Would you trust me as "Merb's voice" in the open?

[minutemenX]

That's not true. But I'm tired of arguing with people who hate women yet love having an easy way to fuck them.

quod erat demonstrandum

 

[Flabert]

That's not true. But I'm tired of arguing with people who hate women yet love having an easy way to fuck them.

I don’t hate women at all. Am just saying thay most anti-prostitution advocacy is woman-led.

And to be fair, I don’t even think most of them are disingenuous. I think some truly empathize with the plight they imagine prostitutes live through (while men can’t empathize as directly). They can also empathize with wives and girlfriends of clients who lose out financially and emotionally to their partner using prostitutes.

Not a single man in my network has reposted the enquete show but a few women did.

 

[Lunaseraphim]

I don’t hate women at all. Am just saying thay most anti-prostitution advocacy is woman-led.

Some of the advocacy is woman led, yes. Often led by women who are biased because they worked with victims of sex trafficking, or are victims themselves. This very specific advocacy doesn't make or break laws. These organizations aren't even taken seriously by most feminist and anti domestic abuse orgs. If you dug deeper, that is what you would find out. There are plenty of organizations that are in favor of decriminalization as well, that are women-led.

The people who make these laws are mostly men, mostly people with conservative or centrist beliefs. It is Donald Trump that caused the most damage to the women in this industry in the last 10 years. After Fosta Sesta, many sex workers went back to the street or weren't able to work independently anymore. The Nordic model actually harms women instead of helping them, despite clients here believing otherwise.

 

[malboro_man]

Of course.

If you’re trying to inform the general population that most clients aren’t blood-sucking doctors, you clearly need to wear a serial killer mask, obviously!

Since Mike's avatar is Michael in Halloween, I wasn't thinking if he needs to wear as mask, he might want to wear Michael's mask. I wasn't thinking LOL

 

[Flabert]

Some of the advocacy is woman led, yes. Often led by women who are biased because they worked with victims of sex trafficking, or are victims themselves. This very specific advocacy doesn't make or break laws. These organizations aren't even taken seriously by most feminist and anti domestic abuse orgs. If you dug deeper, that is what you would find out. There are plenty of organizations that are in favor of decriminalization as well, that are women-led.

The people who make these laws are mostly men, mostly people with conservative or centrist beliefs. It is Donald Trump that caused the most damage to the women in this industry in the last 10 years. After Fosta Sesta, many sex workers went back to the street or weren't able to work independently anymore. The Nordic model actually harms women instead of helping them, despite clients here believing otherwise.

I would bet not a single client here believes that the nordic model (that targets clients) is a good thing. Have never seen a single post supporting this!

And you are wrong that advocacy does not make or break laws. No politicians want to be on the right but controversial side of a moral panic…

 

[Lunaseraphim]

I would bet not a single client here believes that the nordic model (that targets clients) is a good thing. Have never seen a single post supporting this!

And you are wrong that advocacy does not make or break laws. No politicians want to be on the right but controversial side of a moral panic…

I've seen a lot of clients here victimize themselves and act as if these laws protect us yet penalize them. That's not the case. These laws are detrimental to us just as much as they are to the clients.

Sure advocacy can change laws, but it's not because of very small advocacy groups that these laws have been passed.

Do you sincerely think Trump cares about radfems? Same thing with the conservative government that passed those laws in Canada.

What governments don't want, is to have to think longer about an industry they perceive as undesirable and ugly to look at.

They aren't trying to get "jealous awful civilian women's votes" lol like I said elsewhere no matter what the government simply doesn't have enough information to make proper choices because this involves marginalized women, impoverished communities, other social issues most of them don't want to put resources in dealing with etc.

Most people do not think about the sex industry on a day to day basis.. certainly not most civilian women.. it's an "underworld" to them.

Like I said there are just as many pro sex worker organizations who do advocacy and that's also why a lot of main feminist organizations actually are in favor of decriminalization, more and more. Those organizations that advocate for sex workers rights are the ones to be encouraged. Let sex workers themselves take care of the advocacy.

