Does C-36 just made its first victime? MERB ITSELF?

[BookerL]

I am tending to agree with this. I would also think Quebec, generally being the most independent minded of the provinces, would be the last place to expect vigorous enforcement of a federal/national agenda. It's actually a wonderful opportunity for Quebec to make a statement that they don't give a shit about Harper and MacKay and their agendas. These laws will be enforced on a local level and the local LE has it in their power to say "fuck you, this is Quebec and we do things differently here." And they can do that very simply and powerfully by ignoring these agendas.

Even if Quebec is lenient toward sex work ,a promoter that has website across the country must be very vigilant .
A arrest can come from any part of the country most likely where the conservative base is stronger.
After someone is arrested and released on bail what would happen if he would be re arrested for the same allege crime ?
That is the part which is scary !


Regards all



Booker

 

[Siocnarf]

I was told be a friend just this morning that she read a quote from an SPVM spokesman that their focus will continue to be where it's always been: underage and trafficked women.

Correct, plus the nuisance and complains. As mentioned in other threads, the SPVM made their action plan for 2014-2016 already. It seems to be only in french, but here is the info from their English website:

The SPVM identified three main action priorities in respect to prostitution and human trafficking for sexual exploitation purposes. It is committed to prioritizing its interventions in respect to:

1- Sexual exploitation of children for profit (ESEC)
2- Human trafficking for sexual exploitation purposes and procuring and coercion
3- Cohabitation in sensitive neighbourhoods

The SPVM has an action plan to assist victims of sexual exploitation and fight against individuals who exploit them.

 

[EagerBeaver]

One thing that an escort in the U.S. are told by lawyers is too not say no to the question of whether she does Greek if a policeman calls posing as a customer, because the implication is that she does not do anal, but she does oral and vaginal sex. The answer in the U.S. is for the escort to not answer any explicitly questions until the caller is screened.

Services should never be discussed on the phone, nor should they be discussed in person until the client is naked, if the escort is really being prudent. A cop is not going to get naked. But to avoid these shenanigans, some escorts I have met, especially those in Boston, chose the more efficient expedient of asking me to touch breast as soon as she walked into my hotel room. Cops are not going to touch a tit or a pussy. They can't. So as soon as I did, the escort knew I was not a cop and we could talk about services. And if you get asked this question you have to grab the tit in a sexual way, no light caress or anything.

So basically the escort allows the one free feel, which is not a big deal for most experienced escorts. If the client declines, you know he is a cop and you walk right out. If the client "cops" the feel, then you get down to business. It is a simple. easy, effective, and client-friendly mechanism to smoke out the cops.

 

[Doc Holliday]

Services should never be discussed on the phone, nor should they be discussed in person until the client is naked, if the escort is really being prudent. A cop is not going to get naked. But to avoid these shenanigans, some escorts I have met, especially those in Boston, chose the more efficient expedient of asking me to touch breast. Cops are not going to touch a tit or a pussy. So as soon as I did that she knew I was not a cop and we could talk about services.

So basically you allow the free feel, which is not a big deal for most experienced escorts. If the client declines, you know he is a cop and you walk right out. If he cops the feel, you get down to business. It is simple. easy, effective and client-friendly.

Several years ago when a well-known swingers club was busted, it was mentionned in court that the female & male cop who had went undercover actually willingly participated in the shenanigans. The cops even admitted to the defense attorney that they had actually enjoyed themselves during the sex acts while still working undercover. Everyone chuckled in the courtroom upon hearing this and i believe the judge gave his judgement to the defendants upon hearing this.

 

[EagerBeaver]

Most cops cannot legally go this far, and if they are forced to discuss sexual shenanigans like this in court they are viewed as complicit in breaking the law, or as engaged in entrapment that is unreasonable. Defense attorneys lick their fucking chops over this shit. Most prosecutors would have voluntarily dismissed a case like this. In a criminal case a cop cannot appear as though he/she is above the law, is complicit in breaking it or disregarding it, and/or is engaged in entrapment. Most police department have regulations that say no touching of the tit or pussy of a female while on the job even if consensual or requested. It's a sex act. A Connecticut State Police Officer was fired a few years ago for attempting to negotiate a blow job as a way to resolve a female motorist's speeding ticket. He claimed it was consensual. NOT A DEFENSE. Fired.

