Nobody 's talking about Ukraine in here.... Why?

[Vercingentorix]

Is it because the many liberal supporters of King Obama are finally waking up to his naivety and ignorance and finally are embarrassed by their choices ?

How about the Falklands islands, or the Islas Malvinas as referred to by our espagnol speaking friends? These are historically Argentinian territories off its coast and not British. Lady Thatcher is long gone now, replaced by a British version of Obama.

I can go on and on. But , I will stop here. Go ahead, call us we the critics of King Obama 'war mongers'. But If you read history, you will see that it is better to have few militarily conflicts taking place once few years (in order to let steam out -sort of speak) than to have an all blown out World War.

RIP Ronald Reagan. RIP Lady Thatcher. RIP Pope JP II . They defeated the evil Soviet Union. Sadly, King Obama revived it.

Hillary C. in 2016, y'all.

Centaurus, I think you summed it up quite nicely. Teddy Roosevelt had it right when he said, "Walk softly, but carry a big stick". Obama does just the reverse. Talks a bunch but has no balls. The reality is that many of the members here castigated both Daydreamer41 and myself because of our warnings of what was to come. Just like they rebuked my warnings on CF and other misadventures going all the way back to the dog-board. Unfortunately these liberal girlimen like to talk big, but get very quiet when the truth becomes apparent (or they just keep changing the subject). Obama has three more years to really screw things up. Look what he's done in just 5 years.

Merlot, to say this is a merely Russian Historical issue is a cop-out. Had the U.S. continued to follow the Reagan Ideals the Eastern Bloc Countries would have looked completely different by now. You keep blabbering that pablum right into a new "Cold War".

Rand Paul in '16!!!!

This will be my only post on this subject as I don't intend on wasting more time with those that will never learn.

 

[CWipes]

Here is how I combine Ukranian/Russian relations with merb.

Bree Olson's maternal grandparents were Ukrainians. I'd love to hear what she thinks on this matter personally.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bree_Olsen

But Russia invading Ukraine (2014), is like Russia invading the former Czechoslovakia (1968), is like Iraq invading Kuwait (1990), is like Russia invading Georgia (2008), is like China invading Taiwan, is like US invading Cuba.

In this case, I think Ukraine really needs the support of it's closest East European neighbors & former soviet block republics: Belarus, Poland, Romania, Georgia (etc).

 

[Guido]

Yes, sounds similar to Iraq & Afganistan, among others, but with a MUCH smaller price tag in lives & dollars when it comes to US perspective, no?

There are no good wars. War is HELL and mankind is always worse off for it.

 

[Siocnarf]

Evil Soviet Union... I heard everything. Thanks the soviet union you don't speak german today. Thanks the 25 millions who died in WW2. The Soviet Union may rise from the ashes... but did it ever died?

Stalin killed even more people than Hitler. Between 2 and 7 millions only with the planned famine of 1932-33 in Ukraine. Not bad just for a couple of years.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor

 

[simonpaul]

Every body be ready for a shap decline on Wall Street if the situation become out of control and a war begin.The drop will be at least 10%.

 

[Aka]

I was born and grew up in eastern europe...at what would be the equivalent of Montreal-Toronto in terms of distance from Crimea..so I know the area and the people very well: eastern Ukrainians and especially Crimean people are hardcore Russians...they want nothing to do with the west..and now Kiev. Kiev does not represent their interests anymore, they are actually targeting and threatening the Russian nationals.
As Kiev is radicalizing and getting more courageous now that it has the support from the EU/US/Canada..Crimea asked for Russian support. It does not surprise me one bit as the east will never go along with the EU rhetoric ...Crimeans want them there, Russia has the largest naval military base in the Black Sea and an overwhelming support from the locals. They are securing the area because they were ASKED TO by the people. It is not an invasion and they are not advancing into places where they do not have the local support. 700.000 Ukrainians fled to Russia in the last 2 months alone asking for help...and we are telling them to stay out of it??
Whoever expects Russia to give up that strategic/militarized location at their doorsteps and convert the 90% pro-Russia Eastern Ukrainian people to pro-EU/US views are kidding themselves.
Russians are not the softest people and they will not back off an inch unless they get a what they want or at least a good compromise. They despise being told what to do and and do not take threats very well especially from the West..
The only hope is for EU/US to come to their senses and not force Russia's hand..take a chill pill and wait the elections. My predictions are that the results will be reversed..big support for EU in western Ukraine (but less than what you might expect) and overwhelming support for Russia in the east.

