College football fans?

[Joe.t]

"Fellas, name me one quarterback since Steve Young and Brett Favre
(early in career) that were great scramblers and great pocket passers,"

Doug Flutie, the greatest qb to ever play the position bar none, if he was 6'2 instead of 5'9 he would have stayed in the NFL and set all sorts of records, it is too bad that the ignorant NFL rejected him because of his height.

 

[Joe.t]

Sor

Joet
your comment about Doug Flutie is so ridiculous that when i read it i spouted coffee out of my nose and ruined a perfectly good keyboard.

Care to expand ?, also sorry about your keyboard i guess you will just have to buy a new one.

 

[EagerBeaver]

It's definitely a disadvantage to be short at the QB position in the NFL. The fact that Flutie, at 5'9", was even able to play QB in the NFL at all is amazing. I am not sure if there are any other QBs under 6'0" currently on an NFL roster. If there is another guy 5'11" or less on an NFL roster let me know.

Really for an NFL QB if you are not at least 6'2" then you have to be able to do something very well in order to hold down a job. In Flutie's case he can scramble and he also does possess a very strong arm. As Daringly mentioned, the issues with a lack of height, and in particular getting passes batted down by hulking defensive lineman and not having good sightlines to the wide receivers, are going to be significant problems for any shorter QB, and they were for Flutie.

 

[picasso]

Fran Tarkenton is 5'10" and he's in the Hall of Fame. But that was another era and players are now bigger, taller and faster.

 

[picasso]

Excellent,astute post.

Add Trent Dilfer,Akili Smith and Aaron Rodgers(will see but he dropped sharply in the 2005 draft) and you complete the picture.Progressive reads are easier in the college game because beyond maybe one or two players per defence the QB is playing against players who will never play in the pros let alone the NFL.

Thanks eastender for reinforcing my point. Akili Smith might have been the biggest bust of them all: 2nd pick overall and he's not even in the league. Dilfer does have a SB ring with Baltimore but that team won the whole thing because of their awesome, stifling defense with Ray Lewis at his prime.

 

[future canadian]

What do Carr, Harrington and Kyle Boller the QB for the Baltimore Ravens have in common? They were all schooled at the college level by Jeff Tedford, currently the Cal Bears head coach. None of them has done well in the NFL. That's because the Tedford system is unsuitable for the NFL and is only suited for the college level where the game is a lot slower and the QB has more time to make progressive reads while in the pocket. Can't blame it on receivers because Harrington had great receivers to work with. Can't blame it on RB because Boller had Jamal Lewis behind him.

re: Carr. His o-line sucks .. on another team, he would do quite well. And if you think Tedford system is unsuitable for the NFL, try the Leach system (Texas Tech).

 

[picasso]

re: Carr. His o-line sucks .. on another team, he would do quite well. And if you think Tedford system is unsuitable for the NFL, try the Leach system (Texas Tech).

FC,

I don't know the Leach system but it's irrelevant to the argument anyway because the point is how come you have these high first round picks QB flopping so badly in the NFL. Tell me something. Can you name a QB from this Leach system who was drafted high in the 1st round?

 

[HonestAbe]

Look no further...

Most of the greatest QB's(Marino notable exception but he never won a Super Bowl either) to ever play the game were great scramblers. Who can forget Roger "the dodger" Staubach, Heisman trophy winner at Navy who ran like a madman in addition to being an excellent passer. John Elway was an excellent scrambler as well, and Joe Montana was no slouch at escaping heat. In addition to Young and Favre you've got 5 current and future Hall of famers right there who showed the importance of mobility at QB. If you look further back in history you will find other examples of mobile QB's.

While Peyton Manning and Tom Brady are premier quarterbacks, they have found success playing with the most talented teams in the league, in systems designed by the best minds in the game. Michael Vick and Donovan McNabb both are excellent passing quarterbacks as well, with very strong arms, who can also leave defenses chasing a ghost when pressured. Either one could have similar success as Brady or Manning if they stay healthy and their teams surround them with great talent. They spent most of this year injured and had miserable seasons but in recent years they led their respective teams to dominance in the NFC going deep into the playoffs, and McNabb to the Super Bowl AFTER Rush "Junkie" Limbaugh ressurected the race issue. To base judgments on their "success" as QB's on this season alone is utterly ridiculous. They both are still quite young and have many years left to win titles. Between the two of them I will be surprised if at least one doesn't win a title. McNabb nearly did already. To me this argument over "traditional" pocket QB's versus QB's who run when pressured is the politically correct way of bringing up the insane "Black Quarterback" argument.