 

[Vardhan945]

Some of the advocacy is woman led, yes. Often led by women who are biased because they worked with victims of sex trafficking, or are victims themselves. This very specific advocacy doesn't make or break laws. These organizations aren't even taken seriously by most feminist and anti domestic abuse orgs. If you dug deeper, that is what you would find out. There are plenty of organizations that are in favor of decriminalization as well, that are women-led.

The people who make these laws are mostly men, mostly people with conservative or centrist beliefs. It is Donald Trump that caused the most damage to the women in this industry in the last 10 years. After Fosta Sesta, many sex workers went back to the street or weren't able to work independently anymore. The Nordic model actually harms women instead of helping them, despite clients here believing otherwise.

You are 100% correct that the political and legal crackdown against this industry cannot be blamed on civilian women. That is a lazy explanation.

What hes getting at imo is that when confronted with the subject, women generally react with disgust at the industry towards both the SPs and the men that use them. The cynical side of my brain thinks it's because it undermines their power in intersexual dynamics...that may be a terminally online POV though idk.

Dudes on the other hand just shrug and dismiss the women as victims and the johns as losers but don't feel too strongly about them either way.

 

[Flabert]

I've seen a lot of clients here victimize themselves and act as if these laws protect us yet penalize them. That's not the case. These laws are detrimental to us just as much as they are to the clients.

Sure advocacy can change laws, but it's not because of very small advocacy groups that these laws have been passed.

Do you sincerely think Trump cares about radfems? Same thing with the conservative government that passed those laws in Canada.

What governments don't want, is to have to think longer about an industry they perceive as undesirable and ugly to look at.

They aren't trying to get "jealous awful civilian women's votes" lol like I said elsewhere no matter what the government simply doesn't have enough information to make proper choices because this involves marginalized women, impoverished communities, other social issues most of them don't want to put resources in dealing with etc.

Most people do not think about the sex industry on a day to day basis.. certainly not most civilian women.. it's an "underworld" to them.

Like I said there are just as many pro sex worker organizations who do advocacy and that's also why a lot of main feminist organizations actually are in favor of decriminalization, more and more. Those organizations that advocate for sex workers rights are the ones to be encouraged. Let sex workers themselves take care of the advocacy.

I just went to check surveys and men in Canada are consistently more in support of legalizing prostitution than women (by about 20% in every survey).

But saying that is not hating women - I think most women who are anti-prostitution (not sure I can say the same about men) have heartfelt empathy.

I googled anti prostitution advocacy in Canada and see this group as representative of the left side (90% female )

Leadership Team | Defend Dignity

Meet our leadership team! Glendyne Gerrard, the director of Defend Dignity, works out of the national office of The Christian and Missionary Alliance...

defenddignity.ca

I also see evangelical groups (right side) where men are more represented but it is more 60-40

 

[Lunaseraphim]

You are 100% correct that the political and legal crackdown against this industry cannot be blamed on civilian women. That is a lazy explanation.

What hes getting at imo is that when confronted with the subject, women generally react with disgust at the industry towards both the SPs and the men that use them. The cynical side of my brain thinks it's because it undermines their power in intersexual dynamics...that may be a terminally online POV though idk.

Dudes on the other hand just shrug and dismiss the women as victims and the johns as losers but don't feel too strongly about them either way.

No. A lot of men express disgust at sex workers and their clients too. In general I've heard a lot more awful things said about prostitutes by men than women. Dead hooker jokes were quite common when I was in university. Girls didn't find that funny.

What you're expressing is indeed a terminally online point of view

 

[Johnny test]

we seem to be hijacking @Halloween Mike original question

 

[Lunaseraphim]

I just went to check surveys and men in Canada are consistently more in support of legalizing prostitution than women (by about 20% in every survey).

But saying that is not hating women - I think most women who are anti-prostitution (not sure I can say the same about men) have heartfelt empathy.

