Manhattan DA will no longer prosecute prostitution

[Henrique90]

Link: https://www.forbes.com/sites/carlie...-will-still-go-after-clients/?sh=ac7198051731

 

[Numerati]

Link: https://www.forbes.com/sites/carlie...-will-still-go-after-clients/?sh=ac7198051731

This is long overdue. If you legalize prostitution the city will actually be safer since there is an avenue for people to release. Without that there is too much bottle up and that is dangerous. I mean look at cities like Montreal and Toronto. With a good and respectable SP scene things are much cleaner and safer. When I lived in Montreal I was never much in fear walking alone at times. You can't mess with human nature. It is going to fight back and there will be consequences.

 

[CaptRenault]

Prostitution is not being legalized in New York. There is no change in the law. Read the announcement carefully and it just means that prosecutors will not pursue charges against sex workers.

But...and this is a BIG BUT...clients can and will still be arrested and prosecuted for the crime of paying for sex. It's the so-called Nordic model.

As usual, Elizabeth Nolan Brown of reason.com has the full story and analysis:

Manhattan Will Drop Charges for Prostitution and Unlicensed Massage but Continue Prosecuting Prostitution Patrons

The Nordic Model comes to Manhattan.

reason.com

Manhattan will dismiss thousands of prostitution and unlicensed massage cases, District Attorney Cy Vance, Jr. announced on Wednesday. Going forward, Vance's office will also decline to prosecute people for selling sexual activity—though they can still be arrested, and people paying for such services will still be arrested and prosecuted. Additionally, the office will stop prosecuting people for unlicensed massage.

Overall, it's a positive step. Vance's office has moved to dismiss 914 prostitution and unlicensed massage cases and 5,080 loitering for the purpose of prostitution cases (New York legislators repealed the prostitution loitering law statewide in February). It's also a reassuring sign of changing attitudes toward sex work and the criminal justice system.

Manhattan follows in the footsteps of Baltimore, which stopped prosecuting prostitution cases (for sex workers and their customers) and an array of other non-violent misdemeanors last year. And the move comes at a time when statehouses across the country have been considering prostitution decriminalization initiatives...

 

[Numerati]

Yeah. That was why I said "if they legalize prostitution"

You know with a move like this the road towards legalizing this is going forward. Small steps. Small steps. Like having casinos in NY.

 

[CaptRenault]

...But what is going to be interesting to watch is the street scene and the police reaction to it. A long, long time ago, the Times Square street scene was huge and legendary. Giuliano shut it down, of course. Presumably few want it to come back, so the police will likely make arrests if it becomes visible again. Prosecutions might not happen, but I don’t think the police will allow it, nor would Vance want that to be his legacy....

...I think Johns are relatively less likely to face arrest or prosecution once prosecutions no longer occur for sex workers.

I would not want to see hookers on the streets of New York or Montreal for that matter. It brings too much attention to prostitution and inevitably results in legal restrictions on all forms of prostitution.

I am not as optimistic as you, Patron, about johns not facing arrest or prosecution in New York. We have a few examples of Nordic Law countries. In the case of Canada (at least in Montreal and Toronto), Canada's Nordic Law has had virtually no negative impact on johns. However in countries like Sweden and France, johns are not safe from arrest and prosecution. I think it remains to be seen what happens in New York.

Here's what Elizabeth Nolan Brown said about the announcement in the article that I linked to above:

...In Manhattan, police aren't being asked to actually refrain from arresting sex workers or unlicensed masseuses. The plan is to still arrest these populations—still putting them into unnecessary contact with cops, still disrupting their work, still putting them on the state's radar—but to ultimately let them go if unlicensed massage or selling sex is their only offense.

"Any arrest involving these charges should be referred to the Human Trafficking Response Unit," state's Manhattan's new policy. "In cases where they are the sole charge, the Human Trafficking Response Unit will complete all necessary paperwork to formally decline to prosecute these cases and will arrange for information about voluntary services to be provided to the person arrested, but these services will no longer be mandated."

