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Confederate flag banning.

Sol Tee Nutz

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Apr 29, 2012
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Look behind you.
I have been following this a bit since they tried to ban the sale of confederate flag souvenirs at the Calgary stampede this year plus heard that the gut who owns the dukes of hazard car is also removing the flag.... WTF, why is it all the sudden taboo to have the flag when for decades there was no problem? Now they want the Washington Redskins symbol removed...
Things are just getting too stupid with the politically correct shit that is going on.
Just my opinion..
 
May 28, 2012
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Amazon is selective in who they tolerate and who they don't

Here's an interesting point of view:

http://i591.photobucket.com/albums/ss356/Nitramsc_bucket/Der-Fuehrer-48-640x480.jpg

Online retail giant Amazon’s Monday decision to ban the sale of merchandise depicting the Confederate flag has many Americans scratching their heads, as a quick review of Amazon’s site reveals the company still sells Nazi flags.

For just $7.35, Amazon shoppers can pick up this Nazi SS flag, depicting the symbol of Adolf Hitler’s “Schutzstaffel” who helped carry out Germany’s annihilation of 6,000,000 Jews during the Holocaust:

http://i591.photobucket.com/albums/ss356/Nitramsc_bucket/amazon-nazi-flag2-1024x416.jpg

Amazon also offers this swastika-bearing 3’x5’ flag, which can be found under the listing “Nazi SS flag, 3rd Reich Hitler,” now available for $19.47.

Amazon has yet to announce if and when it plans on banning these and several other Nazi-related items depicting symbols associated with the slaughter of 6,000,000 Jews.

Political Correctness, Intolerance and Belly Aching......Does it end with the defacto abolishment of the 1st Amendment?

P.S. Glad to know that the Moderators haven't really changed, but it did prove a theory of mine regarding Merlot...LOL
 

Halloween Mike

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Never understood why American are still attached to this flag. They lost the war, they where for slavery... There is nothing glorious in that flag. Now selling Nazi flags is also fucked up...
 

Kasey Jones

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The prevailing ideas entertained by [Thomas Jefferson] and most of the leading statesmen at the time of the formation of the old constitution, were that the enslavement of the African was in violation of the laws of nature; that it was wrong in principle, socially, morally, and politically ... Those ideas, however, were fundamentally wrong. They rested upon the assumption of the equality of races. This was an error. It was a sandy foundation, and the government built upon it fell when the "storm came and the wind blew."

Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite idea; its foundations are laid, its corner-stone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery subordination to the superior race is his natural and normal condition. This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth.

Alexander Stephens
March 21, 1861



How is this a 1st amendment issue? I rather believe that it is a great example of free market principles at work...

https://xkcd.com/1357/
 

Merlot

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Gentlemen,

Never understood why American are still attached to this flag. They lost the war, they where for slavery... There is nothing glorious in that flag. Now selling Nazi flags is also fucked up...

The Rebellion was about far more than slavery. Slavery tends to cast the biggest shadow over the whole Antebellum era and the war, and that's what people think about automatically when anyone mentions the American Civil War. What it was really about was something that lingers to this day. Hmmm, I started to write a history lesson again...but I will spare everyone. Whatever one argues about the Southern Cross flag of the Confederacy there's one incontrovertible fact. It represents REBELLION! That alone makes it a disgrace to fly over government institutions in my view. It should be banned permanently from all places representing the government of the people on any level for that reason...and by the way I was born in the South.

The fact that the KKK and other racists have put their permanent stain on it makes it all the more of a malignant symbol. I'm not so concerned that this flag is used regarding Free Speech, but it represents TREASON and Racism and it should be banned from all government representation at any level.

:thumb:

Merlot
 

Sol Tee Nutz

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Apr 29, 2012
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Look behind you.
Merlot I can agree the banning on government buildings but to try and have confederate sales stopped at the Calgary stampede is just wrong. Taking the confederate flag off the General Lee ( Dukes of Hazard car ) is plain stupid, the car value will drop 10 fold. Why was all this left alone until recently? Someone just thought " Hey, I do not like this ". Anyways, as long as I can continue to wear my lederhosen on the beach all is good.
 

