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Thread: Sex Worker's Security...

  1. #1

    Sex Worker's Security...

    In the past few days, there have seemed to be many more discussions going on about the sex worker's security. Strangely enough though, it isn't something new, nor something no one is aware of. Unfortunately, many men do not take it seriously, will turn a blind eye over it or even worse, will consider any type of warnings about it as a threat on their lifestyle. Even in this day and age, with a crowd that many would consider to be "very open minded" and "liberal", it is still a taboo to talk about the sex worker's safety.

    Why is this still something so bad to talk about the dangers we encounter on a daily basis as sex workers?

    It surely seems that for many men, a sex worker is there to satisfy their pleasures and needs but anything beyond that point is not relevant, unimportant or non-existant. It is even more sad to see that still, for many, when one girl has the courage to go up front and talk about her safety being jeopardized by someone, she is very quickly accused to be a shit disturber or a whining "princess".

    Obviously, most women who freely engages in this type of "profession" has a certain knowledge of the dangers that she can be facing. Is this a reason to not take these things seriously?

    For the longest times, these things have been hidden, each woman suffering on her own from what has happened to her, without any support, any help, any ways to wash the pain and fear away. Even amongst her sisters, she would only find more hate and rejection. Again, it is very unfortunate but it still happens everyday...

    This doesn't only applies to the street workers who do risk their lives in many more ways than we do. It also applies to the women (mp, dancers, sp : LDL/HDH/indys/agencies) who advertise their services on the internet. I would not even be surprised if in a few years from now, our safety isn't more at risk than the street workers. Only a few things come to mind such as :

    - Indentity (address, phone numbers, name, etc)
    - Different clientèle who would never meet street workers (because it would conflict with their values) but who feel it is more acceptable to meet a woman on the internet

    We might not mainly attract the "serial killer" type of men or the "physicaly abusive", but there is surely a wide range of mentaly and emotionaly unstable men we might attract. It is not something unknown by any internet users that many people do not have a real life beyond their 4 walls and computer screen. I guess we are more likely to attract the "obsessed", "friendless", "desperate" and "lifeless" type of men. And because of this great information media those message boards are we also attract the ones who want to push the limits further than other reviewers.

    Here are a some incidents I have seen from my side of the fence (which is too often hidden to the men out there) :

    - Women being drugged up and raped (very very often!!! must be the most frequent risk)
    - Women being the pray of a stalker
    - Women receiving threats
    - Women who had to restart a new life more than once because some angry client would destroy any attempts she did in order to move out from the "business"

    This is all very little some of you might think. I wonder if any men who thinks this way has ever wake up sore, not remembering anything that has happened and praying for the next year that each blood test they pass doesn't come up as HIV positive. And to top it all, realise a few months later that you are pregnant carrying this unwanted child from a man who's identity is sometimes not even his real one... How many men know that exact feeling? Many of us have experienced this kind of feeling more than once.

    Without getting into generalizations, in many cases I've witness, the threat is not from "out of towners", it is very often by our local men!

    And then they wonder :

    -Why don't they want to see local people?
    - Why are they asking me for my real name and a work phone number?
    - Why do they want references?
    - Why they won't come to my house?
    - Why they won't go to motels?
    - Why they don't offer incall?
    etc, etc, etc.

    Well, just understand this : You might be (in majority) a very legit, trustable and normal individual but you are being screened because of the (minority) of abnormal and dangerous people out there. Yes, as unrealistic as it may seem, they are out there and they exist! (believe me, it's not a myth or a legend!).

    And you are so concerned about your identity! And what if the sex worker would black mail you and threatened you? Of course, the legal system wouldn't work on your favour! It works in the favour of the person who is being the victim of a criminal act : REPORT IT! Also when you file a police report, your wife (if that is your main concern) doesn't even have to know about it! We also have a lot to lose if we do not do things properly (and I am not talking about losing our reputation, I am talking about our security). I also do not think that most men we deal with are "Eliot Spitzer" and that we could sell their names in our memoirs. Please do not be offended, but even if I was lucky enough to meet my share of very interesting and fascinating men, I do not think that bringing our stories to the New York Times will be that fascinating to them . Especially not after Heidi Fleiss and Natalie McLennan!

    I am also not saying to trust just anyone in this business with your identity or information. Just use your judgement!

    Ladies, if ever anything bad happens to you call Stella! Even if they cannot help you directly, they will help you finding the proper resources.

    In a perfect world, this message would be read, understood and accepted positively and would help improving the relationships you and us are sharing.