Vance's office notes that the new policy "does not preclude us from bringing other charges that may stem from a prostitution-related arrest."

While a Nordic Model-style system may be better than full criminalization, it's not what researchers, civil liberties advocates, and public health groups recommend, nor what sex workers say they want or need to keep them safe. What they're asking for is full decriminalization of prostitution between consenting adults—a system in which neither sex workers nor their customers are arrested or prosecuted.

 

[EagerBeaver]

I can remember the Time Square scene from before Giuliani in the 1980s. I was then a young guy in high school/20s, but what I remember more than a Montreal type street scene were brothels that were essentially abandoned theaters. You would go in and sit down and ladies would approach you. There was one in particular that I remember. There were incall rooms if you want to call it that, but they looked like empty, unfurnished concrete prison cells, and were not exactly like a well appointed room at the Ritz Carlton. I cannot recall the specific address of that one theater but it was in the Time Square area. You paid some "admission fee" to get in. So it was reasonably discreet and not a street scene per se. What actually existed at night in TImes Square at that time I cannot say, as I was only ever there during daytime hours on weekends.

 

[jmioffe]

There is a basic economic problem at play for which there are no answers.

If a person spends a few minutes on usasexguide.info, the reader quickly finds that an incredible economic demand exists in the U.S. for sex work in the $100-$300 an hour range. Those guys just can’t or won’t pay currently available U.S. prices.

Of course a great number of guys from the northeast of the U.S. who frequent merb solve this problem by going to Montreal or to other international locations. In doing so, they get a much higher level of sex worker and a much more upscale environment in which to ejaculate.

The U.S. has a comparable sex work scene that is not heavily pursued by law enforcement, but its current costs in New York City and other comparable large metropolitan areas is at least $500-$600 an hour, and often more once ancillary costs such as web memberships is considered. There are high costs of participating even for the ladies, which acts as a barrier to entry for them, and often excludes ladies who would otherwise sell sex at a much lower price. And the higher end U.S. sex workers are secretly happy that low-cost providers are largely shut out of the current scene.

This is really an economics issue often disguised as a legal / law enforcement issue. The “upper end” scene is hidden, but sex work in the U.S. in mass quantities at a low price simply cannot be hidden from the general public or the media, no matter what a few progressive district attorneys decide to do. Supply and demand are there for the low-end scene, but politicians and law enforcement have been actively taking away the infrastructure for the low-end scene for decades. Actively prohibiting the street scene, eliminating the use of abandoned structures and “love motels”, zoning out unlicensed massage parlors, seizing Backpage, and prohibiting mass classified advertising for sex work.

I don’t think there are any solutions here, especially those that would be appealing to guys who frequent Montreal or the higher-end scene. There may be a bit of the “Southwest Airlines” effect on the higher-end scene in the U.S. in that if the $200-$300 an hour scene returns to the masses, it might limit how much ladies at the higher-end can charge.

But I don’t think the fundamental economic issues, the disapproval by society, or the destruction of the lower-end of sex work infrastructure is being addressed by these three or four District Attorneys who say they are going to stop prosecuting sex workers. Especially since two of them are in affluent areas where there were few such prosecutions anyway since the federal government and other law enforcement groups have made it so difficult for low-end hookers to operate.

Are you saying the change in the law won't change anything because the greatest demand is for the low-end stuff ($100-$300) but the low-end stuff is also the most ostracized and culturally prohibited?

 

[jmioffe]

So, if Montreal is still closed to Americans, what's a good, equally safe but inevitably more expensive, option in NYC?

 

[EagerBeaver]

So, if Montreal is still closed to Americans, what's a good, equally safe but inevitably more expensive, option in NYC?