I'm not calling anyone a racist mind you, just pointing out that like it or not, history shows that running ability is a huge boon for an NFL QB and the QB of the future in the NFL (with rare exceptions) will absolutely have to be able to run, FAST. The game is changing all the time, most notably getting a lot faster, and it is not likely you will see future QB's like Bledsoe or Marino who will drop back three steps and stand motionless. No one is saying that Young is going to go in the NFL and play like he does in college, just like Reggie Bush isn't going to average 200 yards a game rushing and another 100 receiving. The level of competition is just to high for that and as in Vicks case, if you try to do that you will end up getting hurt. The success of an NFL QB falls largely on the coaching staffs shoulders. Allowing a QB like Young to run free would be a misuse of his talent. He needs to be taught the NFL system and how to win throwing the ball but allowed to use his natural ability to run as a safety valve. A safety valve Leinart does not have.

What is indisputable is that Leinart, who resembles Drew Bledsoe(2nd most sacked QB in the NFL this year) in athletic ability, has no where near the cannon of an arm that Bledsoe, or any of the other aforementioned all time greats like Favre, Elway, or Marino had, and remember Marino's offensive lines were the best in the league for most of his career in addition to his lightning quick release which helped him overcome his lack of mobility. Leinart will absolutely have to have a premier Offensive line protecting him in the NFL or he will be no where near as effective as he has been at USC. Consider that Leinart has played on a team which has been absolutely loaded with talent for his entire career. Give him credit for doing what he needed to do but don't doubt for a minute that he won't have any such advantages in the NFL as he enjoyed in college. Young on the other hand will be able to use his athletic ability to compensate for lack of protection. The threat of his running ability will force defenses to be honest when playing him, while against Leinart it will be headhunting season. It will be up to Leinart to pull his own fat out of the fire in the NFL and with little scrambling ability he is bound to end up taking a lot of shots whereas Young on the other hand will break plays open when under pressure and avoid taking lots of abuse. This reality may very well end up placing Leinart in the scrap heap of great college QB's who couldn't run and weren't nearly as effective in the NFL, right alongside Ryan Leaf.

Apparently the general public feels this way too, take this poll and note the results on the last question. 2 to 1 choose Young over Leinart. Surely this vast majority isn't made up of idiots with no knowledge or understanding of the game and what it takes to win. I take it to mean that NFL personell will share this view to some extent.


http://proxy.espn.go.com/chat/sportsnation/polling?event_id=1951

 

[EagerBeaver]

The Link

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/bowls05/news/story?id=2282642

 

[EagerBeaver]

I think the problem is that teams have not figured out exactly how to use these guys. Vick and McNabb in particular have suffered because their roles have not been clearly defined from day 1, but rather have changed. Although McNabb can excuse this past season's performance based on a sport hernia injury and injuries to key players on the Eagles team, Vick's season was sufficiently horrible to raise genuine and legitimate questions about his future as a starting NFL quarterback.

Daringly has mentioned that Culpepper, despite a couple of good seasons, has been hindered by a dramatic and alarming propensity for turning the ball over.

The black quarterback I liked the most who nobody is talking about is Steve McNair. Had he not been wrecked and debilitated by various injuries, I felt as though he had the talent and toughness to be a big winner. It appears, however, that McNair is now completely shot despite having been named NFL co-MVP only 2 years ago.

 

[HonestAbe]

Glad you brought this up.

McNair was another excellent example of a QB who was quite mobile and very successful in the NFL, he came up a couple yards shy of winning the Super Bowl against the Rams.

You further reinforce my point that much of a QB's success falls on the coaching staff. Vick is suffering with injuries and his low completion percentage is due to his coach not reigning him in and making him stick to a game plan. But the truth is that Vick IS the "game plan." Atlanta is catering to fans desire to see a "play of the week" every time he touches the ball. This is totally unfair to Vick whether he realizes it or not. He would be better off to try and throw the ball but like many superstar athletes he feels he can make a big play happen every time he runs the ball.

He needs to look for receivers before tearing off downfield. He has an excellent throwing arm and has no problem getting the ball to his receivers but he also trys to throw while running full tilt a lot of the time due to his always looking for an oppurtunity to break a big one. This isn't nearly as accurate as stopping and setting your feet. He is CAPABLE of being an excellent passer as he has shown at times.

