20/20 covers prostitution (~1.5 hours)

random_guy · Apr 10, 2008

z/m(Ret) · Apr 10, 2008

Are you also an abolitionist?

Thanks, R_G, for opening this thread. The report shows once more that there is a problematic side to prostitution that can't just be ignored

korbel · Apr 10, 2008

LeGuy said:
Thanks a lot,

I just started watching and so far it fits perfectly to what I witnessed. I think everybody pretending to be interested in helping or simply understand SPs should watch this. I don't pretend that all SPs are the same, of course there are exceptions, but we have to recognize that a many SPs are not "happy campers"

Hello LeGuy,

"Not happy campers"...hmmm...well...I just watched the first two episodes. While these first parts of the expose are ostensibly about the harsh and tragic lives of prostitutes, I can't help the gnawing feeling of being exposed myself. No I am no charactering hobbyists as victimizers, But, I remember a lunch with several other hobbyists where we gave advice to a newby as to whether or not he should start hobbying. When what was said to him is summed up we sounded like we were basically as compelled to this lifestyle as the ladies with our own regrets and sad compulsions...but certainly without the harshest consequences the ladies face...in most cases. Oh yeah, some guys can just enjoy it. I don't think it's that simple for most. But enough of the hobbyists. It's a very depressing film to watch and see so vividly what the women go through; such a damn sight worse than any hobbyist. "Not happy campers"...well...there's a prize understatement.

Somberly,

Korbel

korbel · Apr 10, 2008

LeGuy said:
Korbel,

I totally agree about having understated my description. Some people here seem to have an agenda I still don't understand. If I would have written what I thought you bet some people would started saying that they are happy doing this, and so on. I agree that some SPs are OK with their jobs but I also know that some SPs are the very predictable consequence of very sad events

Hello LeGuy,

Unlike that great guru of SP suffering, GG, it's obvious just given the differences of individual human tastes that not all SPs feel the same. I leave absolutes to those who want to play god. But surely the percentage of truly "happy hookers" is exceedly small.

not god,

Korbel

azzaro · Apr 10, 2008

Hey if we are talking about sexually backward USA, then nothing surprises me. Legal prostitution like in Germany and Holland and Australia is so much better than uncontrolled prostitution. Of course criminal elements are going to take advantage of this in the USA ; The high end hookers in USA.. they are the ones taking advantage of the system charging thousands of dollars for a simple fuck (many such cases in news these days). Such high end american hookers would not fly any other place. Girls are also influenced by certain types of guys in thier teens from television movies and music world and don't realize the darker side of guys in these industried that comes with a lotta money (drugs, violence). On top of that media constantly bombards males and females with thier version of what "sexy" is without telling them how to be socially and culturally responsible sexually.

bumfie · Apr 10, 2008

As for "happy hookers," well, I don't know. I must agree with Korbel that the percentage is probably pretty small. I would guess there might be a higher percentage of truly happy SPs in Canada than in the U.S., where there are severe attitudinal and legal issues for both SPs and clients.

But it's in no way possible for those of us on this side to know. An SP who is good at her job comes to our room and acts as if she is having a good time. That is part of her job if she does it well, and if she does it well she will give the same impression no matter how offputting the client might be, whether it's a movie star or the vomiting fat guy Mr. Creosote from "The Meaning of Life."

So who knows whether they are happy? Do they really know you after spending an hour or two with you? Are you the same with an SP as you are with a regular date, or with your wife, or with your co-workers? Would you like to see an SP who brought her real life into the hotel room with her?

She is paid, in part, to seem happy to be there and happy with her job. Is she really? What I try to do as a client is to be respectful and kind, which to me is far more important than any delusional attempts I read about on this board where clients see how many times they can "make them come" (ha, ha).

Can you tell if your mechanic likes his job? Of course you can't. Maybe he does, and maybe he doesn't. The best we can do is treat them well and hope that helps make up for some of the assholes they meet.

Does your grocery clerk like her job just because she is smiling? Probably not, and she doesn't have to suck your cock after you check out. But pretending she likes it is part of the clerk's job, and one can only hope she doesn't spend an hour every day pondering whether to go to work or kill herself. I can only hope the same for the charming women I have met, and likewise for the clearly troubled few whom I have seen.

The world of "hobbying" is an illusion and can't be considered anything else.
We know even less about them than they know about us, guys. We're not being paid to perform while the hotel clock is ticking.

korbel · Apr 10, 2008

azzaro said:
Hey if we are talking about sexually backward USA, then nothing surprises me. Legal prostitution like in Germany and Holland and Australia is so much better than uncontrolled prostitution. Of course criminal elements are going to take advantage of this in the USA ; The high end hookers in USA.. they are the ones taking advantage of the system charging thousands of dollars for a simple fuck (many such cases in news these days). Such high end american hookers would not fly any other place. Girls are also influenced by certain types of guys in thier teens from television movies and music world and don't realize the darker side of guys in these industried that comes with a lotta money (drugs, violence). On top of that media constantly bombards males and females with thier version of what "sexy" is without telling them how to be socially and culturally responsible sexually.

