Destruction of Alberta's wildnerness

mass1965 · Jun 26, 2010

When are people going to wake up to the deliberate, continuing, poisoning (heavy metals) and wilderness destruction going on in Alberta. This disaster is the result of the mining of the oil sands there. This will not end until enough people speak up to stop it.
While the oil spill in the gulf will end and natural forces. bacteria, etc will consume the oil easily in a few years to tens of years. The mining of the oil sands will damage the environment from heavy metal contamination and turning over of the land. Bacteria will not help here. Recovery is likely to take thousands, and maybe much more than that, of years making the damage for all practical purposes (human lifetimes) permanent.
This just a small warning of what is, will be happening:
"Syncrude guilty in 1,600 duck deaths in toxic pond"
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20100625/wl_canada_nm/canada_us_syncrude_ducks

mass1965 · Jun 26, 2010

Whats even more trajic is that this is just another example of a long line of exploitation of the Native Americans. Again promises are being made (i.e that the land will be returned to its original state) that can not and will not be kept. After all this is done there will not be a return to tradition living. In fact the land maybe made unlivable at all from the heavy metal polution.
I think enough crimes have been commitided against Native Americans and find this another reason to oppose the mining of the oil sands.

CS Martin · Jun 26, 2010

When the Oil Spill thread was deleted for reasons unknown, my last post there was on this tradgedy in Alberta. This is not just a tragedy for Native Americans, but our environment as a whole. Perhaps we should be discussing what each and everyone of us can do to limit our impact on the environmnet as a whole. I'm not advocating being a "flaming environmentalist", but take time to examine everything you do in life from taking a shower to how you conduct your business to see where just paying attention can help your footprint on the environment. Why not stop complaining and contribute a positive thread full of ideas big and small we can share with each other.

My first: Have you considered using Soap Nuts Laundry Detergent? It's made from an environmentally renewable source and is all natural. Amazon sells the stuff and it works quite well for everyday wash. I use vinegar instead of fabric softener. The combination is cheaper, better on your skin and quite effective. Also makes your cloths last longer.

Mod 8 · Jun 26, 2010

Hello everyone,

I would like to note that the Oil Spill thread was deleted by the thread starter, Octavian, not a moderator before someone accuses MERB's moderators of being on the oil companies' payroll.

M8

CS Martin said:
When the Oil Spill thread was deleted for reasons unknown,

cloudsurf · Jun 26, 2010

Mod 8 said:
Hello everyone,

before someone accuses MERB's moderators of being on the oil companies' payroll.

M8

Looks like its time to sell my Sin-crude shares

Kepler · Jun 26, 2010

The money from the Alberta oil sands is what's paying for Quebec's (and other provinces') expensive social programs.

Also, unless you want to drastically reduce your quality of life (few people are willing) we must find a _real_ alternative source of energy. Solar and wind are nice, but far far from enough. Only Hydro and Nuclear can really take up the slack. And Hydro power is almost all developed already in Canada.

JH Fan · Jun 26, 2010

Kepler said:
The money from the Alberta oil sands is what's paying for Quebec's (and other provinces') expensive social programs.

Also, unless you want to drastically reduce your quality of life (few people are willing) we must find a _real_ alternative source of energy. Solar and wind are nice, but far far from enough. Only Hydro and Nuclear can really take up the slack. And Hydro power is almost all developed already in Canada.

Ha ha ! that's a good try.
Guess you're forgetting that Quebec Hydro has been supporting provinces like Alberta for decades before they could produce anything else than wheat and beef.

Hydro is far from being all develloped. You should study a bit more on energy and geography.

I'm always amazed about Canadians who points toward our social systems but forget all about the stupid spending of the Feds all over.

We had a simple tax system before stupid Feds came up with GST.

How many scandals and stupid spendings do you need to wake up ?
Just look into TO right now and tell me it's very intelligent to pay 1billion for 3 days.

...Oh look ! a couple cop car were burned in TO.
What a bad image it is for Canada all over the world

Kepler · Jun 27, 2010

Our society faces many important decisions in the coming years. We need accurate facts to make wise decisions.