Siocnarf

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Jul 30, 2011
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The Rebellion was about far more than slavery. Slavery tends to cast the biggest shadow over the whole Antebellum era and the war, and that's what people think about automatically when anyone mentions the American Civil War...

Some years ago, I read a book called ''Confederates in the Attic'' about how the civil war is still very alive for the peole down south. I highly recommand it.

I'll go as far as to say that the war had little to do about freeing the slaves. Even if the South had won the war they would have had to abolish slavery to be recognized as a nation by the big guys like England and France. There was a lot of racisms on both sides and half a million white people simply do not kill each other for the good of black people.

That flag is not the flag of the Confederate States, but the battle flag of the army. General Lee who was the leader of the South army was himself opposed to slavery and he is the person most closely associated with the flag. He said it had been an error not to free the slaves before the war, because it prevented them from getting military support from other countries.

I guess that flag is a bit like the Soviet flag. For different people it represents completely different views that can be either noble or evil. But I believe after many generation any symbol loses it's real meaning and becomes just a toy for anyone who uses it. I agree with STN; it may not have it's place on a government building, but it should not be banned for private use.
 

Halloween Mike

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And your cccp sweater?

They won WW2, they stoped the nazis. How can you even compare those 2 flags?

---------------------------------------------------

Merlot, i will admit my knowledge of the American Civil War is limited, i would need to read more on this, but feel free to explain everything you want, im all curious about history.
 

Merlot

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Gentlemen,

Merlot, i will admit my knowledge of the American Civil War is limited, i would need to read more on this, but feel free to explain everything you want, im all curious about history.

It may be better not to encourage me. I've read scads and scads of information and books on WWII and the American Civil War. I'm just trying to keep it to simple responses here. Suffice it to say I created my own extra credit research project with the professor's guidance and approval for extra credit I didn't need just to learn another dimension about the Antebellum period and all the issues. It was quite fascinating.

...to try and have confederate sales stopped at the Calgary stampede is just wrong.

Wrong if they are doing it to avoid losing sales. Right if it's about what they want to avoid representing. If a company/business doesn't want to be involved in promoting certain images it's their right to protect their brand if they believe it's necessary.

Why was all this left alone until recently? Someone just thought "...

Because after the last bitter debate the right side found it did not have enough support. Besides that I think it had become somewhat of a faded lingering anachronism the majority may have felt was more harmless than harmful. The shooting changed all of that.

Anyways, as long as I can continue to wear my lederhosen on the beach all is good.

:lol: Thanks for the laugh. Ich liebe meine Lederhose. Nur echte Männer tragen es. (Only real men wear it). You know if I had seen the first sentence before looking it up I would have understood it. :thumb:

Do you know what part of Germany your ancestors came from? For me it's Hessen and Wurttemberg. Maybe I'm 1/8 German.

Gute Nacht, (knew this one too)

Merlot
 

Halloween Mike

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HM

How many millions of his own citizens do you think Stalin was responsible for killing? Think you might find it was on the same scale as hitler. And no I am not justifying the confederate flag.

This is up for debate and another subject completely. First of all the soviet union is more than Stalin himself, and no matter your point of view on the guy, you got to give props to the Red Army who fough and died during WW2, without them this war would had been very different, and with England on the verge of being defeated (ill give them props for fighting alone for that long tough) who knows if USA could had fough both the Nazis and the Japanese at the same time. Anyway the CCCP flag over he Reishtag in Berlin will always be one of the greatest moments in history, it meant the end of the Third Reich and nazi germany. And for that, i wear it proudly.
 

CaptRenault

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The state of South Carolina did the right thing by removing the Confederate battle flag from a flagpole on the grounds of the South Carolina State House. Why? Because the flag had been flown there only since the late 1940s, when it was raised as a symbol of defiance against the emerging civil rights movement.

Before that time, the Confederate battle flag was not a very significant symbol of racism or resistance to the guarantee of equal rights to black people. It was just a part of the military history of the Civil War. If the Confederate battle flag had already been the state flag of South Carolina or some other state before the Civil War, then its symbolism might be different.