    Now you can go ahead and shoot the messenger.
    Last edited by Lilly Lombard; 11-21-2008 at 03:12 PM.
    "It's a God-given talent. It was meant to be shared with the public." (Moustache, Irma La Douce, 1963)

    www.lillyofmontreal.com

  2. #2

    Both side of the same coin

    Lilly you are right, there are danger for sex workers from clients. But the opposite is also true Some of the workers can also be endangered by sex workers/drivers and agency owner. Some of us give a minimum of information when meeting a lady. But still some other give enough information so that our real identity could be shown. Other give more information on the pillow

    SW want to keep their privacy about the business because they know it's not well accepted. But most of the men you encounter have a career and a life. They go into the hobby for a multitude of reason and want to keep the hobby separated. They know that if a SW want and get enough info and is not well adjusted/angry she can cause a lot of problem to someone. Not only SW angry ex-girlfriend also.

    For both party there are risk, because when your meeting someone new there is some risk involved. Maybe I sound bitter but I'm not, nothing bad happened to me. But if someone is starting to harassing you, be it a man/women/whatever? the post by JAG about what to do is relevant for anyone, collect information and if it escalate call help.

    Remember there are bad apple, but there are also good peach and banana on both side
    Last edited by longseek; 11-15-2008 at 10:44 AM.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by longseek
    Lilly you are right, there are danger for sex workers from clients. But the opposite is also true Some of the workers can also be endangered by sex workers/drivers and agency owner. Some of us give a minimum of information when meeting a lady. But still some other give enough information so that our real identity could be shown. Other give more information on the pillow

    SW want to keep their privacy about the business because they know it's not well accepted. But most of the men you encounter have a career and a life. They go into the hobby for a multitude of reason and want to keep the hobby separated. They know that if a SW want and get enough info and is not well adjusted/angry she can cause a lot of problem to someone. Not only SW angry ex-girlfriend also.

    For both party there are risk, because when your meeting someone new there is some risk involved. Maybe I sound bitter but I'm not, nothing bad happened to me. But if someone is starting to harassing you, be it a man/women/whatever? the post by JAG about what to do is relevant for anyone, collect information and if it escalate call help.
    I agree with all you say here. Obviously most of your lives are already settled and in order while most of us are still struggling to meet month's end, study, take care of kids and family etc. But for that, would it still be allright that our real life employer knows this other side? That our children and parents know what we did for a living for some time... Or worse, that our children become orphans?

    There has to be a way for both parties to protect themselves. There has to be a way to disclose some information about who we are meeting without giving the workers the possibility to turn those people's lives around.

    Actually, I've seen some providers in Toronto asking for a picture of the person. Really, what is wrong with a picture, could have been found on a facebook profile! And they delete it after the appointment if it went well. No real reason to keep it. And how can you invade one's privacy with a picture? But at least you can give it to the police and say "this is what the man looked like".

    And the real name and work phone number? What is so unsafe about this one? The employer is not allowed to give your home address and for the woman, it confirms you are who you say you are.

    I still wonder about the endangerd part tough. I am sure there has been some cases of men being attacked by unlegit agency drivers or girls but then again, this is what these boards are for. And often, these agencies cannot be found outside of these boards (except maybe newspapers).

    The other way around, our reputation and family and work might not be so important, or at least not as important as yours (some of you might think ) but what about the physical agressions we expose ourselves to on a daily basis.

    What I wonder is what really is more important on a value scale :

    - One's marriage and standing
    or
    - One's life and health


    Yep, the world isn't perfect, there will always be some abusers on both sides and I guess as long as they exist, we will all pay for it.
    "It's a God-given talent. It was meant to be shared with the public." (Moustache, Irma La Douce, 1963)

    www.lillyofmontreal.com

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Lilly Lombard
    The other way around, our reputation and family and work might not be so important, or at least not as important as yours (some of you might think ) but what about the physical agressions we expose ourselves to on a daily basis.

    What I wonder is what really is more important on a value scale :

    - One's marriage and standing
    or
    - One's life and health
    Sorry i didn't mean to imply that the life of the SW isn't important, it is, Both party are human beings. It's just there are way more client than SW, so statistically shit will happen more often to a SW than a client.

    I think both are important, personally I value more life and health. But some people define them self with their marriage, standing and job. For them losing that mean they don't have anymore value and it can drive someone to regrettable and desperate act.

