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Thread: Gentlemen's giving their phone number to an escort who is working in an agency

  1. #1
    Adorable libertine
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    Gentlemen's giving their phone number to an escort who is working in an agency

    ... to be able to have the girl for probably less while skipping the portion of the agency,

    is something really common and happening all the time, since the world exist.

    ***

    Is there a real moral issue behind this?

    What do you think?

  2. #2
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    Shades of grey like everything else

    OK, in my case I don't ever remember giving MY number to escorts. It has happened on occasion where the girl would give me HERS. I have never asked for this either, it was always her initiative.

    Contact information is exchanged for a variety of reasons and not always to strictly do business and-or bypass the agency fees. Here are a few examples:

    • A girl and I started developing a friendship, quite apart from our meetings through the agency. We had our contact info so I could tell her I had booked her, and she would dress extra nice for me, etc. She also had access to event passes that she passed on to me, etc. She was not the only one who, while always dealing with the agency, liked keeping in social contact with me
    • A couple of girls gave me their number saying "don't use it now, but feel free to text me if-when I retire publicly. I still would see you privately afterwards"
    • In terms of fee, if a girl offered to see me without the agency involved, I always let her name her price. Some quoted lower, the same, or higher

    In terms of "is it ethical", again shades of grey. I remember this very pretty girl from Bodylicious who thrust her number at me during our first date. I figured she was doing this because business was slow or that agency was not treating her right. In other cases the girl is just plain greedy and wants to cut the agency out wherever possible.

    For the client, its' a dicey game: the agencies are the ones to bring new talent on the scene. They deserve the reward of dealing with the girls and the clientele. Especially for clients who like to see new girls often, dealing with girls behind the scenes is counter-productive.

    An agency owner has every right to be pissed off when a girl is supposed to be on shift for them and they find out she was doing a side deal with a client they introduced her to. Or if they find out the girl is handing her number out to everyone she thinks "nice" on the first date.

    The few "side deals" I have participated in over the years have yielded mixed results at best. I have had a lot more fun with escorts who "retired" but kept faithful clients.

    Now that experience has sunk in, my criteria for accepting to participate in a side deal:

    • The girl is not on shift that night with her agency
    • I have seen her at the agency a minimum of three times (I always book for 2hrs also)
    • Unless some disappointment happens, its' because I want to see her on a regular basis
    • The money will stay the same as if she was with the agency. I am not doing this for a discount, its' more about the relaxed atmosphere of not being rushed by the booker and driver. Many times the girl will stay longer, even if it only "socially"

    Remember, I do not advocate side deals, nor do I try to "make them happen" with the girls. I am just explaining what I do or would do if and when they are offered.

    Because they are offered.
    Une vie sans folie, c'est une vie sans goût / Life without craziness, is life without taste


  3. #3
    Excellent post. Thoughtful, detailed, well-expressed, and based on extensive experience. Thanks for putting it up.

    Here's a question. You list this requirement for doing a side deal:
    I have seen her at the agency a minimum of three times (I always book for 2hrs also)
    Is the three-times rule because you want to get to know the girl well before deciding, or is it because you want to be fair and give the agency its cut? Or is it both?

    Same kind of question about the 2 hrs rule. Is that 2hrs with the agency or 2hrs for the side deal?

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maria Divina View Post
    ... to be able to have the girl for probably less while skipping the portion of the agency,

    is something really common and happening all the time, since the world exist.

    ***

    Is there a real moral issue behind this?

    What do you think?
    Hello Maria,

    I think I've only directly given my number to one lady since I started, and I am not sure about that. Several ladies have given me their numbers, a couple of them did so when I did not ask, others decided not to. The number of ladies involved in all of this for me has been small, maybe around 5% of the ladies I've met, and it's always after the lady has said she would like to meet again. But I am sure there are many hobbyists who are much more aggressive than I with unsolicited requests.

