatives last year, a new bill on protecting the victims of trafficking could have made it illegal for Americans to consort with prostitutes anywhere in the world (even when the prostitutes are adults, and in countries where buying sex is legal). The House version of the bill would also broaden the obligations of America’s federal (as opposed to state) authorities to curb the trafficking of sex workers inside the country. The Justice Department (amid many other objections) said all this would place a huge burden on federal agencies that are already overstretched.

    Supporters of stepping up the fight (who range from feminist groups to the religious right) compare their campaign to that of William Wilberforce, whose efforts to free the British empire’s slaves bore fruit 200 years ago. John Miller, an ex-head of the State Department’s anti-trafficking programme, has deplored the Justice Department’s campaign to modify the proposed legislation; its complaints, he says, imply leniency towards an absolute evil, slavery. But the American Civil Liberties Union, a lobby group, has praised the Senate for deleting language which, in its view, would make prostitution and trafficking virtually identical. Lots more arguments can be expected before the bill reaches the White House.

    In fact, says Jorgen Carling, a Norwegian who has studied the trafficking of Nigerian women to Europe, it is rarely possible to draw the absolutely clear line that policymakers want between “innocent victimhood” and “willing participation” in sex work. For example, people may know that they are being taken abroad as sex workers, but have no idea of the harsh conditions, and the absolute loss of control over their lives, that they will face. This may be an area of life where most people can recognise evil when they see the details of one horrifying case—but where it will always be hard to make hard-and-fast rules that suit every country.
    Amantes sunt amentes.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Agrippa

    How is this even possible? The US does not have jurisdiction over what happens on foreign soil. Besides, how would they find out? You can't be convicted of it in a country where it is legal; how would word get back?
    Hi Agrippa,

    Canada has done this too with respect to other matters... click on the Canadian Flag....

    http://www.thefuturegroup.org/youwillbecaught/laws.html


    ----------------------------------------

    Geez if the Breadman starts coming back to Canada from the States, Bush will declare that there is a weapon of mass destruction here and invade us....

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agrippa
    Much like with 'democracy'.

    How is this even possible? The US does not have jurisdiction over what happens on foreign soil. Besides, how would they find out? You can't be convicted of it in a country where it is legal; how would word get back?
    Hello Agrippa,

    I have heard of this before. It has something to do with the American government's claim that they maintain jurisdiction over American citizens wherever they are and that these citizens cannot circumvent American law by going outside the country....or some assertion of a similar sort. I did see some news reports where two men were arrested after it was found they engaged in child prostitution somewhere in Asia. Well, having failed to enforce current anti-sodomy laws in many states I guess they are looking for something to redeem themselves...lol. This smells of conservative Biblical morality, but I guess they aren't the only ones.

    Peeeuuuuu,

    Korbel
    Last edited by korbel; 08-26-2008 at 11:25 PM.
    Korbie: of the Boston Red Sox Nation...the NBA Champion Boston Celtics Pride...and...the New England Patriots Dynasty!

  7. #7
    Canada was going to enact a law that would make it a crime in Canada to have sex with a monkey in a foreign country.

    After extremely strong lobbying against the idea from Alberta the federal government dropped the whole idea.

    Curiously there is now a strong grass roots movement in Alberta to have such a law, but it would only be an offense if the monkey was the same gender as the tourist.

    This mirrored a debate in Arkansas in the late 50's except there it was with respect to siblings and cousins.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Dee
    Hi Agrippa,

    Canada has done this too with respect to other matters... click on the Canadian Flag....

    http://www.thefuturegroup.org/youwillbecaught/laws.html
    I had no idea this was possible. So you get two trials? Two sentences? Makes no sense.

    Either way, the Canadian law/Economist article prohibit/argue against child molesting/human trafficking... no issues there.
    Amantes sunt amentes.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dee
    Canada was going to enact a law that would make it a crime in Canada to have sex with a monkey in a foreign country.

    After extremely strong lobbying against the idea from Alberta the federal government dropped the whole idea.

    Curiously there is now a strong grass roots movement in Alberta to have such a law, but it would only be an offense if the monkey was the same gender as the tourist.

    This mirrored a debate in Arkansas in the late 50's except there it was with respect to siblings and cousins.
    Thanks Dee,

    You crack me up...lol.

    Funny,

    Korbel
    Korbie: of the Boston Red Sox Nation...the NBA Champion Boston Celtics Pride...and...the New England Patriots Dynasty!

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Korbel
    Hello Agrippa,

    I have heard of this before. It has something to do with the American government's claim that they maintain jurisdiction over American citizens wherever they are and that these citizens cannot circumvent American law by going outside the country....or some assertion of a similar sort. I did see some news reports where two men were arrested after it was found they engaged in child prostitution somewhere in Asia. Well, having failed to enforce current anti-sodomy laws in many states I guess they are looking for something to redeem themselves...lol. This smells of conservative Biblical morality, but I guess they aren't the only ones.

    Peeeuuuuu,

    Korbel
    It indeed stinks. I can see the reasoning... traveling under a US passport... citizen... etc, but what happens to extradition? You serve to sentences? How do they find out if you can't be convicted of anything while there? As the article points out, they have their hands full policing the US... how are they going to keep an eye on other countries? I say it won't work... they'll pick a poor sap once in a while to say "Look we're tough on crime. We're fighting the war on terror/drugs/prostitution!" Put on a show and that's it. Won't make a dent.

    Indeed this is again the reification of outdated morality.
    Amantes sunt amentes.

  11. #11
    It is already illegal for US military.

    IIRC, there are also existing laws against being a pimp in a foreign country, but that's only if you are a US government employee or contractor, and you're in the foreign country on official business.

    Within the US, it's a state misdemeanor. How does that get translated to a federal felony, if you are on foreign soil, of all places?

    And ... what about Nevada?

  12. #12

    What about the Netherlands?

    What about the Netherlands?

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Korbel
    Hello Agrippa,

    This smells of conservative Biblical morality, but I guess they aren't the only ones.
    Korbel - Yes, conservative bible thumpers are not the only people that want to tell you how to live. This is usually part of the liberal militant feminist agenda as well. And remember this...If a politcian can get reelected by supporting a new law..., liberal or conservative, democrat or repubilican, they will support it.

  14. #14
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    The Canadian law has been used in cases of internet child porn.

    Ronnie,
    Naughtylady
    They will forget what you said,
    they will forget what you did,
    but they will never forget the way you made them feel.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by CWipes
    What about the Netherlands?
    Forget the Netherlands or any other country for that matter.

    What about Nevada???

    How can they be so self righteous when there are legal brothels in the USA?

    Techman
    And the Lord said unto John, "Come forth and receive eternal life." But John came fifth and won a toaster.

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