1- Equalization payments were put in the constitution in 1982. Since that time, Alberta has gotten $0 from anyone. Quebec has been receiving multiple billions every single year during those 28 years. (http://www.cirano.qc.ca/fin/quest_Perequation_Effets22.php )

2- Even under the pre-1982 "primitive" equalization formula, started in 1957, Ontario and BC were the "rich provinces". Quebec was already receiving a net payment back then! http://www.eqtff-pfft.ca/francais/EQTreasury/equal101-2.asp

3- Not that it matters, but Alberta's first commercial oil well was in 1901. http://www.geohelp.net/history.html Hydro-Quebec was created in 1962. Before that, the dams were private.

4- "Practically all hydroelectric-power sites in Canada that are reasonably close to load centres have been developed,..." http://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.com/index.cfm?PgNm=TCE&Params=a1ARTA0003932 There are still some possible sites up north, very far away, but they are hard to develop, expensive to develop, will flood huge areas if developed, and of course they're all on Indian land!

5- We might not like the GST, but it actually simplified the tax system.

6- The fact that there's some waste by the Feds doesn't change the fact that Quebec needs Alberta's oil money to fund it's social programs. No oil money = drastically reduced social programs.

7- I repeat, you might not like it, but if you want to maintain our current standard of living we need Alberta's oil sands money and nuclear power in North America in the future.

JH Fan · Jun 27, 2010

Kepler said:
Our society faces many important decisions in the coming years. We need accurate facts to make wise decisions.

1-Quebec didn't sign 1982. wake up !
2-Read a bit of history back in 1957 you'll understand why.
3-Yup it doesn't matter.
4-Not in Quebec.
5-Simplify ? you must be kidding ! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sales_taxes_in_Canada
Why did they come up with the HST then ?
6-Quebec needs the FEDS to get back to pre-wwII stats. Stop spending like crazy getting us back into deficit all over again.
Oil is paying more for 'social programs' FEDS have put on top of the ones already in Quebec.
7-What we need is to get away from this 'Canadian way of life' and start over and Nuc is prehistoric.

Yes Oil is paying for way too much which we can afford and that includes the car industry in Ontario.

I agree with you that we'll have to make decisions in the coming years. One of them is to re-open this unfinished business of a stupid constitution which doesn't apply to all and stop dividing people.

8- Canada's population is aging fast. We need massive immigration and this land is huge while the world is dying without water and food.

CS Martin · Jun 27, 2010

Mod 8 said:
Hello everyone,

I would like to note that the Oil Spill thread was deleted by the thread starter, Octavian, not a moderator before someone accuses MERB's moderators of being on the oil companies' payroll.

M8

Dear Mod 8, I want to say publicly that my comment was IN NO WAY directed or implied to be directed at the Moderators or Management. The starter of that thread deleted it for his own private reasons. He's allowed to do that under the rules here. That being said, this discussion seems to keep "spilling over" (pardon my pun) over into how we live our lives, who we depend upon, what we consume, and who is to blame. There's enough blame to go around for everyone, including but not limited to, conservative, liberal, moderate, independent, anarchists, communists, hobbiest, SP, those corrupt and those that believe they're not corrupt............did I leave anyone out? If so, forgive me.

Doing some reading recently, I come up with the following conclusions. Again, subject to my opinion. There is a new paradyne in the world called the G20, that the anarhists are upset about. Logic says the anarhists will not win because technology keeps shortening the distances and speeding up the world. Fossil Fuel is an ugly reality that is subject to the greed of man(genarically speaking). Greed is both for power & money which are virtually the same. The current economic problems are due to greed and gluttony, again basic problems of man. The war in Iraq was over power & oil (i.e. money), not freedom. If it were about freedom there are a lot of other places that need our help. The war in Afganistan is about power & money. Afganistan holds one of the largest deposits of Lithium in the known world. Lithium is and will be one of the most important resources in the post fossil fuel world. Solar, Tidal (incl. Hydro) & Wind Power seem to be the only sustainable sources out there, all of which will need Lithium to make them more viable. Nuclear & Naturual Gas seem to be good bridges at this point. Can man do it, yes. Assuming we don't wipe ourselves out in the process. Now, have a good day arguing over who gets what and who owes whom.

mass1965 · Jun 27, 2010

CS Martin said:
Dear Mod 8, I want to say publicly that my comment was IN NO WAY directed or implied to be directed at the Moderators or Management. The starter of that thread deleted it for his own private reasons. He's allowed to do that under the rules here. That being said, this discussion seems to keep "spilling over" (pardon my pun) over into how we live our lives, who we depend upon, what we consume, and who is to blame. There's enough blame to go around for everyone, including but not limited to, conservative, liberal, moderate, independent, anarchists, communists, hobbiest, SP, those corrupt and those that believe they're not corrupt............did I leave anyone out? If so, forgive me.