Its important to realize that there is a definite bias amongst many Football fans as to black QB's. Its not even a question, its obvious. Case in point, Eli Manning. My apologies to DudeMtl for bringing up his boy again. Michael Vicks and Eli's numbers are almost identical with neither one having much of an edge over the other in any passing stat. Their QB ratings are nearly identical. Yet the Giants gave up the farm to get Eli based on his name and the notion that "like Brother like Brother." Eli has been the weakest link on an otherwise excellent Giants football team this year. Time after time after time he has thrown INT's at crucial points in the game and missed his receivers every which way you can imagine costing the Giants several wins and making them have to overcome his mistakes to get others. But Daunte Culpepper is the one who we are "alarmed" about? Michael Vick is a "joke?" There is definitely some joking going on here.

The Giants are in the playoffs DESPITE Eli's presence on the field. But you rarely hear anyone question Eli's supposed "talent." You hear much more anticipation actually, about possibly seeing him face his brother Peyton in the Super Bowl this year, almost as if Eli is LEADING the Giants to the promised land. He has yet to prove he is worth all the hype because at this point HYPE is all he is. Michael Vick has a proven 33-21-1 record as a starter for the Falcons and is 2-2 in the playoffs yet right here in this thread we have heard disparaging remark after disparaging remark about him because he had one bad year plagued with nagging injuries that affected his throwing ability. IF there isn't some blatant bias here then the definition needs to be changed.

As to Young and Leinart we are talking about two guys who are very similar statistic wise this year as far as passing goes. Their ratings are within 6 points of each other. The only knock we have heard on Young is his throwing "mechanics." Leinart on the other hand moves like molasses rolling uphill. Both are gifted passers, but Young has an extra gift of speed, agility, and size that has not been seen before in the NFL yet he is somehow viewed as a liability in some peoples minds because of the way he throws the ball? Young has averaged over a thousand yards rushing every year of his collegiate career with 6.84 yards a carry, 37 rushing TD's, and get this, 0 fumbles in 457 career rushing attempts. He's been sacked 32 times in 3 years and most of those have come when he was rolling out of the pocket looking to, imagine this, throw the ball rather than run! Leinart has a remarkable 132 career rushes for -70 yards, yes thats NEGATIVE 70 yards. Take away his 9 career QB sneaks for TD's while being pushed in the back by a teammate and his average is even worse. This doesn't even take into account the fact that Leinart gets sacked twice as much as Young despite having arguably the best offensive line in college football.

But we must give Leinart the benefit of any doubt apparently. Forget the fact that both he and Young threw the ball at a nearly identical 65% completion rate, forget that Young can escape pressure and break big plays or buy time to find a receiver, forget that Young has a stronger arm, forget the performance Young had the other night where he near singlehandedly beat Leinart and USC on the biggest stage in college sports despite all the hype going in the other direction and the doubters dispelling any such chance, forget all that and then maybe you can forget that you are being totally oblivious to the facts and may have a subconcious issue with a black guy being an outstanding QB who should definitely be a top pick in the NFL draft.

 

[Joe.t]

Daringly you know absolutley nothing about football

Flutie is in his 21st season in professional football, including stints in the NFL (1986-89, 1998- Present), the USFL (1985) and the CFL (1990-97). In his pro career, he has thrown for 58,150 yards, a total that ranks third in football history, trailing only Warren Moon (70,325 yards) and Dan Marino (61,361).

Flutie enters the 2005 season having played in 87 career NFL games, including 66 as a starter. He has compiled a starting record of 38-28 (.576), including a 23-9 (.719) mark in home games.

Flutie was a member of the San Diego Chargers from 2001- 04 and served primarily as the backup to Pro Bowler Drew Brees over the last three seasons. He started all 16 games for the first time in his NFL career in 2001 and over the last two seasons (2003-04) has seen action in 10 games with six starts.

Flutie was named to the Pro Bowl in 1998, following a season in which he won Comeback Player of the Year honors from the Associated Press and Pro Football Weekly. In just 10 starts that season, he threw an NFL career high 20 touchdown passes and led the Bills to the playoffs.

Flutie was the primary starter for the Buffalo Bills for two seasons (1998-99) and led Buffalo to the playoffs in both years.

In 1999, Flutie ran for a career-high 476 yards, leading all NFL signal callers in rushing and setting a Buffalo Bills record for single-season rushing yards by a quarterback.

Flutie is in his second tour of duty with New England, having previously been with his hometown team from 1987-89. Over that span, he played in 17 games with 13 starts, compiling an 8-5 (.615) record as a starter.

In 1988, Flutie started nine games for the Patriots, including a stretch where he led the team to six wins in an eight-game span. His efforts earned him the team's “Unsung Hero” award.