I googled anti prostitution advocacy in Canada and see this group as representative of the left side (90% female )

Leadership Team | Defend Dignity

Meet our leadership team! Glendyne Gerrard, the director of Defend Dignity, works out of the national office of The Christian and Missionary Alliance...

defenddignity.ca

I also see evangelical groups (right side) where men are more represented but it is more 60-40

Yes the anti prostitution groups are generally on the left because like I said their leaders are often misguided. They genuinely believe most sex workers are trafficking victims. They also view themselves as defending sexual exploitation in other countries where extremely abusive sex tourism is done.

A lot of people who do anti SW advocacy aren't jealous bitter women. Unfortunately a lot of them have worked with victims of pimps, women who engaged in survival sex work in extreme conditions etc. They are seeing something that actually does exist. Some people who work for these organizations actually are trafficking survivors. A lot of them are biased. Some absolutely do make a career out of it and profit from it tho.

What these people don't see is the entire industry. They can't comprehend that for somebody it might be easier in a lot of ways to do sex work than a minimum wage job to get out of poverty and that for us it's something we can tolerate as long as there's no abuse. They think this industry only attracts abusers because they don't witness the multitude of encounters that an average sex worker who isn't in an extremely precarious situation will have.

Men are in favor of legalizing not decriminalizing prostitution, that is an important nuance, and this says a lot. Have you considered that maybe some of them want it legalized only so that all workers pay taxes and to push away women who aren't legal immigrants? (Because as we know, these women are a big part of the industry, whether you like it or not) It's not necessarily for noble selfless reasons or because they have a better image of the industry or understand it more.

I think most citizens do not have enough education unfortunately to have an informed opinion on the subject, whether they are men or women. This subject is taboo and misunderstood. Sex workers themselves, who come from different backgrounds, should be the ones to organize and talk about it in public.

 

[Lunaseraphim]

we seem to be hijacking @Halloween Mike original question

No. This is also a response to his question.

I don't think merb needs to be represented in the media.

 

[Flabert]

but back to the initial topic.

I think you will be sorely disappointed of the result if you appear in a mainstream media story about prostitution. The questions and editing will be biased and you likely overestimate how convincing you are. Moral panic sells!

If it is a discussion with a pro sex-work angle then maybe your message will go through but it won’t have the same reach.

 

[Flabert]

Yes the anti prostitution groups are generally on the left because like I said their leaders are often misguided. They genuinely believe most sex workers are trafficking victims. They also view themselves as defending sexual exploitation in other countries where extremely abusive sex tourism is done.

A lot of people who do anti SW advocacy aren't jealous bitter disgruntled feminists. Unfortunately a lot of them have worked with victims of pimps, women who engaged in survival sex work in extreme conditions etc. They are seeing something that actually does exist. Some people who work for these organizations actually are trafficking survivors.

What these people don't see is the entire industry. They can't comprehend that for somebody it might be easier in a lot of ways to do sex work than a minimum wage job to get out of poverty and that for us it's something we can tolerate as long as there's no abuse. They think this industry only attracts abusers because they don't witness the multitude of encounters that an average sex worker who isn't in an extremely precarious situation will have.

Men are in favor of legalizing not decriminalizing prostitution, that is an important nuance, and this says a lot. Have you considered that maybe some of them want it legalized only so that all workers pay taxes and to push away women who aren't legal immigrants? (Because as we know, these women are a big part of the industry, whether you like it or not) It's not necessarily for noble selfless reasons or because they have a better image of the industry or understand it more.

I think most citizens do not have enough education unfortunately to have an informed opinion on the subject, whether they are men or women. This subject is taboo and misunderstood. Sex workers themselves, who come from different backgrounds, should be the ones to organize and talk about it in public.

Legalization vs decriminalization is a black belt topic that the average survey responder don’t think about. And many decriminalization supporters say “we pay taxes it has nothing to do with taxes”

Do you realize that you think men who disagree with you on this are evil, women who disagree with you are victims, the left that disagrees with you is misguided and the general population is smart when they agree with you and “not educated enough” when they don’t.

