The Anti-Civilization Thread

[z/m(Ret)]

I have a story for youzguys: a group of Ghandi inspired eco-activists in Oregon would gather on a hillside whenever they knew that transnational timber corporations would be spraying it with Agent Orange, a potent defoliant. They were hoping that their presence would convince the helicopters pilots to stop the poisoning. Instead, the helicopters would dump loads of Agent Orange onto the hillside and onto the protesters. Later on, one not-so-Ghandian Vietnam veteran who was living in one of those hills went up to the Bureau of Land Management and to Boise Cascade saying: "We know the names of your helicopter pilots, and we know their addresses"... The spraying stopped.

Unless one has a vested interest in ignorance, it should be clear to everyone that industrial civilization is killing the planet and causing unprecedented human privation and suffering.

Questions: what do youzguys do about it? Nada? You hope for better days? You vote for the party with the better environmental program? You protest? And if you do, how do you do it? What's your style? Ghandian? Seattlean? Shit! Kaczynskian? Where do you stand on the hostility scale? If non-violent actions don't work, must we then resort to violence to save ourselves and, along the way, the planet? Speaking of the planet, what would the rivers, the salmons and the trees want? And, BTW, what do we, humans, want? What is it gonna take?

 

[Kepler]

it should be clear to everyone that industrial civilization is [...] causing unprecedented human privation and suffering.

Oh yeah, things were so much better before industrial civilization.

I would love to go back to being a hunter gatherer. Or walking 4 kilometres to the store to buy fruits (but only in summer, because they don't grow around these parts in winter) or to the local witch doctor. And of course dying within 30 kilometres of where I was born, never having seen Paris or the Peking, because air travel is oh-so-evil-and-polluting.


It's clear to me that industrial civilization has increased human lifespan, even in the poorest countries. The bottom 10% of people in North America live with access to things the richest 1% never ever dreamt of 100 years ago.

And yes, there are things we could do better. There always are. There always will be.

 

[Rexroth]

Questions: what do youzguys do about it?

Possible answers:

Nothing, my mortgage payment is due today.

Nuke the planet and wipe out all human beings. That way, perhaps the next iteration of sentience will do a better job of things.

Join the Green Party and try to get in power. The major obstacle here is getting anyone outside the party to pay attention to you. The major risk is cooptation if people start paying attention.

Go underground. Control the stock market with a view to using capital as a lever to attenuate the ravages of industrialism. This one is not as far fetched as it might seem. The preliminary step involves controlling the curriculum of elementary and secondary schools –i.e., taking control of the primary ideological state apparatus and shape the hearts and minds of future investment bankers.

 

[pookiebear]

THe planet doesnt need to be save contrary to all the neo-progressive err. liberals friends think she does. Mother earth is not going any where and it is a farce to think we, mankind, is going to endanger her. The planet will evolve and heal herself through time and in the end will be here while we and other species will come and go. I dont think the planet will care if mankind extince ourselves through our own stupidity and waste of resource. If we want to save Mankind from our own stupidity then we must do it through education. Like the last blogger said you have to plant the education and the benefit of having a cleaner planet for the next generation. These elementary and junior high schoolers are the next business and leaders of the world, if we continue to turn a blind eyes to what we are doing to the enviroment so will they. Through education they will learn that it is them that will inherit the earth and that they are part of the solution for the future. I dont want to sound like a jerk but in 50 years when I'm dead I don't really give a rats ass about this planet. All I'll be is food for the worms. For those of you that have children it is one of your primary focus to teach them to be "enviromental friendly" and with that goal comes a cost . The cost of inconvienience and possibly the cost of higer price. This problem is a global problem and it is beyond countries like U.S and Europe many up and coming countries such as China, India and Mexico are becoming more industialized and they need to pay attention in their quest to expansion.

 

[z/m(Ret)]

One word: "cinnamon" (couldn't come up with another one ) - Well, actually, I meant to ask: Anyone ever heard of "sustainable development"?

 

[Rexroth]

One word: "cinnamon" (couldn't come up with another one ) - Well, actually, I meant to ask: Anyone ever heard of "sustainable development"?

Sure have, but I didn't know Viagra came in different flavours

 

[z/m(Ret)]

Oh yeah, things were so much better before industrial civilization. (...) And yes, there are things we could do better. There always are. There always will be.

Sarcasm noted, anarcho-primitivism is not your cup of (fair-traded ) tea, but allow me to ask this question: what do you do that would qualify, according to you, at making things better?

Possible answers: Nothing, my mortgage payment is due today. (...) Go underground. Control the stock market with a view to using capital as a lever to attenuate the ravages of industrialism. This one is not as far fetched as it might seem. The preliminary step involves controlling the curriculum of elementary and secondary schools –i.e., taking control of the primary ideological state apparatus and shape the hearts and minds of future investment bankers.

How about adding this to the compendium of actions, dixit Carl von Clausewitz? "What do we mean by the defeat of the enemy? Simply the destruction of his forces, whether by death, injury, or any other means - either completely, or enough to make him stop fighting ... The complete or partial destruction of the enemy must be regarded as the sole object of all engagements... Direct annihilation of the ennemy's forces must always be the dominant consideration"

 

[JustBob]

I make tax deductible contributions to charity.

Seriously? Nothing. I don't care, I've already given. See someone's else point above about education.

 

[Rexroth]

Direct annihilation of the enemy's forces must always be the dominant consideration"

We are the enemy. Like I said, Nuke 'em.

 

[z/m(Ret)]

All I'll be is food for the worms.

With all the GMO staples sitting in your colon, worms might find your remains unpalatable...

 

[z/m(Ret)]

Other than that, I try to make people around me more aware of the consequences of their actions.