Hello Azzaro,

Yet, just imagine the negative opportunities in a legalized prostitution system and the possibility of using a legalized system to cover for trafficking in sex slaves. Not that it can't happen anywhere, but can't you just see the slave masters drooling at the prospect of injecting his women, controlled by fear and various addictive influences to induce submission, under the umbrella of legalized business where the burden of law enforcement is not to prove there is an exchange of money for sex, but to prove whether the lady is forced into it. While the alleged explosion of sex slaves at the World Cup in Germany may have been heavily exaggerated, the reported growth is sex slave trafficking worldwide has been called the ultimate reselling industry where the same individual "product" can be sold endlessly. Now tell me why a legalized prostitution system wouldn't be a boon to this TERROR!

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/slaves/

"How five women from the struggling countries of Eastern Europe were tricked into sexual slavery, beaten by traffickers and pimps, forced to work to turn a profit -- and finally escaped. Plus, a convicted Ukrainian sex trafficker talks about the multibillion dollar sex trade business, and why he sold an acquaintance for $1,000."

Frightening,

Korbel

korbel · Apr 10, 2008

bumfie said:
As for "happy hookers," well, I don't know. I must agree with Korbel that the percentage is probably pretty small. I would guess there might be a higher percentage of truly happy SPs in Canada than in the U.S., where there are severe attitudinal and legal issues for both SPs and clients.

But it's in no way possible for those of us on this side to know. An SP who is good at her job comes to our room and acts as if she is having a good time. That is part of her job if she does it well, and if she does it well she will give the same impression no matter how offputting the client might be, whether it's a movie star or the vomiting fat guy Mr. Creosote from "The Meaning of Life."

So who knows whether they are happy? Do they really know you after spending an hour or two with you? Are you the same with an SP as you are with a regular date, or with your wife, or with your co-workers? Would you like to see an SP who brought her real life into the hotel room with her?

She is paid, in part, to seem happy to be there and happy with her job. Is she really? What I try to do as a client is to be respectful and kind, which to me is far more important than any delusional attempts I read about on this board where clients see how many times they can "make them come" (ha, ha).

Can you tell if your mechanic likes his job? Of course you can't. Maybe he does, and maybe he doesn't. The best we can do is treat them well and hope that helps make up for some of the assholes they meet.

Does your grocery clerk like her job just because she is smiling? Probably not, and she doesn't have to suck your cock after you check out. But pretending she likes it is part of the clerk's job, and one can only hope she doesn't spend an hour every day pondering whether to go to work or kill herself. I can only hope the same for the charming women I have met, and likewise for the clearly troubled few whom I have seen.

The world of "hobbying" is an illusion and can't be considered anything else.
We know even less about them than they know about us, guys. We're not being paid to perform while the hotel clock is ticking.

Hello Bumfie,

This connection has been made over and over, and it has some sense to it. But, I doubt that any "regular job" is as intimately (physically and emotionally) invasive or as potentially degenrative as a more typical prostitution situation.

Still, I think your point was the front people in any area put on that keeps outsiders from knowing the truth. Certainly, the act of the SP must be one of the most difficult to penetrate, especially since the client typically has no wish at all to break the illusion due to his lustful intent.

Apples and oranges,

Korbel

azzaro · Apr 10, 2008

It is the exception, not the rule (about forced into prostitution) in Europe. It is very liberal sexually there compared withe USA. Former Easten european countries and women there were and are taken advantage of by local pimps there and americans alike (Most of the porn USA consumes, sometimes called porn nation in the rest of the world) is produced in eastern european countries for USA market. USA was supposed to ease the transition from communism to capitalism by educating eastern european countries and Russia; Instaead USA takes advantage of thier lack of expertise in capitalism by such things as porn production (50 billion dollar industry).

bumfie · Apr 10, 2008

I can't deny that, Korbel. It is hard to compare prostitution to any other job, and as you point out any attempt to do so winds up being tortured, as mine did.

As I said, we are not expected to blow the boss every hour, at least literally, and for that we can be thankful.

I guess my bottom line is that the best we can do as long as we participate in this business is to treat the providers well.

korbel · Apr 10, 2008

azzaro said:
It is the exception, not the rule (about forced into prostitution) in Europe. It is very liberal sexually there compared withe USA. Former Easten european countries and women there were and are taken advantage of by local pimps there and americans alike (Most of the porn USA consumes, sometimes called porn nation in the rest of the world) is produced in eastern european countries for USA market. USA was supposed to ease the transition from communism to capitalism by educating eastern european countries and Russia; Instaead USA takes advantage of thier lack of expertise in capitalism by such things as porn production (50 billion dollar industry).