I think this is a complex topic where many have strong visceral reactions but legalizing consenting adult sexwork is the most coherent and harm minimizing solution.

Illegal immigrants is another Rorschach test. I think that part opens the discussion to trafficking - I want sex workers to be fully legal so they can make their own decisions, choose their own conditions and be able to reach to police/courts with full support and caring if someone cheats or abuses them.

 

[Halloween Mike]

we seem to be hijacking @Halloween Mike original question

I think all that had to be said specifically on my question was said. The majority of you saying its better not to and that everything would be distorded is very likely to happen, so i won't do it. I won't hide that i was a bit emotive that night as it all happened. A mix of disapointement and a bit of anger toward the medias for jumping the shark that much. But the dust is falling, the former Euphoria SPs seem to relocate in different agencies. Of course nothing prevent these journalists from doing another piece in the futur but only time can tell.

I do hope James manage to rebound in some way and not just in this business but i mean in life. I spoke with my cousin who watched the show and he agreed with me that James didn't looked "bad" per say. But considering his face and full name was shown, its still a blow to him. Just hope he is ok mentally and all.

 

[malboro_man]

I think all that had to be said specifically on my question was said. The majority of you saying its better not to and that everything would be distorded is very likely to happen, so i won't do it. I won't hide that i was a bit emotive that night as it all happened. A mix of disapointement and a bit of anger toward the medias for jumping the shark that much. But the dust is falling, the former Euphoria SPs seem to relocate in different agencies. Of course nothing prevent these journalists from doing another piece in the futur but only time can tell.

I do hope James manage to rebound in some way and not just in this business but i mean in life. I spoke with my cousin who watched the show and he agreed with me that James didn't looked "bad" per say. But considering his face and full name was shown, its still a blow to him. Just hope he is ok mentally and all.

I support you either way because it is you who is putting yourself out there.

 

[Lunaseraphim]

Legalization vs decriminalization is a black belt topic that the average survey responder don’t think about. And many decriminalization supporters say “we pay taxes it has nothing to do with taxes”

Do you realize that you think men who disagree with you on this are evil, women who disagree with you are victims, the left that disagrees with you is misguided and the general population is smart when they agree with you and “not educated enough” when they don’t.

I think this is a complex topic where many have strong visceral reactions but legalizing consenting adult sexwork is the most coherent and harm minimizing solution.

Illegal immigrants is another Rorschach test. I think that part opens the discussion to trafficking - I want sex workers to be fully legal so they can make their own decisions, choose their own conditions and be able to reach to police/courts with full support and caring if someone cheats or abuses them.

Yes I've seen people claim they pay taxes and I'm sure it's true but I don't think this is even relevant to the topic when it comes to the subject of morality. I do think a lot of people don't like us because their image is that we don't pay taxes and to them that means we are somewhat like petty criminals.

Immigrant sex workers who don't have their papers aren't necessarily being trafficked. It's the way they found to survive in a country where it's not possible for them to work. If sex work was legalized, these women would be deported. That probably includes a lot of favorite providers of Merb users even if they don't know this.

I never said men who disagree with me are evil and women who disagree with me are victims. That's a really weird summary of what I wrote.. I just tried to show you a different way of looking at things. Btw if somebody is a trafficking victims I'm pretty sure she counts as a victim. I don't think the women who do this advocacy are listening honestly which is the biggest issue.

Anyways I don't agree with legalization. I'm in favour of decriminalization but I will not get into it because it involves caring about marginalized populations and understanding why it wouldn't improve the industry, from the side of the worker and not from the perspective of a client.

What we can all agree on is that criminalizing clients is bad.

 

[CaptRenault]

Women can be truly harsh on “easy women”.

That's definitely true. A perfect example of that comes from the current case of an alleged rape of a girl at Cornell University that has been in the news recently. The girl initially agreed to a night of wild group sex fueled by drugs and alcohol with several guys at a frat house. Then word of her escapades leaked out to her sorority sisters and they immediately slut shamed her. After that happened, she decided that in fact she had been raped and she complained to the police and filed a civil suit against Cornell and the guys who had sex with her and/or watched.