Really good question. For me, the safer but more expensive option is Seeking Arrangement. But as far as a guaranteed release on the first meeting rather than the usual dance you have to do on SA, I do not know the answer. Spellbound Massage seems to have now essentially disbanded. There are Russian owned full service massage parlors in lower Manhattan, one in particular on 28th Street I believe, which will run you around $500-$600 for FS. Although Russian owned, there are ladies there of different ethnicities, mostly immigrants and not 1st language English, white American girls. The guys who want Caucasian 1st language English women only (which does not include me), and are not willing to sample an ethnic smorgasbord, are going to likely be disappointed by what's available. However, if you are one who does not care about such things as race and ethnicity, there is plenty of immigrant women in NYC working below the radar, mostly Russian and EE, South and Central American, and Asian. That's why it is a hard question- there are tons of places but they all operate below the radar, like Spellbound once did, and you need to go under the radar to find them. It helps to know locals who frequent the various places.

 

[jmioffe]

That is a good summary, and I am saying it worries me.

The high end is a smaller scene and the players have the skills, knowledge and savvy to keep it out of the public eye. I don’t mean to sound elitist, but that is just the simple truth.

Police and prosecutors have ignored the upper-end scene forever, except for the federal government doing asset seizures of multi-state (and anything in NYC is multistate when you consider the travel between NY and NJ) that didn’t affect the sex workers and Johns.

If this prosecutorial position, and the New York Post publicity about it, emboldens lower-end sex workers who previously used backpage to more openly advertise and deliver services in a more public setting, the general populace is going to notice and may create negative publicity that has a detrimental effect. Just my opinion, but the masses have never been the friend of the higher-end scene.

I don’t begrudge the guy getting a $100 blow job in an abandoned building (although there are fewer of them in NYC than decades ago), but none of us want the next Mayor Rudy to make the call girl have to sign in when entering the nice hotel after the next Clean Up Times Square political campaign that comes after the general populace gets horrified at the Return of the Hookers. And the shutdown of Backpage and other mass classified by the federal government brings up the question of how the low-end scene ladies are supposed to advertise for customers.

That is my frustration with the three U.S. prosecutors who have taken these narrow positions. Their domain is very small, and they weren’t going after the types of sex workers who have survived the Purge anyway. So is it just meaningless grandstanding by the prosecutors that leads to unwanted future consequences? I have never found publicity to be a good thing for sex work in the U.S. Too many people oppose it, especially when they see it or hear about it. Keep it invisible to the public and things turn out much better.

Anyway, I will PM you my NYC favorites.

I get what you're saying, it's thinking a few steps ahead. Let's hope it doesn't turn out that way...

 

[RobertNYC]

So, if Montreal is still closed to Americans, what's a good, equally safe but inevitably more expensive, option in NYC?

My favorite options in NYC and NNJ are all in the $300-$350 range, with one agency offering $350 to as high as $400.

I saw one really cute Caucasian girl at $350 in NYC who rivaled my better appointments in Montreal. This particular agency has a quality over quantity mentality and books mostly college girls

Yes, there are $450-$650 offerings, I just won’t pay for them, because it’s not necessary.

There is one particular high volume agency that has $300-$400 rates, many of the girls are nowhere near Montreal quality and I wouldn’t sleep with many of them for free. But you do find some diamonds mixed in.

Patron knows a few of the agencies I’m talking about, but one in particular in NYC with college hotties is an agency I’ve only recently gotten back to.

 

[jmioffe]

My favorite options in NYC and NNJ are all in the $300-$350 range, with one agency offering $350 to as high as $400.

I saw one really cute Caucasian girl at $350 in NYC who rivaled my better appointments in Montreal. This particular agency has a quality over quantity mentality and books mostly college girls

Yes, there are $450-$650 offerings, I just won’t pay for them, because it’s not necessary.

There is one particular high volume agency that has $300-$400 rates, many of the girls are nowhere near Montreal quality and I wouldn’t sleep with many of them for free. But you do find some diamonds mixed in.