Flutie returned to the NFL in 1998 following an eightseason CFL career where he was named the league's most outstanding player a league-record six times. In Canada between 1990-97, he led his teams to three Grey Cup championships and was named Grey Cup MVP following all three victories.

On Nov. 9, 2003, Flutie became the first NFL player over 40 years old to rush for two touchdowns in a game, leading the Chargers to a win over Minnesota. He was named AFC Offensive Player of the Week and FedEx Air NFL Player of the Week for his efforts.

Flutie owns a career record of 12-2 in games he has started in Foxborough, including NFL and college games. He was 5-0 as a starter for the Patriots in Foxborough from 1988-89.

-If flutie made the probowl at 38 i can only guess how many times he would have made it had he not been banished from the nfl because of his height, also if it wasnt for that medaling old fart ralph wilson flutie would have played in the music city miracle and buffalo would have won the game, wilson chose to start a bum and one of the biggest busts in the nfl history as the starter who cost the bills the game, and lets not forget all of the records that flutie set in the cfl where he was the most exciting player to ever play the game hands down, randy cross called flutie the second most exciting player that he ever saw behind barry sanders, i could go on and on but these are some of the facts about flutie.

 

[Joe.t]

"imagine counting his passing yards in the cfl and comparing that in the stats to nfl qb's"

-Where in my post do i say that?
-Just as i thought, you only look at stats and know nothing about flutie other than the few games that you may have seen of him(i even doubt that), stick to hockey buddy.

 

[HonestAbe]

if i have you mixed up with another poster i apoligize in advance but, were you not the one who claimed that he picked an incredible 65% ats in the nfl at the start of the year where people posted their picks.

You'll have to explain to me what "65% ats" stands for before I can deny or admit anything. Currently I have no idea what you are referring too. I did indeed post many picks this year in the weekly NFL threads and had substantial success with my picks. Of course I never used the spread since I prefer to simply pick 'em. As Bryson always points out, its much easier to pick winners than pick with the spread. My picks were always made according to the rule that once they were posted you could not go back and edit that post in any way so as to preserve the integrity of the picks. Check mine out if your interested I'm sure you'll find I had quite a good season.

I never said you were a racist, and no you didn't bring up any race issue. You do make the same points about Young as people who have made racial comparisons as to QB's in the past however did to other "black quarterbacks." I'm not saying you did it on purpose. I'm saying that many people do this without knowing that this is because of disinformation which embeds itself in our subconcious mind. It resonates with some people more than others because of underlying issues with race and there is ample evidence to bear this out.

The fact that Young is a tremendous talent is undeniable. The fact that he and Leinart are very similar as to achievements and statistical numbers as far as passing is easily found by searching ESPN's college football index. The fact that Young has more athletic talent than Leinart is undeniable. The fact that he will have an advantage over Leinart in the NFL because of this is born out by history of other highly mobile QB's and their success. The fact that there are numerous respectable sources within the NFL and close to it who speak in glowing terms of Young, is out there for anyone to see who wants to see it.

That he will be drafted high in the first round is all but a forgone conclusion, even if it isn't number one or two I would eat my shorts if he went lower than number 6(Raiders). He will get a multi-year, multi-million dollar deal from whoever signs him. He may or may not choose to stay in school, we should know within a week. If he does stay he may not be picked number one next year because there is a guy named Brady Quinn from the holiest of all places in college football, Notre Dame, who will be coveted by people who will not give Young his due when comparing the two because they subconciously see "Black QB's" in a negative light.

Thats just the way I see it. I'll take you at your word that you aren't prejudiced towards Young because he is black, rather you just don't like his "throwing mechanics," SO much so in fact, that you think Leinart is a CLEARLY better QB prospect in spite of everything which shows otherwise. I respect your opinion.

 

[Joe.t]

Daringly- Flutie's professional record speaks for itself, it does not need further explanation, people who watched him play know what kind of player he is and that he is the greatest qb to ever play the position including marino, elway, young, montana, manning, kelly etc, better than all of them hands down(my opinion), if he stayed in the prejudice NFL(ask Warren Moon) he would have won many superbowls, made many pro bowls and set all sorts of records and would have made the hall of fame, him being 5'9 denied him that opportunity and anybody that says otherwise is just plain ignorant.

 

[EagerBeaver]

Guys-

I just heard the Mort Report - Chris Mortenson of ESPN, his info is good as anyone's.

He says Vince Young is going pro, the announcement will officially come within days. I have heard some talk that Bush will go #1, Leinart #2 and Young #3 to the Titans, where he would be mentored by Steve McNair. There could be no better mentor in the NFL for Vince Young than Steve McNair, who knows what it takes to succeed in the NFL.