 

[gugu]

their focus will continue to be where it's always been: underage and trafficked women.

How could it be otherwise? Is there one place in the world where it not so, whatever the regime? In the USA, it's a state legislative and enforcement matter. Repression is probably unevenly distributed. However, from what I read here, any hobbyist can safely pay for sex just about anywhere using common sense protection.

Here, it's federal legislation and provincial enforcement. They have their law but no power what so ever to tell the provinces how to apply it. It going to be 10 provinces, 10 different prosecutors, each working with a number of police services (around 35 in Québec) that are under the province's jurisdiction. It is and has always been a patchwork, just like in the USA. Prostitution is a local issue. And it does not arise as an issue because of a law. It's rooted in the history and is based on set of unwritten rules that maintain a certain equilibrium. No player (sw, clients, intermediaries, prosecutors, LE, health services) has the power to impose his exclusive rules. Each player is strongly motivated to maintain the equilibrium considering the unpredictability of the outcome of just about any strong action.

.

 

[Halloween Mike]

Historically the the term GFE as a marketing tool can be traced to one hobbyist by the name of St. Bart who defined the term on TBD back in around 2003

Lol didn't knew this, so the patron of this business is called Saint-Bart? Great !!!

Services should never be discussed on the phone, nor should they be discussed in person until the client is naked, if the escort is really being prudent. A cop is not going to get naked. But to avoid these shenanigans, some escorts I have met, especially those in Boston, chose the more efficient expedient of asking me to touch breast as soon as she walked into my hotel room.

Touching the breast, sure, but the rest is a nogo for me. I wan to know the extras before booking. I do sometimes book girls with no extras, but the extras are a big incentive on my choices, so i need to know them BEFORE booking to not waste the time of the agency/providers. I also never fully undress(1 exeption only in my years of hobbying) and i do not undress before "heating the motor" because its awkward and make me feel unconfortable. Hope this model never really take ground here.

 

[EagerBeaver]

Halloween Mike,

I think the name comes from the Caribbean Island, not an actual saint.

 

[BookerL]

Hi all and EB

Services should never be discussed on the phone, nor should they be discussed in person until the client is naked, if the escort is really being prudent. A cop is not going to get naked

Actually this was our modus operati in Montreal 20 to 25 years back for incalls LE where busting lots of incall places that where not careful back then .
One event happen which turned out to be more of a joke afterward ,one my ladies calls me whispering saying that the client was carrying a gun .
So I ask her to ask the gentlemen if he had a permit he showed her a badge on which she said was written RCMP !Hummm she was a young 18 years old and didn't know what it was ,told it was ok not worry about it ,needless to say he was already naked and was their for service and not for investigation purposes

But to avoid these shenanigans, some escorts I have met, especially those in Boston, chose the more efficient expedient of asking me to touch breast as soon as she walked into my hotel room. Cops are not going to touch a tit or a pussy. They can't. So as soon as I did, the escort knew I was not a cop and we could talk about services. And if you get asked this question you have to grab the tit in a sexual way, no light caress or anything.

So basically the escort allows the one free feel, which is not a big deal for most experienced escorts. If the client declines, you know he is a cop and you walk right out. If the client "cops" the feel, then you get down to business. It is a simple. easy, effective, and client-friendly mechanism to smoke out the cops.

Other precautions we where taking was to rotate our incalls locations frequently ,to avoid complaints of high gentlemen traffic .
Each of our rooms where also under different names .

New ways will need to be developed for the safety of the clients and like you have summited client friendly mechanism will unveil the cops .



Cheers



Booker

 

[EagerBeaver]

So I ask her to ask the gentlemen if he had a permit he showed her a badge on which she said was written RCMP !Hummm she was a young 18 years old and didn't know what it was ,told it was ok not worry about it ,needless to say he was already naked and was their for service and not for investigation purposes

I should have qualified my statement by saying that a cop will never get naked WHILE ON DUTY. I have known a few cops who were major, major seekers of SP services off duty and many go to the so called "off limits" MPs that are off limits because they donate heavily to police charities - legal, back-door bribery.