    The problem I have is more that since the rise of the feminism, who had a good reason to happen. We only heard one side of the story to often. I was just trying to bring to everyone attention that both party can be a number of situation whatever the sex they are. I still keep to my belief to most people are genuinely "good". Still you need "bad" to define "good".

  5. #5
    You are very right on all points again.

    Did you happen to find solutions on how to resolve this along the way?
    "It's a God-given talent. It was meant to be shared with the public." (Moustache, Irma La Douce, 1963)

    www.lillyofmontreal.com

  6. #6
    No I did not. I wish i did find a solution to those problem.

    The only solution I can propose is be careful and wish for people to realize what is going on, it is a service exchange and not a relationship. I know that can be hard but still if you can't acknowledge that, you shouldn't be participating in that business either man or woman.

    Still it's an activity that is rather personal and feeling will creep in, even if we try not too. If/When it happen people must realize both person must say yes. If not the person must understand and try to let go.

  7. #7
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    You're 100% right Tony.
    Jules Winnfield (Samuel L. Jackson in Pulp Fiction) English, motherfu*ker, do you speak it?

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  8. #8
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    Hello all,

    I will give you that the risks for the client and the escort can be equally severe and even life-altering in different ways. But it seems to me that the risk element of physical danger puts the escort in a much more precarious position for obvious reasons. Walking into a room to meet a strange guy makes the escorts very vulnerable, especially for the agency girl who has almost no chance of knowing what she is getting into in any given encounter. It must be a bit frightening to meet someone for the first time. The lady cannot know anything about the guy or what might happen.

    Being someone who could not conceive of harming any lady I forget how they must feel and what they may have gone through. I was amazed twice this year to see the very evident relief of two ladies I had not seen in a long while who had huge smiles when they recognized me. At first I dared to think it was about how much fun we had the last time. But then I realized they had just been very relieved to see it was someone they knew they would be safe with.

    It must be scary to see that door open and look into the face of a total stranger you are about to give yourself to. We clients look forward to an encounter with great anticipation of beauty and fantasy sex never fearing for our safety...at least I never have after the first time. But the ladies have to walk into a room never knowing if there is any threat from someone who is nearly always much bigger, and who will soon have them at a great disadvantage. It takes a lot of guts to be an escort. I sure couldn't do it if I was a woman.

    Good luck,

    Merlot

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Merlot

    It must be scary to see that door open and look into the face of a total stranger you are about to give yourself to. We clients look forward to an encounter with great anticipation of beauty and fantasy sex never fearing for our safety...at least I never have after the first time. But the ladies have to walk into a room never knowing if there is any threat from someone who is nearly always much bigger, and who will soon have them at a great disadvantage. It takes a lot of guts to be an escort. I sure couldn't do it if I was a woman.

    Good luck,

    Merlot

    Definitely!

    As I said, there is a lot of normal people out there, I guess 99% (thankfully!). But it is not something you can usually tell at first sight. It is not also something you can tell by a little conversation time. Because of all the normal people, many men thinks that the other guy is just like them.

    As I said before, this : "And because of this great information media those message boards are we also attract the ones who want to push the limits further than other reviewers. "

    will lead to this : "- Women being drugged up and raped (very very often!!! must be the most frequent risk)"

    by some other (supposedly) normal dude men might consider very normal but will not be when the woman shows up.

    It is very sad. It's sad that many reviewers will consider a girl to be "cold" and "suspicious", or a "nut case" if she is on her gards during a meeting. It's only common sens while being a sex worker.

    Another person was suggesting to me to go see a lawyer once a month so we can keep oursleves informed about our rights and know how it is legaly possible to keep ourselves safe.

    I wish there were solutions good for everyone but I guess instead of finding solutions together, this thread will end up being burried under all the other junk here. Or some schmock who might feel threatened will start posting to bring it down.
    "It's a God-given talent. It was meant to be shared with the public." (Moustache, Irma La Douce, 1963)

    www.lillyofmontreal.com

  10. #10
    I used to be a regular of an SP in Toronto and she used to confide in me about her personal life etc. One time she called me up. She went and saw a new client and turns out he slipped something into her drink (or so she suspects). It could have been a roofie, who knows? She said she started feeling really dizzy and sleepy and she recalls trying to wake up in the shower but the client followed her into the shower where she thinks he may have had sex with her bareback! She remembers waking up in the bedroom, all her money and cell phone stolen, the client was no where to be seen. I told her to go to a drugstore and buy the Plan-B aka Morning After Pill to be safe and get tested at the clinic which she did. A few weeks later, the scare had taken its toll and she quit the industry.