 

[Red Paul]

... anyone rooting for Putin is either too stupid to realize what type of person he is and is getting blinded by his bare hunting chest, or is against democracy and freedom.

Too true. Always amazes me how people will praise the guy -- they just don't have the facts.

 

[Halloween Mike]

What's wrong with speaking German?

That was a way of speaking, in wich i meant would it not had been from the Soviets, we may had been invaded by the Nazis once they where done with the europe. Maybe USA would had stand and win it anyway, but they where also occupied with Japan. Even tough it may not had been from the noblety of there heart, the Soviets are the reason why the Nazis where defeated.

Stalin killed even more people than Hitler. Between 2 and 7 millions only with the planned famine of 1932-33 in Ukraine. Not bad just for a couple of years.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor

Got to admit this is a little more unclear than the Nazis Jewish Genocide tough.... Even the article can't be that precise.

 

[Siocnarf]

Yes, but that's just one example. Planned famine was his way of dealing with various rebellions in the USSR. It's debatable what constitutes a ''genocide'' but killing people is killing people. The Katyn massacre is another example. It was a planned extermination to kill the leading force of Poland and leave the population without leadership. The Polish people hate the Soviets as much as the Nazis.

Anyway for the present situation I don't know that much, but it's true there is a lot of pro-Russians in the east of Ukraine.

 

[hungry101]

Shark and scionarf....You just made my heart sink about the market. I had a limit order in with a very aggressive target...that aint going to happen. I hope calmer heads can prevail and we can settle this.

Halloween Mike - It was so nice to meet you. One of my other hobbies is military history. I was just reading about Poland's contributions to the war effort in WWII. They just happened to have a WWII special on the history channel yesterday when I returned from Montreal about the same subject. I'm not sure if I completely understand this but the Soviet Union can claim 25 MM dead during WWII because during their counteroffensive against Germany the Soviets conquered so much territory and so many satellite states that they held onto after the war that they took credit for their dead. Also, it is unclear how many people that they killed themselves via the KGB or sent off to the gulags to be worked to death systematically... They often attacked in human waves with criminal battalions in the lead followed by KGB with machine guns. Also, Stalin had ordered the attack of Berlin from three directions which caused a crossfire killing so many of his own men needlessly so that there would be no single hero general that could claim to have been the conqueror of Berlin. this could have lcreated a political rival.

Maybe the greatest treachery of Stalin was the non-aggression pact he signed with his buddy Hitler prior to WWII and the co-invasion of Poland. When the Germans attacked Poland from the West the Russians attacked Poland from the east. Polish infantry officers were taken to the rear under false pretenses and murdered in the Katyn Forest by the KGB. The Soviets blamed the Germans for this until Glasnost. The Poles that were left in the Russian half of Poland lived in horror of the Soviets. If you were the police chief, a land owner, teacher...most often you disappeared never to be seen again. The book quotes a 16 year old in his boyscout uniform during the double envelopment of Poland. He was shipped off to the gulag for being in a boy scout uniform. He was sent off to a soviet gulag to be worked to death and systematically killed with the other Poles. The only thing that saved these Poles in Eastern Poland with Operation Barbarossa. Stalin made a deal with the west to allow the Poles in the gulag to form infantry battalions...many walked 1000 miles to join a Polish unit...they had to be nursed to health before they could fight.

Later during the great Soviet counter offensive, Stalin put the breaks on just outside Warsaw to let the Nazi's quell the Polish uprising that was started by the Polish underground. It was supposed to be coordinated with the Soviet advance on Poland. Stalin wanted to make sure that The Polish AK were all killed off prior to entering Warsaw so there were no pro-western forces left after the war. After the War the Soviets offered to set up a new Polish government. they called for polish leaders in exile to return to Poland to set up the post war government. All that came were put to the sword in another Soviet act of treachery.