Patron knows a few of the agencies I’m talking about, but one in particular in NYC with college hotties is an agency I’ve only recently gotten back to.

$300-$350 seems like a good, justifiable rate. $500 for NYC is too much for me.

That's 2x Montreal prices for what? A little more convenience, not having to travel, maybe reduced LE threat, but per this thread, that's not as much of an issue anymore.

The girls in NYC are not 2x prettier, nor is it 2x a rare to meet pretty girls in NYC. NYC isn't Alaska or an old West gold mining town.

Also, if a date in Montreal is a bust, I can afford to take a $250 hit, or pay 50% for a cancellation. It's happened to me in Montreal.

I cannot justify that for a $500 NYC appointment.

 

[RobertNYC]

$300-$350 seems like a good, justifiable rate. $500 for NYC is too much for me.

That's 2x Montreal prices for what? A little more convenience, not having to travel, maybe reduced LE threat, but per this thread, that's not as much of an issue anymore.

The girls in NYC are not 2x prettier, nor is it 2x a rare to meet pretty girls in NYC. NYC isn't Alaska or an old West gold mining town.

Also, if a date in Montreal is a bust, I can afford to take a $250 hit, or pay 50% for a cancellation. It's happened to me in Montreal.

I cannot justify that for a $500 NYC appointment.

Well said. Many of us in the NYC Metro area are not all paying $600/hour. You can find Caucasian college cuties in the $350/hour range, a bit less for 1/2 hour.

The talent pool in NYC/NNJ is nowhere close to Montreal , but anyone who is resourceful and willing to submit to some modest screening will find a hot girl in the $300-$400 range at the more popular agencies. (We also have some good underground clubs (pop ups) frequented by NYU and Rutgers girls where takeout can be had if you got a bit of game, $400 and an hourly hotel. But even that gets pricey over time. And you can’t expect takeout every time.)

I will say a huge difference is this: every time I’m in Montreal, there are at least one or two girls on the Euphoria or Vogue rosters I’d want to see. Not always the case in NYC/NNJ. If I’m not impressed with a Tues lineup, I’ll wait until Thurs or Fri.

But I’m not a guy who will pay $600 for a session unless it’s a well known talent. Highest I’ve paid here was $450 to an Indy (quite regularly, and she was possibly the most beautiful girl I ever slept with).

 

[ggyy920904]

My favorite options in NYC and NNJ are all in the $300-$350 range, with one agency offering $350 to as high as $400.

I saw one really cute Caucasian girl at $350 in NYC who rivaled my better appointments in Montreal. This particular agency has a quality over quantity mentality and books mostly college girls

Curious about these good agencies you mentioned. Care to share the details ?

I lived in NYC for a few months in the past. Was struggling to find anything fuckable below the 400-600 range.

 

[EagerBeaver]

Patron,

What was the other Florida based agency that regularly toured ladies to DC, Philly, NYC and Boston with business model very similar to Miami Companions, which I think was also busted? Their name began with a P- I was thinking P10 because somehow their name reminded me of the PAC 10 football conference but that was not it, because I did a search and could not find anything. They had touring ladies in the $400-$500 range in NYC years ago. I could not think of their name. Their website had a video ad featuring a drop dread gorgeous Asian girl with her hair died blonde who may or may not have worked for them. They also may have been a sister agency of MC but my memory, which is not great any more, is that they outlasted MC but at some point were themselves busted.

 

[EagerBeaver]

Patron, as Roger Clemens would say, "I misremembered", but now I did remember. The name of the agency IS and was Perfect 10 Escorts:

Perfect Ten Escorts Beautiful National and International Escorts

Find Miami escorts, escort agencies and other adult entertainers in Miami. Includes strippers, exotic dancers and massage. Provides links to both Miami escorts and escort agencies in the Miami area.

www.perfecttenescorts.com

They are still in business. NOT BUSTED. At one time I did see one of their ladies at a midtown Manhattan hotel incall, at least 8-9 years ago. She was either $450 or $500 and drop dead gorgeous. Similar to HDH in Montreal. Was an Iranian American girl. She was at that time one of their VIPs.