Doing some reading recently, I come up with the following conclusions. Again, subject to my opinion. There is a new paradyne in the world called the G20, that the anarhists are upset about. Logic says the anarhists will not win because technology keeps shortening the distances and speeding up the world. Fossil Fuel is an ugly reality that is subject to the greed of man(genarically speaking). Greed is both for power & money which are virtually the same. The current economic problems are due to greed and gluttony, again basic problems of man. The war in Iraq was over power & oil (i.e. money), not freedom. If it were about freedom there are a lot of other places that need our help. The war in Afganistan is about power & money. Afganistan holds one of the largest deposits of Lithium in the known world. Lithium is and will be one of the most important resources in the post fossil fuel world. Solar, Tidal (incl. Hydro) & Wind Power seem to be the only sustainable sources out there, all of which will need Lithium to make them more viable. Nuclear & Naturual Gas seem to be good bridges at this point. Can man do it, yes. Assuming we don't wipe ourselves out in the process. Now, have a good day arguing over who gets what and who owes whom.

Mod this is off topic. i.e. nothing to do with the oil sands issue. In addition even if it was on topic it is historicaly and factualy incorrect, and only a gross distortion of those in an attempt to be inflamatory. That and as I said off topic at that.

Kepler · Jun 27, 2010

1-Quebec not signing 1982 doesn't change the fact that it's gotten net payments from the Feds since then.
2- You keep telling me to do my homework, but I've provided facts with sources.
3- It matters only to prove that your claim that Hydro Quebec supported Alberta is false.
4- Yes. In Quebec. Otherwise, oh wise one, please give one counter example.
5- GST is simpler to administer than what we had before.
6- Maybe, but that doesn't change the fact the Quebec needs Alberta's oil money
7- Only a tiny minority of people want to give up the Canadian (North American) way of life. Good luck convincing everyone else to.
7b- http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/eng/debate_does_the_world_need_nuclear_energy.html It's our only hope to maintain quality of life and not heat this planet to death
8- Sure, immigration will be important. But lots of Canadians, especially French Canadians, will be concerned that massive immigration will dilute or endanger their culture.

JH Fan · Jun 27, 2010

Kepler said:
1-Quebec not signing 1982 doesn't change the fact that it's gotten net payments from the Feds since then.
2- You keep telling me to do my homework, but I've provided facts with sources.
3- It matters only to prove that your claim that Hydro Quebec supported Alberta is false.
4- Yes. In Quebec. Otherwise, oh wise one, please give one counter example.
5- GST is simpler to administer than what we had before.
6- Maybe, but that doesn't change the fact the Quebec needs Alberta's oil money
7- Only a tiny minority of people want to give up the Canadian (North American) way of life. Good luck convincing everyone else to.
7b- http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/eng/debate_does_the_world_need_nuclear_energy.html It's our only hope to maintain quality of life and not heat this planet to death
8- Sure, immigration will be important. But lots of Canadians, especially French Canadians, will be concerned that massive immigration will dilute or endanger their culture.

1-You forget all the money FEDS owe to Quebec.
2-You can come up with any facts. The fact remains that without Quebec, Canada wouldn't be what it is right now. Now it's the west turn for what Central Canada has put up to creat and build this country.
3-Hydro Electricity provided the energy to build the industries which provided to sustain other provinces which didn't have much industries. I'm joking about the wheat and meat basically to joke your 'Quebec' moove. Cuze their contribution has been crucial too. You just wanted to stir sh*t by using Quebec in your opening argument.

4-Please write this again. Wise one ? mmm ja tete qui enfle ! J'va m'prendre pour Protagoras si ca continu

5-In Quebec we had 1 provincial tax. Bingo now we have this stupid TVQ tax that goes on top of the same stupid GST tax which FEDS said they would get rid of and keep. Now put these 2 taxes on top of the taxes when filling your tank... what a joke !
6-As long as we stay this way I'll give you that. Quebec as much as Ontario, the Eastern provinces and Manitoba will still need Alberta's oil money.
Are you happy now ?
7-That's the real decision whe have to do. So unless people really start .... it doesn't mean anything to complain about Alberta's wilderness and blame Quebec for it.
8-As long as the FEDS will try to dilute Quebec's culture using immigration you are right we will all end-up looking like a state from the US.