But because it was officially adopted by the state of South Carolina as a symbol of a desire by whites to keep blacks a second class citizens, it became a symbol of racism. The fact that some southerners and others (like people attending the Calgary Stampede) do not intend to send a message of racism by displaying it doesn't matter. Over the past several decades, it became a symbol too closely related with racism and thus no government in the United States should display it on government property or incorporate its design into an official state flag (as the state of Mississippi still does).

The question of the Confederate battle flag is somewhat comparable to the symbol of the swastika. Before its adoption by the Nazis, the swastika was a common symbol used by Buddhists and Hindus throughout Asia (it can still be seen on some temples in Asia). The swastika had no inherently evil meaning before the Nazis used it during their reign. But once the Nazis adopted it, it came to symbolize the many evil aspects of the Nazi regime. At least in the West, we recognize that any person or group who displays a Nazi symbol or flag wants to communicate an evil message.

Nevertheless, no government in the United States has banned the display of the Confederate battle flag or for that matter, the Nazi swastika. The Supreme Court (even the current relatively liberal Court) would probably rule that the First Amendment prohibits a government from banning the private display of such symbols (though some governments in Europe do ban the private display of the swastika). You want to hang a Confederate battle flag from your front porch in the United States, go ahead.

So it is not true that any government has banned the display of the Confederate battle flag. On the other hand, private organizations have decided to discourage or ban its use at events they organize. It is their right to do so and probably reflects an economic concern about the symbolism of the flag as much as a moral concern. Whatever the reason, it's probably a good thing.

I wonder what happens next though. What about all the monuments to Confederate soldiers and war heroes that dot the center of towns and cities in the south? What about the statues of nine Confederate generals and statesmen who are represented among the 100 men (including Jefferson Davis and Robert E. Lee) whose statues stand in the National Statuary Hall in the United States Capitol? Many progressives probably believe that all these statues and monuments must be the next things to go.

However, I don't think so. Once you start down the road of removing any and all symbols that might offend anyone in any fashion, there is no end to it. That kind of ritual purging of offending symbols is what totalitarian movements and societies are good at. I think a monument to Johnny Reb standing in the middle of a small town is a useful reminder of history. A lot of the people who would like to see such a monument torn down don't even know the basic facts of their own history such as when and why the Civil War was fought (and yes, the main cause of the war was the issue of slavery and whether it would be allowed in new parts of the U.S.), who were the adversaries and what were the outcome and the consequences of the war. The history of the United States (or any country for that matter) is a messy story and you cannnot purge the unsavory aspects of a country's history by tearing down statues.

So move the Confederate battle flags from government property to museums where they belong but let the statues of Johnny Reb stand. Because he might inspire people to learn about the history, both good and bad, of the place and the country where they live and that's a good thing.
 

minutemenX

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And that is different than someone displaying the confederate battle flag how?

The history is written by victorious. Civil wars are the worst wars possible. Scars take centuries to heal. People, right or wrong died under this flag, show respect. A lot of people in the south can trace their linage to soldiers killed under this flag. They were not bad people. A lot of them were actually more idealistic than their brothers from the north. There is an obvious huge difference between this flag and the Nazi Germany symbols and it is a shame that they started to be treated similarly.
 

Merlot

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Gentlemen,

This is up for debate and another subject completely. First of all the soviet union is more than Stalin himself, and no matter your point of view on the guy, you got to give props to the Red Army who fough and died during WW2, without them this war would had been very different, and with England on the verge of being defeated (ill give them props for fighting alone for that long tough) who knows if USA could had fough both the Nazis and the Japanese at the same time. Anyway the CCCP flag over he Reishtag in Berlin will always be one of the greatest moments in history, it meant the end of the Third Reich and nazi germany. And for that, i wear it proudly.

Okay, a few points about the Russian Army:

1. Stalin in all his wisdom purged/murdered 90% of his top command generals before the war.

2. The army did so badly in 1941 that when Stalin's staff came to see him at one time he thought they were going to arrest him (Stalin) and have him shot. And BTW...in 1940 the Soviet army pretty much got it's ass kicked by Finland though they had about 1/6 to 1/8 the men to fight as the Russians did.

3. The Soviet army lost so many men and equipment in 1941 it had to practically be rebuilt and rely heavily on American arms and equipment for some time.