 

[BookerL]

I should have qualified my statement by saying that a cop will never get naked WHILE ON DUTY. I have known a few cops who were major, major seekers of SP services off duty and many go to the so called "off limits" MPs that are off limits because they donate heavily to police charities - legal, back-door bribery.

EB
You do have lots of legal expertise, on my side I do have lots of criminal ones !:lol:

Cheers



Booker

 

[daydreamer41]

I have a suggestion for all of you.

You can describe the legal services like dfk and lfk. You can describe her as being affectionate or passionate.

Describe her looks. There is nothing illegal about her looks. There is nothing illegal with being in the company of a beautiful girl.

You should be discrete with the services that are in question in violation of C-36. Just sum up the review with Very Highly Recommended, meaning she is very open. Or Highly Recommended, she is open with maybe a restriction. Or Recommended. She has a couple of restrictions, but nothing taking away from being officially gfe. And Not recommended, we will know there are lots of restrictions that none of us would like. We all know who we may trust for reviews. Use everything as a guideline. If you deal with the highly regarded agencies, you probably will not be disappointed.

In the US, some state governments charged one of the larger board owners with promotion of prostitution through his board. I think it was either bigdoggie.net or TER? Anyhow, LE lost. The courts ruled that the First Amendment right of free speech covered the boards right to take advertisements and board members to discuss whatever, even illegal activities. So it is probably prudent to be discrete because you don't what the RMP will do with this law. I am guessing the RMP are similar to the US's FBI?

 

[EagerBeaver]

It was TBD that won that case but it was badly handled by the prosecutor down there in Florida. There were various constitutional defenses that were used.

 

[BookerL]

I am guessing the RMP are similar to the US's FBI?

Well daydreamer the RCMP or ROYAL CANADIAN MOUNTED POLICE are the feds in Canada .
However in Quebec and Ontario there is Provincial Police ,La Surete du Quebec and OPP .
The RCMP does pivot special task force since they are the FEDS but they do not investigate quite the same way has the FBI .
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Police_Information_Centre
Canadian Police Information Centre
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The Canadian Police Information Centre (CPIC) is the central police database where Canada's law enforcement agencies can access information on a number of matters. It is Canada's only national law enforcement networking computer system ensuring officers all across the country can access the same information. There are approximately 3 million files generated each year and is the responsibility of the originating agency to ensure the data integrity of each file.[1]
CPIC was approved for use by the Treasury Board of Canada and became operational in 1972. It is maintained by the Royal Canadian Mounted Police (RCMP) with the central registry located at the RCMP Headquarters in Ottawa, Canada. CPIC is interfaced with the United States National Crime Information Center and National Law Enforcement Telecommunications System[2] but not all information are shared. For example, Wandering Persons Registry information is not shared across the border.[3]
In order for a government agency to access CPIC, they must agree to abide by the rules set out in the CPIC Reference Manual and be approved by the CPIC Advisory Committee, composed of 26 senior police officers from municipal and provincial police forces, the Ontario Police Commission and the RCMP.[4] Non-policing agencies must also enter a memorandum of understanding with the RCMP and may be audited from time to time for compliance.[2]
CPIC is broken down into four data banks: Investigative, Identification, Intelligence and Ancillary[5] which contain information on:
Vehicles/marine
Stolen or abandoned vehicles/boats
Persons
Wanted persons
People who are accused of crime(s)
People on probation or parolees
Special Interest Police (SIP)
Judicial orders
Access to the Offender Management System of Correctional Service of Canada
Missing persons
Stolen property
Dental characteristics
Canadian Firearms Registry of the Canadian Firearms Program
Wandering Persons Registry
Alzheimer's disease patients who register with the Alzheimer Society of Canada in case they go missing
CPIC criminal surveillance
Criminal intelligence gathered across the country
Criminal Record Synopsis
Condensed information about a person's criminal record
Local, municipal and provincial police services in Canada, as well as federal law enforcement agencies such as the Canada Border Services Agency and Military Police maintain their own local records in addition to CPIC records. Local records are maintained of all contact with police for a variety of reasons, and may or may not contain information that would be entered into the CPIC system. All CPIC agencies are subject to audit on a 4 year cycle. All records added to the CPIC system must satisfy stringent entry criteria in that every record must be, valid, accurate, complete in nature and compliant with input rules. The province of British Columbia is mandated by law that all police forces share a platform, known as PRIME-BC. In Ontario local records are now kept in systems known either as NICHE or Versadex, depending on the Municipalities choice of implementation. In Quebec the system used is called CRPQ (Centre de Reseignement des Policiers du Québec). The RCMP runs a similar system called PROS (Police Reporting Occurrence System) in provinces where they are providing contract policing as well for federal policing.