Hello Azzaro,

Not much disagreement with this general statement, but to imply it was the specific burden you cite of the US to accomplish this is wrong, even if some arrogant politcally over-zealous Americans have promoted such a thing. But I don't think the American sex industry has exploited Eastern Europe for porn any more than the sexually liberal mindset of the Western European industry would have (and has) otherwise or that anything would be different if the US did not exist.

Truly,

Korbel

azzaro · Apr 10, 2008

Korbel said:
Hello Azzaro,

Not much disagreement with this general statement, but to imply it was the specific burden you cite of the US to accomplish this is wrong, even if some arrogant politcally over-zealous Americans have promoted such a thing. But I don't think the American sex industry has exploited Eastern Europe for porn any more than the sexually liberal mindset of the Western European industry would have (and has) otherwise or that anything would be different if the US did not exist.

Truly,

Korbel

Everyone does thier part in western europe to help eastern european countries after the fall of communism. They DO NOT take a major advantage of the situation like americans are doing. Western Europeans bring tourist money to help them and employ and train them (like in germany, free education for all in the EU).USA does neither!.Thousands of women have fallen prey to sexual deviants money-hungry wolves from the USA by pushing in the porn industry and eventually prostitution (produced for the USA). The coercive techniques used are very subliminal and look legitimate since they are done by "americans-the heroes of freedom"..the biggest misquote of the century, now being realised slowly by Western and to some extent eastern europe.

korbel · Apr 10, 2008

azzaro said:
Everyone does thier part in western europe to help eastern european countries after the fall of communism. They DO NOT take a major advantage of the situation like americans are doing. Western Europeans bring tourist money to help them and employ and train them (like in germany, free education for all in the EU).USA does neither!.Thousands of women have fallen prey to sexual deviants money-hungry wolves from the USA by pushing in the porn industry and eventually prostitution (produced for the USA). The coercive techniques used are very subliminal and look legitimate since they are done by "americans-the heroes of freedom"..the biggest misquote of the century, now being realised slowly by Western and to some extent eastern europe.

lol Azzaro,

Well, so your assertion is Europeans are motivationally and ethically clean while Americans are subtle parasites. You imply human nature and action in Europe does fall into the most common foibles and faults of all human character throughout history. This is the same people who descended from those who perpetuated incessant fratricidal wars for thousands of years culminating in two catastrophic World Wars and a Nazi terror that even processed humans for soap; and gave us such institutions as the a feudal system of God sanctified monarchs over the people as virtual slaves, the Inquisition and exported their high Christian ideals to nearly exterminate the early peoples of the Western Hemisphere in their lust for land, gold, and glory in the cause of "GOD!" What a stinking CROCK!!!!! Get off your ranch and stop walking behind the bull stuff because you are full of it. Really, your blatant anti-American myopia is now so obviously exposed it isn't worth exchanging with you. The real fault of Americans is they are no different from THEIR ANCESTORS...MOSTLY EUROPEANS.

Too-da-loo buddy,

Korbel

azzaro · Apr 10, 2008

haha..to you too buddy. Why don't to stick to the thread and answer actual questions and discuss things rationaly on the given topic instead of bringing prehistoric stuff in it ( you might even be a prehistoric relic yourself to be not able to take a bit of insight into what goes on post communist era). You have food on your table and sleep good at night, but not east europeans and russians because of american rambings about Communist-evil empires . Reagan: "Bring down this wall." and Cuba which has 10 times better health care than the US. Arrogance will get you no where buddy...not in this world at this date and time. Ciao. Easten Europeans will turn against americans in the near future, take my word for it@!

korbel · Apr 10, 2008

azzaro said:
haha..to you too buddy. Why don't to stick to the thread and answer actual question instead of bringing prehistoric stuff in it ( you might even be a prehistoric relic yourself to be not able to take a bit of insight into what goes on post communist era). You have food on your table and sleep god at night, but not east europeans and russians because of american rambings about Communist-evil empires . Reagan: Brind down this wall. and Cuba which has 10 times better health care than the US. Arrogance will get you now where buddy...not in this world at this date and time. Ciao. Easten Europeans will turn against americans in the near future, take my word for it@!