4. The Russians won at Stalingrad because Hitler (rivaling Stalin for military stupidity) forced the German army into a limited space while sending most of his main offensive forces (most of the armor) south to capture the Caucasus oil fields, which they failed to do. Then Hitler ORDERED General Paulus to stay and fight it out there "to the last man". Breaking out before it was too late was forbidden, meaning Hitler sacrificed them to the Russians.

5. Did you see the start of the movie "Enemy at the Gates" (Stalingrad) where the Russian troops charge the well prepared German troops and get slaughtered, then they try to retreat and get shot by their own NKVD compatriots? All TRUE! The average Russian soldier was forced to choose between facing the Germans or facing Stalin's merciless murdering NKVD enforcers. Terrorism not inspiration.

6. The Russian rebound at Kursk in the summer of 1943 was partly due to Hitler's insistence on going against his generals advice. In fact Hitler forced the German army to fight a static war, the opposite of what it was designed for, forcing them to defend cities to the death regardless of any military conditions or sense from then on handing the Red Army almost every tactical advantage possible.

7. Eisenhower ordered the Allies to stay away from Berlin when it was close enough to get there first, actually stopping the advance in places until the Russians caught up.

8. Stalin forced two Russian army groups into a messy and confused competition over Berlin that led to many thousands of fellow "comrades" being killed and wounded by each other.

9. The taking of the Reichstag on May 2, 1945 led to a deluge of Russian revenge atrocities, which includes a very well-backed estimate of around 2.000.000 women being raped REPEATEDLY, "women" being a loose term for anyone from quite young girls to much older women all over Germany.

https://nseuropa.wordpress.com/2013/07/13/the-wave-of-suicides-in-the-reich-at-the-end-of-wwii/

Many women committed suicide in anticipation of being raped by Red Army soldiers or afterwards. Numbers vary considerably and are unreliable because many women did not report these sexual attacks and many women were raped repeatedly. Some historians suggest that Soviet soldiers raped up to 1.9 million German women at the end of the war. In Berlin alone, Red Army soldiers raped between 20,000 and 100,000 German women. Probably more than 10,000 Berlin women died in the aftermath of being raped, often by suicide.

Such is the result of raising the Red Flag over the Reichstag.

Just facts,

Merlot

PS

Yes I know all about American bombing atrocities like Dresden.
 

minutemenX

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Well, to take credit from Russians in defeating Nazi Germany is not right Merlot. Look at after and during the war American and British newspapers prizing Russians for their major contribution. So they were naïve and you have now more “balanced” view? Because Russians suffered double from their often inept communist leadership does not diminish their victory. And speaking of some atrocities that soviet troops committed in Germany one can ask how you can keep people from retribution after horrible, horrible things Germans did to civil population on the eastern front. The rape is really “minor crime” in comparison. They were completely different animals in defeated France and in Ukraine as you know.
 

Merlot

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Whew,

Well, to take credit from Russians in defeating Nazi Germany is not right Merlot. Look at after and during the war American and British newspapers prizing Russians for their major contribution. So they were naïve and you have now more “balanced” view?

What I wrote is simply factual, and it's not disputable. As for American and British newspapers immediately after the war, you don't think the Americans and British were trying to schmooze the Russians and put the best light possible on Stalin for public consumption back home since they were forced by a common enemy to fight together, Stalin who gave up on his own son even though the Germans offered a trade.

And speaking of some atrocities that soviet troops committed in Germany one can ask how you can keep people from retribution after horrible, horrible things Germans did to civil population on the eastern front.

We all know what the Germans and Nazi zealots did (no not the same thing). If you want to change the subject that's your prerogative. However, to justify mass nation wide pillaging, rape, and slaughter because of the same is a barbaric sort of justification...IMO.

The rape is really “minor crime” in comparison. They were completely different animals in defeated France and in Ukraine as you know.

You've got to be kidding me about rape. Tens of thousands committed suicide because of or in fear of...and what do you think they were doing to the men who tried to defend or hide the women. Just because I didn't mention everything the Russians did doesn't mean anyone should ignore worse or acts like it didn't happen.

For another fact, Stalin is estimated to have murdered (starving or shooting) 10 to 20 million of his own people before the war. I've met some guys from the Ukraine, Belarus, and Russia who told me the same thing separately face to face they believe Stalin killed up to 50 million of his own during his rule. All I did was ask where they were from because of their accents, and they told me the stories and histories written in the own countries.