In certain Places the RCMP is the city cops Provincial Police and Federal.
It is the Case where I live In Surrey B.C.


Cheers



Booker

 

[BookerL]

One aspect I could see changing though, is when an agency or provider responds within a thread to a specific review - as it then could establish the veracity of the encounter, and that the provider/agency is indeed providing sexual services, or aiding in their provision.

Hi all

In criminal law not only they need to prove that a crime was committed but also by who ?
All of this without anymore reasonable doubt .
If they cannot prove without reasonable doubt who responded ,example a Internet cafe IP,they need evidence so anything that creates reasonable doubt can provide acquittal or dismissal .Onus of proof lies on LE and the crown .
Presumption of innocence puts a heavy burden when you know how to use it


A not guilty verdict was never proof of innocence :thumb:
Ah legal technicalities you got to lovem !:lol:
Cheers


Booker

 

[EagerBeaver]

A lot of people don't realize bow often the prosecutor's office and LE are not on the same page. I have a good friend who is FBI in NYC and he is constantly complaining to me that he deals with younger US attorneys who are pussies that are afraid to try cases lest they piss off the high powered defense firms that want a favorable deal from them. The US attorneys are not paid as much as the white collar defense firms and they are all jockeying to eventually get jobs with those firms. It's an evil conflict of interest and the result is that criminals (usually in bank and insurance fraud cases) get much more favorable deals than what they should be getting based on the facts and evidence in the case.

This is more of a problem in cities like NYC whereas like Patron said the small town DAs in the state courts worry about budgetary considerations and artificial stretching of their dockets when they have cases like this dumped on them. Sometimes expert witnesses are needed on forensics and it costs a lot of money although if it is the Chief State Medical examiner you can get him for free as part of his job duties. I took the deposition of a chief state medical examiner who was an expert in gunshot wound trajectories and ballistics. These people live in labs and autopsy rooms 24/7/365.

The TBD case relied on a ton of witnesses and the court imposed deadlines for discovery which were blown as I recall. The state's attorneys offices usually have one investigator and their staff was undoubtedly deluged. Plus they have their regular docket of cases that they are not free to ignore. It's a real pain in the ass to take on a case like this. And I think that the constitutional defenses did have merit, experts said so and the prosecutor may have known he was going down and it was better to go down by this type of dismissal then to go down on the merits in court. I have had to go to court a few times where I knew it was better than 50% I was going down but that does not relieve the anger and frustration if you care about what you are doing. And in those cases I went down due to Judge rulings on evidence which I knew were going to be against me because of the way that judge had ruled in the past, but knowing that doesn't help you much except in shaping how to argue the issue.

 

[StefanoUS]

There is nothing in C-36 that prevents describing sexual encounters online. As TER claims, the reviews can even be viewed as "fiction", "entertainment", and "amusement"; in other words, erotic literature.

reverdy, I'm not sure what Ter "claims" as fiction on their website is relevant in a U.S. court of law. If you know about the Aphrodite Companions bust, the case was substantiated and built around the reviews of Provider #1 and Provider #2. I've read the indictment a few times. Ter immediately took down the reviews of all AC providers! That's very telling for something that's supposedly just fiction.

Would prosecutors follow up and bring reviewers into court to testify? Probably not, but ....

The AC owners are in the slammer. Of course money laundering charges really did them in and triggered the initial investigation.

 

[EagerBeaver]

But a lot of posters do overstate the case, since the Constitutional issues were never really ruled on by the court. As StefanoUS says, none of us really know how protected we are when we do a review on a US review board.