Anyway I have to go Germany just scored a 2nd !!! YESSSSSSSSSSS !!!!

CS Martin · Jun 27, 2010

JH Fan said:
8-As long as the FEDS will try to dilute Quebec's culture using immigration you are right we will all end-up looking like a state from the US.

Tell you what, if you stop implying something negative about our culture, I won't mention a culture that allows nasty open trash on the streets of Montreal at least once a week when I'm visiting......How disgusting. This rarely happens in the mongrul area known as Orlando, Florida.

Kepler · Jun 27, 2010

1- What do the feds owe Quebec?

2- LOL. No one is disputing that Quebec has been and will always be an integral part of Canada, and that Canada needs Quebec. But I'm saying we've been receiving net payments from Ottawa non-stop for 50 years. I've cited credible sources. I assume you believe me since you're not answering this point.

3- I'm not stirring shit. Mass1965 said "let's kill the oil sands". I said: "Quebec can't afford it." That's a valid point. And yeah, neither can 8 of the other provinces, who ALSO need the money for THEIR social programs. I mention Quebec because I live here.

4- Thank you for admitting that hydro power is almost all developed.

5- You're confusing a bunch of points here.

6- Hey, we agree! Hallelujah!

8- LOL. Any immigration will dilute Quebec's culture. Or any place's culture. That's what immigration does. Anyways, culture is not static. Quebec culture from 2010 has nothing to do with Quebec culture from 1940. Thank God for that!

Techman · Jun 27, 2010

The Feds owe Quebec? Really? For what? Please provide some information to backup your ridiculous claim. Without transfer payments from the Feds, some 8 BILLION dollars a year, Quebec would be bankrupt. And I thought Quebec has control over it's own immigration, not the federal government.

Back to the topic, the oil sands developement is an environmental disaster. Unfortunately the world runs on oil and I doubt that anything can be done to stop what has been started there. Unless someone comes up with a more environmentally friendly way to extract the oil things wil continue as they are now. No federal party will step in to stop it as that would be political suicide in Alberta for them. It's a bad situation that i don't see any solution for at the moment. The only thing that could slow or stop it would be if the world price of oil were to drop, making oil sands extraction unprofitable.

JH Fan · Jun 27, 2010

CS Martin said:
Tell you what, if you stop implying something negative about our culture, I won't mention a culture that allows nasty open trash on the streets of Montreal at least once a week when I'm visiting......How disgusting. This rarely happens in the mongrul area known as Orlando, Florida.

no prob CS Martin... which culture is it you're talking about ?
You are right on bout trash in Mtrl streets. Used to be a lot cleaner when the FEDS didn't run the city.

Orlando is clean.

protagoras · Jun 27, 2010

Are they having problems with Alberta's wilderness? Oh no, don't tell me that Preston Manning is an endangered species!!!!!

JH Fan · Jun 27, 2010

Kepler said:
1- What do the feds owe Quebec?

And what do you call Fed income taxes ? what do you call GST ? What do you call EI ?
The so call money that Ottawa is giving back to Quebec is only part of what we have paid Ottawa to spend all over.

Even our dear Fed PM in Quebec is pissed. That should give you an idea about how the FEDS always try to screw up provinces and spend it all.
If you want facts... tell me why Ottawa doesn't even respect his own 2007 law on perequation ?

But hey go on believing !
It's ok to stir sh*t. I like it.

JH Fan · Jun 27, 2010

Techman said:
The Feds owe Quebec? Really? For what? Please provide some information to backup your ridiculous claim. Without transfer payments from the Feds, some 8 BILLION dollars a year, Quebec would be bankrupt. And I thought Quebec has control over it's own immigration, not the federal government.

I just answered Kepler. Do you really want me to go on ?
Immigration ? what do you make about Ottawa (FEDS) Temporary Foreign Worker Program ?
Here is a good exemple of Ottawa trying to look good abroad with what happened in Haiti but fail to move on. (I wonder why ?)
http://www.ledevoir.com/politique/quebec/281566/immigration-quebec-prend-le-relais-d-ottawa

As for your "back to the topic"... like you said no Feds will step in... they wanna keep their little power in Ottawa and spend some more as our dear Tony did.

Destruction of Alberta's wildnerness

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