1812 The Ignored War

[Turbodick]

You'd think that with the 200th anniversary upon us there would be some sort of fanfare of the War of 1812. After all, this war was a shining moment in the country that would become Canada's often dull history. Could it be because it is politically incorrect to bring up a conflict that the U.S. lost?

I think similar to the downgraded celebrations of the battle of the Plains of Abraham in Quebec City where it was poltically sensitive to remind Quebecers of the way the British kicked some french derierre, this important event is not getting the attention it deserves. No wonder Canadian history is boring.

 

[Siocnarf]

Could it be because it is politically incorrect to bring up a conflict that the U.S. lost?

If I remember correctly, both sides claim that they won that war. Maybe that's just too embarassing to commemorate.

Americans also tried to invade Quebec in 1775 and failed. And now they have peacefuly invaded with Walmart and McDonalds.:smile:

 

[TheDon]

Politics, it's all about politics!

 

[Turbodick]

If I remember correctly, both sides claim that they won that war. Maybe that's just too embarassing to commemorate.

Siocharf you must be old! It just seems too important to sweep under the carpet.

Oh well, time to turn on the tv news and watch the latest viral video about some dog licking its ass. Now that's important.

 

[hungry101]

Americans also tried to invade Quebec in 1775 and failed. And now they have peacefuly invaded with Walmart and McDonalds.:smile:

Yes it was Benadict Arnold who was wounded at the gates of Quebec City...It was a two pronged attack upon Quebec. One wing attacked through NY into Montreal and the other led by Arnold attacked through Maine.
I beliieve that the seaway thawed a little early allowing the english to releive Quebec.

Read Benadict Arnold's Navy...I loved it. Turbo if you could recommend a book written to commemorate the 200th i would be happy to read it in 2012. Yes this is more exciting then watching the same story over an over on the news.

 

[Siocnarf]

It just seems too important to sweep under the carpet.

It’s just that nothing important really changed with that war. Both sides occupied territories, but they were all restorted at the end. Its part of our history, but nobody is going to make a festival about it: That war where our brave ancestors gave their lives to valiantly restore the statu quo of trade interests. It just does not sound that good.

 

[Merlot]

It’s just that nothing important really changed with that war. Both sides occupied territories, but they were all restorted at the end. Its part of our history, but nobody is going to make a festival about it: That war where our brave ancestors gave their lives to valiantly restore the statu quo of trade interests. It just does not sound that good.

Hello all,

Siocnarf, you are right on.

Turbo, I've never read a Canadian history school book, but wherever you got this conclusion you need research. Basically the war was a draw where both sides agreed to recognize previously agreed boundaries and rights. However, the treaty did get the remaining British out of American territory below the line of the Great Lakes and north of the Ohio River giving the U.S. undisputed permanent control of 10,000,000 acres, including British claims in now American land on the Pacific coast. In short the old agreements of the previous treaty were verified.

However, had British General Pakenham and his army won at New Orleans even after the Treaty of Ghent was signed, it's certain the British would have demanded new terms since the city was a key that would have blocked the U.S. giving the British a large advantage in vital Mississippi trade traffic. Hence the American perception of victory in the war.

Cheers,

Merlot

 

[rumpleforeskiin]

The way I was taught in school (in the US of A), I wasn't even aware that Canada was involved. My sense of the War of 1812 is that the US kicked some serious British butt.

 

[Siocnarf]

I wasn't even aware that Canada was involved.

Canada was still part of the British empire at the time. And since they were busy with Napoleon they said "why don't you be a good Canada and take care of those Americans. There's a good boy". (I'm simplifying a bit again).

There's not much achievement that the people now can relate to. No tyrants overthrown, no jeweled thrones thread upon by sandaled feet, etc.

 

[Siocnarf]

General Pakenham

General Pacman??

 

[hungry101]

The way I was taught in school (in the US of A), I wasn't even aware that Canada was involved. My sense of the War of 1812 is that the US kicked some serious British butt.

The British burned Washington DC to the ground. every building but the US Marine Barracks. I believe that the tiny US Navy in their infancy, had some tremendous successes against the vaunted Britsh Navy that was virtualy unchalenged on the high seas for several decades. The USN Constitution won fame in these battles and was deemed Old Ironsides.

 

[rumpleforeskiin]

It was an Anglo-American war; though the "butt-kicking" (actually killing and pillaging) was more or less evenly divided.

Not according to Johnny Horton. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LsRK3DNoa_Q

 

[Siocnarf]

Not according to Johnny Horton. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LsRK3DNoa_Q

OK that's the second old black and white music video you posted in a row. I'll raise you one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sq3YD7fNZTI

It's NOT off-topic. I'm sure we could all go back to school for a refresher class.

 

[hungry101]

I grew up in Maine, in the area where Benadict Arnold traveled on his way to Quebec. The emphasis was on his being a traitor and how he and his men attempted to use boats made of green wood to go up river (the Kennebec) and that the mission was a failure. I don't really know how accurate that is, but that is what were taught in grade school.

I read this book by James Nelson a few years ago entitled Benadict Arnold's Navy. If I remember correctly, the force led by Arnold almost starved in the Maine wilderness. They were eating their own leather. They finally made it to QC and laid seige to the citadel there. Meanwhile the other wing of Americans captured Montreal and moved to link up with Arnold. Arnold reoutfitted his men in QC and he paid for it out of his own pocket. It is all an incredible story. The seige was broken by British reinforcements from across the pond. With the British on their tails the americans had to get out of Canada. They escaped through Montreal. There is no record of any meetings with French-Canadian SP's. The Americans then escaped down through the chain of lakes and rivers down to lake Champlain where Arnold built a Navy to challenge the British on Lake Champlain. After the defeat on Lake Champlain, Arnold and Putnum retreated south with the British chasing. The British supply lines were being stretched to their breaking point and Arnold sensed this. For weeks Arnold was trying to convince his superior Isreal Putnam to counter attack. At Saratoga, When the British supply lines where sufficiently stretched thin, Putnum finally gave this order but first he relieved Arnold of his command. He did not want to share the credit with Arnold. Still, Arnold led the dramatic charge as a private and suffered a wound which led to the loss of his leg.