 

[CaptRenault]

Some of the advocacy is woman led, yes. Often led by women who are biased because they worked with victims of sex trafficking, or are victims themselves. This very specific advocacy doesn't make or break laws. These organizations aren't even taken seriously by most feminist and anti domestic abuse orgs. If you dug deeper, that is what you would find out. There are plenty of organizations that are in favor of decriminalization as well, that are women-led.

The people who make these laws are mostly men, mostly people with conservative or centrist beliefs. It is Donald Trump that caused the most damage to the women in this industry in the last 10 years. After Fosta Sesta, many sex workers went back to the street or weren't able to work independently anymore. The Nordic model actually harms women instead of helping them, despite clients here believing otherwise.

Bullshit

My quick Google search of the phrase "canada poll opinion prostitution results by sex" shows conclusively that Canadian Women are much more opposed to prostitution than Canadian men are:


AI Overview

Canadian public opinion polls on prostitution consistently show a clear gender gap, with men far more likely than women to view the sex trade or its components as morally acceptable or legal.
Research Co. +1

Research Co. Poll (June 2024)
According to a national survey by Research Co., overall moral acceptability of prostitution in Canada dropped to 25%. The results broken down by sex show:
Research Co. +1

• • Men: 34% find prostitution morally acceptable.
  • Women: 17% find prostitution morally acceptable.
    Research Co.

Angus Reid Global Poll (Historical / Legislative Split)
An Angus Reid Global survey on the buying and selling of sex and legislation (such as Bill C-36) also highlighted a wide divide between men and women:
Angus Reid Institute Canada

• • Selling sex should be legal:
    • Men: 62%
    • Women: 40%
      Angus Reid Institute Canada
  • Buying sex should be legal:
    • Men: 56%
    • Women: 34%
      Angus Reid Institute Canada
  • Buying sex should be illegal:
    • Women: 55%
    • Men: 34%
      Angus Reid Institute Canada
  • Advertising the sale of sex should be legal:
    • Men: 39%
    • Women: 20%
      Angus Reid Institute Canada
  • Legal operation of brothels:
    • Men: 57%
    • Women: 38%
      Angus Reid Institute Canada

 

[Lunaseraphim]

My quick Google search of the phrase "canada poll opinion prostitution results by sex" shows conclusively that Canadian Women are much more opposed to prostitution than Canadian men are:


AI Overview

Canadian public opinion polls on prostitution consistently show a clear gender gap, with men far more likely than women to view the sex trade or its components as morally acceptable or legal.
Research Co. +1

Research Co. Poll (June 2024)
According to a national survey by Research Co., overall moral acceptability of prostitution in Canada dropped to 25%. The results broken down by sex show:
Research Co. +1

• • Men: 34% find prostitution morally acceptable.
  • Women: 17% find prostitution morally acceptable.
    Research Co.

Angus Reid Global Poll (Historical / Legislative Split)
An Angus Reid Global survey on the buying and selling of sex and legislation (such as Bill C-36) also highlighted a wide divide between men and women:
Angus Reid Institute Canada

• • Selling sex should be legal:
    • Men: 62%
    • Women: 40%
      Angus Reid Institute Canada
  • Buying sex should be legal:
    • Men: 56%
    • Women: 34%
      Angus Reid Institute Canada
  • Buying sex should be illegal:
    • Women: 55%
    • Men: 34%
      Angus Reid Institute Canada
  • Advertising the sale of sex should be legal:
    • Men: 39%
    • Women: 20%
      Angus Reid Institute Canada
  • Legal operation of brothels:
    • Men: 57%
    • Women: 38%
      Angus Reid Institute Canada

Donald Trump is a woman? Anyways you guys are missing my point. None of this is explaining why certain people are in favor of this industry and why they aren't.