Mort says Marcus Vick will not be drafted until day 2, as there are huge question marks with him. He could be a steal in the lower rounds, but my gut instinct tells me he is a backup QB at the NFL level, if that. He is only 6'0" just like his brother Michael.

 

[Joe.t]

Their loss is our gain, at least us canadians can say that we saw a all time great and one of the most exciting players to ever play the game in his prime, thanks.

 

[HonestAbe]

Doug Williams won a super bowl with the Redskins years ago but this did little to dispel the notion that a black QB couldn't lead a team thru an entire season and to a title since he was seen as just filling in for an injured Joe Theismann. When you say "black quarterback" to any number of football fans there is a definite set of images that goes through their head. Some of them good and some of them bad, but in fact one of those images is of a guy trying to be a running back and taking off down the field which is supposedly a negative attribute despite the fact that any number of white QB's have done the same thing in the past and were viewed as heroes for it. It is also oblivious to the fact that there have been numerous examples of excellent black QB's who threw the ball as well as any of their white counterparts.

Until many people see a black QB lead a team through an entire season and on to a championship they will still harbor doubts in their subconcious, if not outright and openly expressed views. Doubters are not a new thing but when you see it expressed in a way that knocks athletic talents which are rare gifts, such as being big, fast, and agile it is hard not to question whether or not there is some prejudice in play since these characteristics are more often associated with Black men than white men. Not that this is fair either because there are numerous examples of excellent white athletes in the past and present. It seems that some objectivity is missing when someone puts on a performance all season long like Vince Young has just done and then faces off against his primary competition (Leinart) at his respective position in a National championship game, near singlehandedly beats the team that so many said was unbeatable, and then is devalued like old meat in a supermarket display case less than a week after the fact.

Maybe its just me but it just seems ridiculous when all I hear as criticism of Young is his "throwing mechanics" despite his obvious prowess throwing the ball which lead him to a QB rating that ranked #3 in the Nation this year, ahead of Leinart. Also disturbing is that not one person has mentioned "heart" thus far and Young has HUGE heart as evidenced by his performance in the USC game and all season long against other excellent teams like Ohio State. Leinart had everything going in his favor but after the game I heard him say a couple things that could be perceived as denial and/or disrepectful towards the Longhorns, this isn't verbatim but 1) ...We lost the game more than they won it... and 2) ...I still think we are the better team. Why not just "I congratulate Texas, they are an excellent team, we are proud of our performance but just came up a bit short tonight." Seemed like the excuses for their loss were flowing a bit too quickly from their lips after a week when numerous sources quoted derogatory comments coming from the USC camp. Young and the Longhorns seems to have outclassed Leinart and the Trojans as well as outplayed them.

 

[EagerBeaver]

Top 32 NFL Draft Prospects According to Scouts Inc.

1. Reggie Bush Jr. RB USC
2. D'Brickashaw Ferguson Sr. OT Virginia
3. Matt Leinart Sr. QB USC
4. Vince Young Jr. QB Texas
5. Mario Williams Jr. DE N.C. State
6. A.J. Hawk Sr. OLB Ohio State
7. Jimmy Williams Sr. DC Virginia Tech
8. Mathias Kiwanuka Sr. DE B.C.
9. Tamba Hali Sr. DE Penn St.
10. Demeco Ryans Sr. OLB Alabama
11. Vernon Davis Jr. TE Maryland
12. DeAngelo Williams Sr. RB Memphis
13. Chad Greenway Sr. OLB Iowa
14. Jay Cutler Sr. QB Vanderbilt
15. Marcus McNeill Sr. OT Auburn
16. Michael Huff Sr. DB Texas
17. Brodrick Bunkley Sr. DT Florida St.
18. Santonio Holmes Jr. WR Ohio St.
19. Haloti Ngata Jr. DT Oregon
20. Leonard Pope Jr. TE Georgia
21. LenDale White Jr. RB USC
22. Darryl Tapp Sr. DE Virginia Tech
23. Laurence Maroney Jr. RB Minnesota
24. Derek Hagan Sr. WR Arizona St.
25. Max Jean-Gilles Sr. OG Georgia
26. Gaines Adams Jr. DE Clemson
27. Sinorice Moss Sr. WR Miami-Fla.
28. Mercedes Lewis Sr. TE UCLA
29. Chad Jackson Jr. WR Florida
30. Ashton Youboty Jr. DC Ohio St.
31. Orien Harris Sr. DT Miami-Fla.
32. Dee Webb Jr. DC Florida