Arnold was wounded at the gates of QC and then lost a leg at Saratoga. He was passed over by congress several times and was never reimbursed fo the money he spent to outfit his malitia. Finally Arnold was relieved so that Putnam would not have to share credit with Arnold....it was a sad story. Somehow Arnold was a pet of G. Washingtons. Through a series of negotiations, Washington had the upper hand of the Continental Congree and they were jealous of GW ( this seemed to be a problem back in the day...men with huge egos that were easily dishonored and Arnold was no different). Anyway they took it out in GW's underlings like Arnold as a way to keep Washington's power in check. The end result was Arnold grew bitter. He was later caught red handed turning over the keys to West Point.

This is what I remember from the book Benadict Arnold's Navy by James Nelson. He is a Mainer. give it a read
http://www.amazon.com/Benedict-Arnolds-Navy-Champlain-Revolution/dp/0071468064

Now who can recommend a bok on the War of 1812?

 

[Possum Trot]

Not according to Johnny Horton. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LsRK3DNoa_Q

I suspected your idea of a history book was youtube

 

[Lovemaker]

Youtube is definitely better than a lot of history books out there.

 

[Turbodick]

Here is one of my favourite stories from the war, how the American side at Fort Mackinac weren't given the courtesy of a tiny detail like a war being declared.

Capture of Fort Mackinac

The United States Secretary of War William Eustis, who was apparently preoccupied with financial economies, had sent no communications to Hanks for several months. He sent word of the declaration of war on 18 June to the commanders in the northwest by ordinary rate post. The Postmaster at Cleveland, Ohio, realised the importance of the news and hired an express rider to take it to Brigadier General William Hull who was advancing on Detroit, but it was too late to save both Hull and Hanks from being taken by surprise by the outbreak of hostilities.[5]

Though he was unaware of events elsewhere, Hanks had heard rumours of unusual activity at St. Joseph Island. He sent a fur trader named Michael Dousman, who held a commission as an officer in the militia, to investigate. Dousman's boat was captured by the advancing British force, and Dousman apparently quickly changed sides.[1]

Having learned from Dousman that the U.S. forces were unaware of the outbreak of war, Robert's force landed at a settlement subsequently named British Landing on the north end of the island, 2 miles (3.2 km) away from the fort, early on the morning of 17 July. They quietly removed the village's inhabitants from their homes, dragged a 6-pounder cannon through the woods to a ridge above the fort, and fired a single round before sending a message under a flag of truce, demanding the U.S. forces surrender.[4]

Hanks's force was surprised and was already at a tactical disadvantage. The flag of truce had been accompanied by three of the villagers, who greatly exaggerated the number of Indians in Roberts's force.[6] Fearing a massacre by the Indians, Hanks capitulated without a fight. The United States garrison was taken prisoner but was released on giving their parole not to fight for the remainder of the war.

 

[hungry101]

Here is one of my favourite stories from the war, how the American side at Fort Mackinac weren't given the courtesy of a tiny detail like a war being declared.

Capture of Fort Mackinac

Having learned from Dousman that the U.S. forces were unaware of the outbreak of war, Robert's force landed at a settlement subsequently named British Landing on the north end of the island, 2 miles (3.2 km) away from the fort, early on the morning of 17 July. They quietly removed the village's inhabitants from their homes, dragged a 6-pounder cannon through the woods to a ridge above the fort, and fired a single round before sending a message under a flag of truce, demanding the U.S. forces surrender.[4]

Hanks's force was surprised and was already at a tactical disadvantage. The flag of truce had been accompanied by three of the villagers, who greatly exaggerated the number of Indians in Roberts's force.[6] Fearing a massacre by the Indians, Hanks capitulated without a fight. The United States garrison was taken prisoner but was released on giving their parole not to fight for the remainder of the war.

Great story Turbo. I've walked that route as a youngster. Mackinac Island is a favorite Michigan tourist destination. Take a ferry over from the UP at St Ignace or the LP at Mackinac city. there are no cars on the island - just bicycles and horses. Spend the night on the island at the Grand Hotel or at one of the many B&B's and take a walk back in time. It is very quiet and the smell of manure is in the air.

Also the threat of a massacre was very real. The fort was moved over from the mainland in 1781 in response to a Ojibwe massacre at fort michilimackinac in 1763.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fort_Michilimackinac

 

[mass1965]

Yes it was Benadict Arnold who was wounded at the gates of Quebec City...It was a two pronged attack upon Quebec. One wing attacked through NY into Montreal and the other led by Arnold attacked through Maine.
I beliieve that the seaway thawed a little early allowing the english to releive Quebec.

Read Benadict Arnold's Navy...I loved it. Turbo if you could recommend a book written to commemorate the 200th i would be happy to read it in 2012. Yes this is more exciting then watching the same story over an over on the news.

You are confusing the US war of independence with the War of 1812. FYI Benedict Arnold died in 1801. Could not have been involved with the War of 1812

 

[hungry101]

You are confusing the US war of independence with the War of 1812. FYI Benedict Arnold died in 1801. Could not have been involved with the War of 1812

Yes thanks. I am well aware of that. We were talking about failed invasions and Scicnarf brought up the American invasions of QC in 1775. I had read a fascinating book about the 1775 invasion of QC so I brought it up. I didn't mean to confuse the issue.

By the way, isn't it the 250'th aniversary of the French and Indian war?