    Is it morally wrong? It's a breach of an implied if not explicit business contract if she was booked with an agency. I've been involved in that twice and not since a long time. It's not the right thing to do, but it's inevitable when one is naturally indulging in a fantasy with hand-picked beautiful young women in a deeply intimate business relationship, and it cannot be stopped. That's the reason why I cannot both blame the owners like Jeff of Montreal Angels for being very angry, while I still don't see any justification for making threats to ruin people's lives over these breaches. It's a natural hazard due to the kind of service being offered and agency owners need to realize that and deal with that reality without threats, in the same way some of them have often been involved in luring girls from other agencies deviously in what is usually considered another natural risk in this business.

    But I doubt that there is any 3-times rule for most who want phone numbers. No doubt some clients just want a better chance to see a favorite more, and others make it a habit of double-dealing the agencies.

    I'd be more interested to hear what the agency owners have to say about the frequency of this problem...as far as they might know how often it's happened?

    Cheers,

    Merlot

  5. #5
    Fun n games til some1...
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    i like this question MD.
    this should be spun into a 10-part mini posting series called Escort Business Ethics 101.

    i propose the next subject should be:
    Standard Do's & Don'ts (and the "Oops we forgot to mention that") Agency Owners Tell The Girls.

    back on topic, is there a moral issue behind side deals? i'll answer your question with a question... is sex for cash moral/ethical?

  6. #6
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    Of course, I talked from my past experience because of the "thing's" going on presently.

    I never give my personnal number to someone when I was in agency, many years ago.

    I received a lots of little papers with phone number on it, and business cards. So, yes they are a lots of gentlemen who want to see the girls "outside the agency", that's not new.

    I had been told that I acted naively to not get back and take advantage of those "opportunities"... but in my thoughts, I was not an Indy at that time, and I did not really trust who wanted to meet me "outside", not because they were not nice and we did not have good chemistry, just it looks to me like a kind of cheating from them to the agency.

    I use to have other "regular" business in life, and if one of my employee had the idea to say: "Hey, I can go and do the job for less that my boss is asking" (and it happened), I fired them, of course! It is like using the reputation of someone else and taking advantage of all the advertisings made by his/her boss, and them put no really effort in that, and stealing the contract and the $.
    Last edited by Maria Divina; 10-18-2012 at 03:04 PM.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by evillethings View Post
    i like this question MD.
    Thank you Mister Evil!...



    back on topic, is there a moral issue behind side deals? i'll answer your question with a question... is sex for cash moral/ethical?
    So, if I understand you well, you are really thinking than sex for cash is immoral???



    There is nothing in the world who is more true that this kind of agreement!

    No fake promises, we are all knowing what's the deal.



    Back to your question, I am asking you a question to answer it:

    So, for you, because if someone is feeling that is not moral, you think it is ok to go freely do everything he will want without morality?

  8. #8
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but do not all agencies take the position that the girls are not "employees" but rather that the agency merely "facilitates" the girls' business by providing advertising, booking and logistical services? And are the girls bond by an exclusivity clause?

    If the girls are employees with salary, T4s, vacation pay, maternity leave and the like, then there may be an ethical issue. If the client who booked through the agency undertook not to circumvent the agency, then there is an ethical issue. But if the girls are all "independent" as the agencies claim for purposes of source deductions and labour standards, then unless an exclusivity contract was signed there is no issue. IMO

  9. #9
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    I remember very well the first time someone wanted to give me his number, around February-March 2007...

    He explained to me that he wanted me to join him and a group of his friends who will be accompanied with other girls, they will rent a fabulous condo or penthouse and that will be a very fun big adult party there... He gave me his number and told me straight that he did not want to go with the agency for that, because that was a multiple hours date , and wanted to save on the cut of the agency.

    So, that's where I learned that some guys are making it.

    And he started to laugh at me because of the way I was looking at him with my ??? in my eyes, and say: "Everybody does it! That's the first time someone is asking you, right?"

    ***

    I can tell that is not "everyone" who is doing it, but it happens. And no, it is not that common.
    It is almost common as the ones who are asking to be their real girlfriend... (that's my own experience, maybe other girls are having different ones...)
    Last edited by Maria Divina; 10-18-2012 at 03:41 PM.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnhenrygalt View Post
    If the client who booked through the agency undertook not to circumvent the agency, then there is an ethical issue.
    That is my principal point.