    Be safe ladies! Don't leave your drinks unattended and DON'T accept drinks that were poured without you seeing it done! Double that warning for new clients!

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Lilly Lombard
    Definitely!



    I wish there were solutions good for everyone but I guess instead of finding solutions together, this thread will end up being burried under all the other junk here. Or some schmock who might feel threatened will start posting to bring it down.
    What'a a schmock ?

    The 1% that you write about that drug, rape, beat and steal have issues far beyond the scope of discussions and perhaps even beyond therapy. There is probably a greater percentage of bent Johns than there is in the general population simply because the bent probably have fewer options for sexual release. There is often no solution for the really damaged short of incarceration. There is no magic pill for psychopaths. There seems to be no doubt that sex workers are exposed to them far more often that the general public.

    The flip-side of the coin is that there probably is a greater percentage of women with issues in this business than in the general population as well. I have met psychopathic sp's as a client. Women that even my untrained eye could recognize as such. Hell I used to see a girl regularly that I thought was great until there was just one to many stories about a poor schmuck whose life and finances had been ruined because he thought she loved him. I've seen coldness in others that had nothing to do with being cautious. To the point where I ushered them out the door and didn't feel relaxed for sometime afterward. Not because I felt physically threatened but because I just felt I'd come in close contact with something dark .

    Other than awareness I'm not sure what either a client or a sp can do. I provide the information required. One woman recently told me I was more open than most johns.

    I still feel a little uneasy when I get spammed by an HDH agency I have used or by a sp who is touring in the city I live in. I should probably be more secretive but I have always felt I if I was going to fuck someone then the least I could do was give her my name. Bizaree aren't I ?

    I know, I know the reciprical isn't true and I'm an idiot. Actually it is surprising the number of ladies that have told me their real names - and they really don't fit at all but that's another topic.

    I also wish there were good solutions - I'm not sure there are.

  12. #12

    Smile Registry with benefits?

    For the longest times, these things have been hidden, each woman suffering on her own from what has happened to her, without any support, any help, any ways to wash the pain and fear away. Even amongst her sisters, she would only find more hate and rejection. Again, it is very unfortunate but it still happens everyday...
    I also do not think that most men we deal with are "Eliot Spitzer" and that we could sell their names in our memoirs. Please do not be offended, but even if I was lucky enough to meet my share of very interesting and fascinating men, I do not think that bringing our stories to the New York Times will be that fascinating to them . Especially not after Heidi Fleiss and Natalie McLennan!
    I am also not saying to trust just anyone in this business with your identity or information. Just use your judgement!
    There has to be a way for both parties to protect themselves. There has to be a way to disclose some information about who we are meeting without giving the workers the possibility to turn those people's lives around.
    Lilly, this isn't the first time this discussion has surfaced. There is no question that the girls have very right to expect a safe working environment. And oddly enough we guys should be in full support of this. Any client who doesn't see the benefits for clients in general hasn't really considered them. Consider the following to just name a couple:
    First, your comment of the effect that a bad date has on a girl can be quite devastating. This is true. From the point of view of the rest of us, consider the following: How many “sweet” girls have been driven out of the business from one night of terror? How many “sweet” girls develop a very negative opinion of men yet stay and become users, cold and hateful inside. In either case clients everywhere lose.
    Second, there are all sorts of people in this world but mainly nice ones and those who we would just as soon avoid. The reputation of any profession is often what entices people to join. Make it a rough business and you are making the statement that only opportunists and the rough and ready need apply. Who needs a service where one of the prime requisites is that a girl must have the ability to turn into a screaming witch at the first sign of impropriety. Or worse, view all clients as suckers to be fleeced.

    The problem is how do you increase the element of security for the girls? Since this is an activity that is frowned upon legally, it makes it more difficult. But things are changing. Society is becoming more accepting of activities which were once considered taboo. But until that time comes those clients who stand to lose much must maintain anonymity.
    But that isn't true for all of us. And there may be ways, as you suggest, to screen and maintain a client's privacy. For every other similar situation in society the answer always comes down to maintaining some form of registry. Some clients would throw up their hands in horror at this thought. But maybe not all.......... Some really have little or nothing to lose.

    So hypothetically, how might such a registry work? Well believe it or not, some agencies are already laying the groundwork. The latest and most notable is Chris at Devilish. He has created a forum, a kind of mini community complete with bonuses for membership. Now he doesn't yet have the clients identify themselves to the girls to collect on the bonuses but would it be such a big step for some? Just increase the bonuses and watch the idea take off. There are ways, (pictures perhaps, as you suggested tagged to a person's forum handle) that might be a viable compromise. Someone just has to work out the logistics. Could an idea like this work for independents also?