I think a lot of constitutional experts felt the constitutional defenses were meritorious. There is powerful jurisprudence in the US including the explosive Hustler v. Falwell case which takes an expansive view of the First Amendment. Some years ago I defended a client in a defamation case where the key defense we had hinged on the Hustler case which erects a very heavy burden to prove defamation against a public figure. It's arguable that some of the same doctrines can be used to protect speech in other contexts.

I don't know what the law is in Canada on these issues and whether Canadians have a constitutionally protected right to free speech which might be extended to reviews of escorts. It may be that there are better legal defenses in the USA based on not only federal but state constitutional laws. In Connecticut we have a whole body of state constitutional law which both overlaps and extends federal protections. I don't know what exists in Quebec.

 

[BookerL]

True, but I see this more as a problem for the provider who, according to C-36 is immune from prosecution - but not necessarily from apprehension (and harassment from LE); and especially for the agency, since it can be used as part of an investigation to establish that it is a third party - an offence according to C-36 (section 286.2 - Material benefits, 286.4 - advertising, and possibly even 286.3 - procuring). They are much easier to identify than the client.
.

Hi Reverdy and all
The new law is new grounds what is not is the notion of reasonable doubt in Canadian Criminal Law

https://www.cjc-ccm.gc.ca/english/lawyers_en.asp?selMenu=lawyers_pmf_generalprinciples_en.asp
Home > For Lawyers and Judges > Jury Instructions > Model Jury Instructions > Preliminary, Mid-Trial and Final Instructions > 9. General Principles
9. GENERAL PRINCIPLES

9.1 Presumption of Innocence

(Last revised February 2004)

[1] Every person charged with an offence (or, NOA) is presumed to be innocent, unless and until the Crown has proved his/her guilt beyond a reasonable doubt.

[2] The indictment tells you and NOA what offence the Crown alleges against NOA. The charge is not evidence. It is not proof of guilt.

[3] The presumption of innocence lasts throughout the trial. This presumption only ceases to apply if, at the end of the case and on the whole of the evidence, the Crown has proved beyond a reasonable doubt that NOA is guilty of the crime charged.

9.2 Burden of Proof[1]

(Last revised February 2004)

[1] The person charged (or, NOA) does not have to present evidence or prove anything in this case, in particular, that s/he is innocent of the offence charged.

[2] From start to finish, it is the Crown who must prove the guilt of NOA beyond a reasonable doubt. You must find NOA not guilty of the (an)[2] offence unless the Crown proves beyond a reasonable doubt that he/she is guilty of it.

9.3 Reasonable Doubt[3]
(R. v. Lifchus)

(Last revised February 2004)

[1] The principle of “proof beyond a reasonable doubt” is an essential part of the presumption of innocence.

[2] A reasonable doubt is not a far-fetched or frivolous doubt. It is not a doubt based on sympathy or prejudice. It is a doubt based on reason and common sense. It is a doubt that arises at the end of the case based not only on what the evidence tells you but also on what that evidence does not tell you.

[3] It is not enough for you to believe that NOA is probably or likely guilty. In those circumstances, you must find him/her not guilty, because the Crown would have failed to prove his/her guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. Proof of probable or likely guilt is not proof of guilt beyond a reasonable doubt.

[4] You should also remember, however, that it is nearly impossible to prove anything with absolute certainty. The Crown is not required to do so. Absolute certainty is a standard of proof that does not exist in law.

[5] If, at the end of the case, and after an assessment of all of the evidence, you are not sure that NOA committed the (an) offence, you must find him/her not guilty.

[6] If, at the end of the case, based on all of the evidence, you are sure that NOA committed the (an)[4] offence, you should find NOA guilty.

especially for the agency, .

What is a escort agency ?
Contrary to any businesses that advertises you cannot find them at Quebec registrar of enterprises.
A escort agency is very often a prepaid phone
No physical adress
Website hosting paid by prepaid credit car
Out of the Country webmasters
A straw man at the head .

When any crime is committed ,its the trace leading to the individual or group of individual that is damaging .
Direct and indirect evidence .


However I do agree that no one should taunt the "Devil" and safest way to go

Still, it's something to keep in mind. Having those kinds of discussion between clients and provider/agency out of the review threads, and through PM only, might be the way to go..

You never are to careful when you freedom is a stake !