    But if the girls are all "independent" as the agencies claim for purposes of source deductions and labour standards, then unless an exclusivity contract was signed there is no issue. IMO
    If the girls were really independant, everything they had in an agency would be their own material (photos and ads) so, when they are leaving, they could have them and use them again. I am not really sure it is the case. Did you ever see a girl having all her previous pics taken in another agency follow her when she is changing or becoming Indy?

    And, I had just a little though: If an agency's girl was really independent, she just had to give her name to all the agencies who are making advance booking, and the first who book her, will have its cut.

    It is just not working that way.
    Last edited by Maria Divina; 10-18-2012 at 04:02 PM.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Maria Divina View Post
    I use to have other "regular" business in life, and if one of my employee had the idea to say: "Hey, I can go and do the job for less that my boss is asking" (and it happened), I fired them, of course! It is like using the reputation of someone else and taking advantage of all the advertisings made by his/her boss, and them put no really effort in that, and stealing the contract and the $.
    That's the way it works in the real world, the bread and butter of lawyers: copyright issues, reputation issues, market protection, contract's validity. You could fire him. You could call back your clients in you thought he would try to steel them from you. You could sue him if you though he was using dishonest business practices.

    But there is one thing you would not do: threaten your clients if they decided to use his services instead of yours unless you had a exclusivity contract with those clients. They are free to buy services from whoever they want.

    Quote Originally Posted by johnhenrygalt View Post
    If the girls are employees with salary, T4s, vacation pay, maternity leave and the like, then there may be an ethical issue. If the client who booked through the agency undertook not to circumvent the agency, then there is an ethical issue. But if the girls are all "independent" as the agencies claim for purposes of source deductions and labour standards, then unless an exclusivity contract was signed there is no issue. IMO
    There would be an ethical issue in the first case only if she breached employment contract agreed with the employer not to meet clients of that employer off the clock. Otherwise, what she does off her work time period is her business.

    On the second case, there is often, in fact, a very clear oral exclusivity contract, at least for clients she meets through the agency.

  12. #12
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    I have not done it, but if I had done it, it would be as insurance against a newer girl disappearing and never being heard from again, not to beat the agency out of its fee. I have been burned on the former enough times to consider it.

    About 4 times that I can remember, I saw highly desirable escorts who disappeared from the business shortly thereafter. The first was Jessy of IN/Melissa of Platinum in 2005, then Jennyfer of XXXtase in 2007, Jasmine #1 of Eleganza in 2007 and Brittany of XXXtase in 2010.

    I most regret not getting Brittany's number because from what she told me it was entirely predictable she was going to leave the agency and did shortly after I saw her. She was priced at the then VIP rate of $200 and told me she thought she should be at $250 an hour but Martin disagreed. I basically told her Martin knows the business and knows pricing, but privately I believed this hottie was probably worth more than what she was being priced at. Just my opinion and I am not saying Martin knows shit, because he does know a lot about the biz.

    I should have guessed she would quit, should have given her $100 extra (or $500 total for the 2 hours) on condition of getting her number. I regret not having done it big time. I believe she left Montreal and went back to Ottawa but I would have seen her every trip, if she had stayed, she was that hot. She did tell me she worked at Pigales (strip club in or near Ottawa), but I never went up there to look for her. She is probably gone now.
    Last edited by EagerBeaver; 10-18-2012 at 05:11 PM.

  13. #13
    Hello Maria,

    I can confirm for you that a number of girls who work for agencies own their own photographs and take them with them when they switch agency. We have had situations in the past when SPs have contacted us about an agency using pictures after she has moved to another agency. We have also had cases in the past of agencies posting images provided by a girl that turn out to be completely fake leading to problematic situations and bait and switch accusations. Not all agencies go to the trouble to take their own pictures for their advertising.

    M8

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by gugu View Post
    That's the way it works in the real world...
    So, you are simply admitting that escorting is not a "real" work then?



    Last edited by Maria Divina; 10-18-2012 at 06:02 PM.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mod 8 View Post
    Hello Maria,

    I can confirm for you that a number of girls who work for agencies own their own photographs...........
    Not all agencies go to the trouble to take their own pictures for their advertising.

    M8
    Thank you to let me know.

    So, those agencies are just booking and "delivering" the girls?

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