I think that 2-7 million is a vast understatement. I understand that Uncle Joe is only second to Chairmen Mao who holds the record of 50 Million killed. The people of the Ukraine hate the Soviets.

 

[centaurus]

The Budapest Memorandum ....

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...nvaded-Ukraine-difficult-avoid-going-war.html

The credibilities and honors of the US and Great Britain are on the line. They put their legal signatures on a piece of paper pledging they will uphold the territorial integrity of Ukraine in case it gives up its nukes. The stability of the entire world for centuries to come is at stake...

How would the current leaders of the US and Great Britain react?. Will they save the world or destroy it?. I know exactly what Reagan and Thatcher in the 80's would have done. Not so sure about the current 'leaders'.

 

[Octavian]

Hey hungry101, here is a movie that you should definitely watch :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VhGfCTA_6wA

 

[wasisname]

Evil Soviet Union... I heard everything. Thanks the soviet union you don't speak german today. Thanks the 25 millions who died in WW2. The Soviet Union may rise from the ashes... but did it ever died?

Der fuq?

So if Paul Bernardo happens to save a decent honest guard from being killed he is no longer evil? You can beat a 90 year old woman to death for pocket change but you arn't bad if you save a drowning kid?
For reals?
Suggesting that the Soviet Union isn't evil because they took a slogging in WWII is beyond ignorent. That or I don't think evil means what you think it means.

Never mind this. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molotov–Ribbentrop_Pact

Also I'd like to see how well they would have done without the Lend Lease.
Without the Brits keeping a good portion of the German Air Force in the west as well as significant ground forces in Norway and France [granted many but not all second rate but still useful for partisan suppression and industrial work.
Or without the Yugoslav and Greek sucking up ground troops [the former never would have turned to the allies and the latter probably would have caved without Britian.
And keeping Spain and Turkey Neutral.
And keeping the Japanese focuses on a southern strategy.

As for not speaking German in Canada. I think I will thank the Atlantic Ocean and Germanys weak ass navy which made it never anything close to an issue for the USN and the RN to solve.

 

[man77777]

Evil Soviet Union... I heard everything. Thanks the soviet union you don't speak german today.

You need to read some books, young man.

There are subjects you can talk about without knowing anything on it like sport, and there are things you just can't like the History of a country that made millions of victims. Why ? Just to respect the truth and the dead people.

But I agree that the actual Russia is not the Evil described on occidental newspapers. They just have an agressive geopolitical strategy, exactly like the USA or China, nothing more, nothing less.

 

[man77777]

Btw, I must say I find funny the way people are now sending wikipedia links about serious matter like if it was a reliable source...

 

[man77777]

And to answer to the original question : Why Nobody 's talking about Ukraine in here ?

My answer : Cause North American just care about North America.

 

[IamNY]

Found this to be interesting, it was mentioned on CNN NOT Fox News: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1409sXBleg

 

[Siocnarf]

I think that 2-7 million is a vast understatement. I understand that Uncle Joe is only second to Chairmen Mao who holds the record of 50 Million killed. The people of the Ukraine hate the Soviets.

That number is just for the 1932 famine. If I remember correctly, the total estimate for the Soviet Union is 20-30 millions. 50 millions in China. Only 2 millions in Cambodia, but that' a third of the population worked to death in the Killing Fields (there's a good movie with John Malkovitch based on the book of the same name).

 

[wasisname]

Btw, I must say I find funny the way people are now sending wikipedia links about serious matter like if it was a reliable source...

Reliable enough for the likes of an internet forum. If you think I am going to go to a library to get proper citations of books and journal articles you are daft.

But hey if you don't think the Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact or the Holodomor are actual things without more significant references you are not in a position to be judging anyone.

 

[man77777]

Nothing against you wasiname.

But Wikipedia is not a reliable source. So IMO, we can't take it as a proof or reference even in an internet forum.

(About Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact, Vizulis' book is a good reference)