Under their "travelling" section, does not look like they are touring any more. But it looks like "Ericka" is available in NYC. Could one of you guys check her out and post a review?

 

[EagerBeaver]

The U.S. has a comparable sex work scene that is not heavily pursued by law enforcement

I just wanted to comment on your discussion of LE going after lower end sex work scene but not so much on the higher end scene. I think much of what you said is true but for local prosecutors and politicians, the low end is basically just low hanging fruit and easy targets that are easily prosecuted and they usually do not have the resources to fight back. In the past on the infrequent occasions when higher end agencies got prosecuted, it was usually due to an unrelated investigation revealing money laundering and large sums of income not being reported, as in the case of the Empire Club. It was only due to Eliot Spitzer that they ever were prosecuted. Spitzer was only being investigated for political reasons, and not having to do with any agenda to go after higher end escort agencies. It is or was because of these kinds of incidental, unrelated investigations that most other higher end agencies got prosecuted. If it were not for Spitzer, the Empire Club would probably still be in business.

So it's my theory that if your high end US agency isn't obvious low hanging fruit and you do not have a celebrity client being investigated for other reasons, your chances of ever being prosecuted if you operate reasonable discreetly and do all the minimal legal T and I crossing and dotting, are slim.

 

[EagerBeaver]

The publicity is to sell stories. Sex sells. In the case of the media bringing up Seeking Arrangement in conjunction with Matt Gaetz, there are 2 reasons why they are doing it: (1) they see Gaetz as a hypocritical conservative Republican who on the one hand behaves like a ladies man and brags about his sexual conquests, yet on the other hand pays for his sex, despite having both solid good looks and a powerful position in Government; and (2) sex sells their stories, especially paid sex with politicians. I think most prosecutors are not total fucking dummies and make the same observations as me and see these stories for what they are.

 

[EagerBeaver]

And then there is good ol’boy Grady Judd down in Polk County, Florida who makes doing prostitution stings his pride and joy.

https://www.wfla.com/news/polk-county/disney-worker-teachers-among-160-arrested-in-polk-county-human-trafficking-investigation-sheriff/

So much depends in the U.S. as to how you do it and where you do it at.

No Fight Club allowed in Polk County, Florida.

Judd is simply the 2022 reincarnation of Sheriff JW Pepper, see video link below. Anyone who knows Florida knows that there are large swaths of the State filled with speed traps for unwary motorists ( see the two links below video) prostitution stings waiting to happen (ask Robert Kraft) and pain management clinics that are nothing more than legal drug dealers who fanned the national opioid epidemic (last link). The State is a minefield of corruption and exploitation:

Speed trap city accused of corruption, threatened with extinction | CNN

Florida lawmakers say little Hampton, once a notorious speed trap, is so corrupt it doesn't deserve to be a city.

www.cnn.com

Infamous Fla. speed trap town's police force disbanding

Move comes just weeks after the chief and interim chief resigned because of state investigations into many issues

www.police1.com

Overprescribing Opioids in Delray Beach | Banyan Treatment Center

The opioid epidemic may be a national problem, but it’s a major issue in Palm Beach County, with two pharmacies handling a frightening number of opioids in Delray Beach according to a recent DEA report.

www.banyantreatmentcenter.com

 

[EagerBeaver]

The Judd character in Polk County is a classic small town redneck hick sheriff who is picking on low hanging fruit and the truth is, there is lots and lots of low hanging fruit to pick on in Polk County. The very low end of the sex business, the street level clients. In most cases these people don't have the financial wherewithal to fight back with attorneys, lawsuits and trials preceded by scorched earth defense investigations steered by competent and well paid attorneys. It's kind of sickening that Judd beats his chest over arrests of the lowest hanging fruit who will never fight back and challenge what he is doing.