Get it straight Azzaro,

You are generalizing in stereotypes like a real hater. I could not stand any of the utter stinking festering crap you refer to in this post above. Screw freaking Ronald dipstick. Hated the asshole so damn much and all he said. So you wrote ignorantly when trying to characterize me. But I won't bother to ask where you are from. It is obvious you are just so much YOU...very sadly.

bigot,

Korbel

azzaro · Apr 10, 2008

Hey don't get personal buddy.Where am I from..thats what culturally ignorant americans ask everybody don't they. Did I ask you where you are from. You cannot comprehend or discuss the big picture on post communist era and what amerians have done to mess it up and still are doing so. It is no secret. Eastern europe is not in your back yard, so why should americans bother. Thats the american policy to date for the past 50 years. If you can't feel the misery of other people, then empathize and corect, then you, sir, are no intellectual.

korbel · Apr 10, 2008

Hey Azzaro,

azzaro said:
Here.. they make movies based on a "video lost with sex on it..gotta get it back" formulas and in europe last german PM has had many women publicly that he screwed and oh yeah Italian PM amused himself one day by jokingly humping a postal lady on the street without her knowing it as she was delivering mail and he was exiting a building (it was on youtube and Italian TV, he grabbed her ass lightly and pretended to do her doggie standing up).Here is the link for the youtube video ==> http://youtube.com/watch?v=hE7m15l3XiA
..and in the US they are debating whether a senator touched or wanted to a guy in the stall next door, Clinton got his rocks off on an intern (no biggie if it was europe). Anybody got any more stories like this about the hguge diffrence b/w here and there?..

azzaro said:
and oh yeah..LOVE PARADE in germany..the biggest (1 million people plus) party in the world...sex is 50% of it..people hump anywhere in a 10 block by 10 block area for 72 hours straight listening to hundreds of bands..every july. Here is the sexy 2006 LOve parade ad/anthem link on youtube==> http://youtube.com/watch?v=XTDu3NbTBjM and the 2007 trailer ==> http://youtube.com/watch?v=5d2QBvUWQHw which was cancelled but no worries..anybody can still get laid very easily anytime in the other dozen or so "fests" around europe..

azzaro said:
yeah..but they still have similiar things in switzerland and Austria next door..and they are called..fuckfests..lol..according to the wikipidia..site..you had the link to...

So this is what you want? This is your view of positive moral behavior? These are your values and goals, to be a sexually hedonistic libertine seriously risking STDs willy nilly with anyone? Are you really proposing that everyone should act this way? This type of lifestyle is not something to emulate, it's disgusting. It's amazing you can commend this deviance and suggest Americans are poisoning Eastern Europe with their brand of the porn industry. It's just a deeper CROCK!

Nuts

Korbel

z/m(Ret) · Apr 10, 2008

LeGuy said:
Korbel,

I totally agree about having understated my description. Some people here seem to have an agenda I still don't understand. If I would have written what I thought you bet some people would started saying that they are happy doing this, and so on. I agree that some SPs are OK with their jobs but I also know that some SPs are the very predictable consequence of very sad events

At some point, LG, we need not to beat around the bush and to call a cat a cat. If the said people are putting such dedicated efforts into denying or minimizing the existence of certain realities, if they are always getting all bent out of shape over the slightest negative comment on the sex trade, the bottom line is they approve and, to some extent, promote the said realities.

AllOverHer · Apr 10, 2008

Let's be honest there's a very ugly side to this profession.

How about the PORNO indusry, how many of these girls have been abused also? So many factors behind all this. I would say it's the same ration as speculated in the 20-20 report.

How many SP are drug free and had a somewhat normal existence without any form of abuse. What would be their take on this.

There's an sp who told that there's 2 kind of customers. The ones that think that she's just a slab of meat and just want get off and there's who do look to connect with her and share a special moment.

Everyone needs some kind of tenderness, even the junkies in street.

What a self centered world we live in after all!

eastender · Apr 10, 2008

Drug Free SPs

AllOverHer said:
Let's be honest there's a very ugly side to this profession.

How about the PORNO indusry, how many of these girls have been abused also? So many factors behind all this. I would say it's the same ration as speculated in the 20-20 report.

How many SP are drug free and had a somewhat normal existence without any form of abuse. What would be their take on this.

There's an sp who told that there's 2 kind of customers. The ones that think that she's just a slab of meat and just want get off and there's who do look to connect with her and share a special moment.

Everyone needs some kind of tenderness, even the junkies in street.

What a self centered world we live in after all!

Drug free SPs.

Did security for community groups and youth athletic associations in the Hochelaga/Maisonneuve/Ville Marie district of Montreal for app nine years in the late 1980's /1990's. Stay in contact with most of the organizations today and nothing has changed.

Virtually all the SWs had a drug problem with crack/cocaine being the main drug of choice. They turned to street prostitution when there was nothing else left. Very few lived to see 25. Those who did not were the rare part-timers who need a few extra dollars to meet the monthly expenses.

An additional problem is that the clients have the same or worse substance problems. So when the two get together and things go wrong, acts of unimaginable violence occur.

20/20 covers prostitution (~1.5 hours)

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