    Are there other benefits? Could it be that some girls would simply work the registry at a lower rate, preferring the idea of a great work environment? Perhaps she had a bad date or perhaps she is a “sweet” girl who can handle nice guys but not the jerks. I am not going out on a limb with predictions but just throwing some scenarios out there.
    Beyond some sort of solution like this I just can't see any other solution.
    Last edited by Regular Guy; 11-16-2008 at 11:51 AM.
    Confucius say: Man who take woman into house on side of hill - not on level.

  13. #13
    The registry idea has been done before, and it's not a bad one. Of course, how does and idependent open a registry and a forum on her site, what to do to make it interesting? and thre is still no proof that the person isn't a psycho, so we still have to get his name to the least. There is obviously more users with an agency.
    "It's a God-given talent. It was meant to be shared with the public." (Moustache, Irma La Douce, 1963)

    www.lillyofmontreal.com

  14. #14

    Security issues…

    Unfortunately, I’m also afraid there are no fail-proof solutions.

    SPs should never respond to blocked number telephone calls, always ask for a phone number (that can be traced…this fact being known by the client is an effective deterrent) and references from known providers. But even that may not be sufficient as some have nevertheless been videotaped, robbed or assaulted by screened clients or even repeat clients. Short of bringing a bodyguard with you, like did the now-retired Mystique I’ve met a few times (see details of her unusual approach in her review thread), I can’t see what more can be done on a preventive basis. And when something goes wrong, filing complaints with law enforcement authorities is the only way to prevent this “schmock” to do it again to others.

    From a client’s perspective, most would probably not go for a SP requiring a bodyguard to wait in the bathroom during your meeting like Mystique did (after being assaulted, she told me). Many clients are probably not comfortable with the idea of providing contact coordinates, and the potential consequences if the SP happens to be herself a “schmock” (blackmail in particular), but I’m afraid it’s the price to pay to see some security-cautious SPs.

    Clients who object to these requirements can always call the vast majority of agencies who have no other security measure than to ask their SPs to call the driver once they are in the room with the client to say that everything is fine. Knowing the driver leave afterward to pickup other SPs, this really does very little to obliviate the “schmock” factor.

    Lion Heart

  15. #15

    Possibilities?

    The registry idea has been done before, and it's not a bad one. Of course, how does and idependent open a registry and a forum on her site, what to do to make it interesting?
    In the case of independents, yes, there are some logistical problems. But I have noticed lately that some independents are either banding together on websites or affiliating with an agency but keeping their rates. It might be possible for independents to open a common registry that all share, and on their websites indicate discounts or other bonuses for clients who are registered. In this way the jerks who would be blacklisted by one would be automatically blacklisted by all. The registry might also be available to Stella but one would have to consider privacy issues and the law there. Though I do believe that just to be registered in a data base breaks no laws. A very small monthly fee for the upkeep of the registry online would be all that would be needed. It would not be foolproof but it's a start. I would venture to bet that a lot of guys would behave themselves if they risked losing their precious discounts. Most guys can do the math. One might even consider sharing a list of flagged clients with agencies as well. Kinda cuts down a lot of alternatives for the nut cases.
    and thre is still no proof that the person isn't a psycho, so we still have to get his name to the least.
    There is no sure protection from a determined psycho and definitely for girls who would accept clients who don't register but if he chose to register to get the bonuses he would only have to offend once and he could kiss all the girls subscribing only to the registry goodbye. As for his name, he would have to give it as a condition of registering. It would be ideal if Stella ran the registry and all girls subscribing would have to sign a legal confidentiality agreement. You would have to further research that from a practical and legal standpoint. In the worst case scenario it could be kept very private and hidden in which case it would be among the girls only. Not perfect but it's a start.
    There is obviously more users with an agency.
    Well, as I said above, the idea of a central registry might help.

    Right now the hobby exists in a totally unregulated environment and short of legalizing it there are very few options for regulation. At least a registry tends to create an exclusive community of sorts. Lion Heart also has a few useful suggestions. Beyond that I just don't know how you would exclude the bad apples. Now, all that having been said, the subject will just keep coming up time after time – we will all bitch about it and then it will be forgotten until next time. Sad but true.
    Last edited by Regular Guy; 11-16-2008 at 03:17 PM.
    Confucius say: Man who take woman into house on side of hill - not on level.

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