As for the Ukraine, firm estimates are that a minimum of 3,000,00 were starved to death or outright killed by Stalin's NKVD in the late 30s. Other estimates are 3 to 4 times higher.

A lot of people in the south can trace their linage to soldiers killed under this flag. They were not bad people.

True, but any way you cut it it was treason.

A lot of them were actually more idealistic than their brothers from the north.

And a lot of people in the North were more idealistic than many in the South. In fact, maybe soldiers in the North had to be more idealistic because they were defending ideas when invasions were rare, and those in the South where the great majority of battles were fought were compelled to defend their homes.

I wonder what happens next though. What about all the monuments to Confederate soldiers and war heroes that dot the center of towns and cities in the south? What about the statues of nine Confederate generals and statesmen who are represented among the 100 men (including Jefferson Davis and Robert E. Lee) whose statues stand in the National Statuary Hall in the United States Capitol? Many progressives probably believe that all these statues and monuments must be the next things to go.

Your whole post is very, very clear thinking. My compliments. I don't think most people if many at all will ever look at the common soldier or their commanders in the Confederate army as anything other than men who followed what they believed in and acted honorably in most cases with some exceptions. Yes, it's not about banning the Southern Cross wholesale it's about removing it from places that represent the various levels of governments and how that government is supposed to represent the rights of the people and insure those rights.

Very good Captain,

Merlot
 

minutemenX

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Merlot, any serious history scholar does not dispute the defining Russian role in defeating Nazi Germany. The numbers (number of losses, troops fought etc. etc) simply stay on their own. At the same time all undisputed communist atrocities that really happened were amplified after the war both by numbers and some facts. It is all the result of the cold war mentality and propaganda war that was waged (and at some form still goes) on both sides of the divide. One has to free himself from “political” expediency when striving for a scientific approach. I know what I am talking about. I lived on the other side of the divide for a long time. I think I have a somewhat more balanced understanding of WWII as a result.
 

Merlot

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Gentlemen,

Merlot, any serious history scholar does not dispute the defining Russian role in defeating Nazi Germany.

I have never disputed to huge role played by the Russian forces. However, I object to anything that sounds like the manner in which that role was carried out was some sort of righteous crusade of good (Soviet Union) versus evil (Nazi Germany). It's also argumentative to say they were the most critical element. American money and supplies kept them afloat for the critical moment between the prospect of abject failure and future success. Many would say the survival of Britain for the Americans to use as a launching base for the Western Allies was more critical. Even Stalin himself frequently pleaded with the Western Allies to launch a "Second Front" to divert German forces from the Russian Front.

Now let's not forget one little detail. In 1939 there was an inside conspiracy of German political leaders and generals to depose Hitler. When Stalin agreed to the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact he gave Hitler carte blanche to take Poland and start World War II in Europe, thus giving Hitler great political prestige and power, the conspiracy against him fell apart. That means every drop of blood spilled in Europe and Africa is equally on Hitler's and Stalin's hands. So let's not paint this like the Russians were heroes of any sort. They went into this war to do the same thing Hitler wanted to do, take over as much as possible. The Russian mistake was to be betrayed by Hitler before they could betray him. If not for that there would have not been much difference at all.

Overall I think the fairest assessment is the Western Allies and the Soviets needed each other just as much.

truly,

Merlot
 

minutemenX

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Nazis slaughtered 6 million Jews factory- style based on their ethnicity only. Yes, Stalin’s regime did many bad things but it is some sort of a moral travesty equalizing Soviets with Nazis IMHO.
 

minutemenX

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Gentlemen,

Now let's not forget one little detail. In 1939 there was a conspiracy to depose Hitler. When Stalin agreed to the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact giving the Hitler carte blanche to take Poland and start World War II in Europe, thus giving Hitler great political prestige and power

Merlot

Hitler got carte blanche much earlier in Munich. At that time Stalin proposed sending Russian troops to Czechoslovakia. Stalin considered Munich as an attempt to turn Hitler’s war machine against Russia. Hitler played on British hate for communist Russia to get Munich deal.
 
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