Industrialists are well aware of the consequences of their actions but they still won't give a fuck, so what do we do to make them understand?

 

[z/m(Ret)]

I pray for you to become High Priest so I can convert to your religion

If I ever become your leader, I would therefore order you to terminate me if power hasn't corrupted me yet.

 

[z/m(Ret)]

We are the enemy. Like I said, Nuke 'em.

We're the enemy because - to paraphrase Dietrich Bonhoeffer (who?) - we're spending too much time in thinking, supposing that if we weigh in advance the possibilities of any action, it will happen automatically. Actions comes, not from thought, but from a readiness for responsibility.

"Cowardice asks the question, "Is it safe?" Expediency asks the question, "Is it politic?" And Vanity comes along and asks the question, "Is it popular?" But Conscience asks the question, "Is it right?" And there comes a time when one must take a position that is neither safe, nor politic, nor popular, but he must do it because Conscience tells him it is right." - Martin Luther King, Jr.

 

[z/m(Ret)]

Ziggy, unfortunately, I don't think there is much we can do, other than, as you said earlier in the discussion, vote for the party who offers the best enviromental program.

In the recent Quebec elections, besides the Greens and QS, apparently - apparently because you really think I checked any of the candidates program? Seriously! - the PQ showed a tad of a mini irresolute environmental program. How confident would you have been in the Qc governement making things better had the PQ won the elections?

I think peaceful manifestations can sometimes influence our government but they have to be huge and well organized. Are you up for the task?

Up for the task? One day, I might publish my memoirs...

As for violence... I don't see what good it can do aside from making environmentalists look to the average joe like a bunch of agressive nutjobs.

Kids gets bullied in the schoolyard, he cries to mamma who cries to the principal who summons the teacher who summons the bully and after that the bully will show the kid how stool pigeons are treated in his pissyard so the kid shuts up and takes the bullying, day after day, until he's had it and kicks the bully in the nuts so hard that the bully is permanently incapacitated and everyone in the schoolyard go: "oooh, some aggressive nutjob this kid is..." Question: according to you, what would the kid hate most: being called a nutjob or getting his ass kicked after school?

By the way, did you watch the documentary about seal hunting, yesterday at RDI? It was interesting and clearly showed that so called ecologists are not always the good guys.

Nope, explain in what way they were the bad guys.

 

[Rexroth]

We're the enemy because - to paraphrase Dietrich Bonhoeffer (who?) - we're spending too much time in thinking, supposing that if we weigh in advance the possibilities of any action, it will happen automatically. Actions comes, not from thought, but from a readiness for responsibility.

"Cowardice asks the question, "Is it safe?" Expediency asks the question, "Is it politic?" And Vanity comes along and asks the question, "Is it popular?" But Conscience asks the question, "Is it right?" And there comes a time when one must take a position that is neither safe, nor politic, nor popular, but he must do it because Conscience tells him it is right." - Martin Luther King, Jr.

You're not going to get an argument from me on that score. What do you propose?

 

[JustBob]

Go work for Greenpeace for a while and if you manage not to get totally brainwashed, get back to me. There are as many nutjobs and wacko scientists in the environmentalist camp as there are in the "big business" camp. And there isn't a better proof of this than in Global Warming research.

 

[z/m(Ret)]

You're not going to get an argument from me on that score. What do you propose?

Re: post #18, how about kicking the bully in the nuts? Do you need me to translate this sort of impulse into an anarcho-primitivist manifesto? Wouldn't be the first time I'd get arrested for felony, yanaw?...

 

[z/m(Ret)]

Go work for Greenpeace for a while and if you manage not to get totally brainwashed, get back to me. There are as many nutjobs and wacko scientists in the environmentalist camp as there are in the "big business" camp. And there isn't a better proof of this than in Global Warming research.

Forget Greenpeace but answer my question: how's our environment doing these days according to you?

 

[Agrippa]

[...] Later on, one not-so-Ghandian Vietnam veteran who was living in one of those hills went up to the Bureau of Land Management and to Boise Cascade saying: "We know the names of your helicopter pilots, and we know their addresses"... The spraying stopped.

I take immense pleasure in reading not only what you say, but how you say it Ziggy. Thanks!

The only thing that concerns me in this case is that this is not democracy (As stated in this post's original, native thread) but rather terrorism? Isn't this what religious-right abortion clinic bombers say: "We know where you live"?

Great story nonetheless. I agree that democracy does not happen by casting a vote once every few years, but would it not lead to pandemonium if everyone said "Je règle ça à ma manière"?

 

[Agrippa]

[...] Anyone ever heard of "sustainable development"?

I must say that the pessimism expressed by a few posters in this thread is alarming. Sustainable development is the only way to go if we want to continue living at this pace. Face the facts. The earth has a horizon, limits, it is finite. There aren't enough fields to pasture livestock for everyone, there isn't enough arable land for wheat for everyone. There isn't enough fresh water for everyone! There are only so many resources to use (let alone 'exploit' as they say). We do not own the earth, we are the earth. We are what we eat and breathe. I'll stop my rant here... and just say that, yes we do need to continue developing, that's a given, but we need to do so in a manner that can be sustained. We can't just use everything up and shrug once we're fucked.

I'll direct you to Paul Hawken's The Ecology of Commerce. It is a book about sustainable development. The interesting thing for you non-left-leaning-capitalist types is that his argument revolves not so much around the environment per se, but around business. Business needs to be sustainable in order to continue to exist. [Insert more stuff here ] My apologies, I read it a handful of years ago and am drawing a blank on his arguments, but will dig up my copy and see if I underlined anything of import to the thread.

Maybe someone (Ziggy?) can suggest something even more reactionary or up to date.