Legal or Not

[Tom]

I’m what you call a professional lurker as I have been observing these boards for ever it seems, this is my first post.
The topic of what is legal and what isn’t has come up many times, the posts I’ve read regarding this topic have been somewhat confusing and justifiably so.

The Laws on this matter although clearly defined in our criminal code is still very baffling in it’s application even to the most learned of us.

Have you ever asked LE or Lawyers to explain our prostitution laws? Most cannot give you a well defined clear answer.
Through many years of living the experience, asking LE, some of the best lawyers in Montreal and our Courts, below is my very brief personal interpretation of how these laws are applied in Québec.

Being an Independent is legal but you must do all your communications in private such as the phone, e-mail and other such forms of private conversations. Meeting your clients is public is fine provided arrangements had been made prior to that.

Most of everything else is illegal, examples:

Agency owners forget it, when LE decides it’s your turn, you are screwed with no defense whatsoever with the way our laws stand right now. You can be offering only companionship but that one lady who offers extras without your knowledge can bring you down. The one rotten apple in the bushel really applies here.

If a “friend” answers your phone or e-mails to help make your booking or just gives info on your availability, watch out, your friend is now aiding and abetting. They could face charges so that answers the question on Independents teaming up or networking.

Boyfriends beware, if you live with an Independent or Agency girl, you better be able to prove your income or else your can be charged with living off the avails and even then beware, your assets could also be at risk.

Agency Girls can be charged with being a “found in” but 98% of the time, LE doesn’t enforce that unless you are actively participating in the Agencies operations.

If you call/ask another Independent to see one of your clients, that is not legal even if you make nothing from the referral. ( Difficult to convict )

If you invite another Independent in on your call, that also is not legal. ( Difficult to convict )

The above are just a few examples of situations common to the provider.

Bottom line is that if you’re going to be a “Independent Provider” you are fine until you involve others in your business at which point you could open yourself to prosecution.

The trend by LE these days is to go after the assets of the people involved, especially after LE achieved their Quebec precedent setting victory a few months ago. As publicly stated by LE, they are tired of providers and pimps just paying a fine and re opening their doors.

Assessing your risk factor. Reasons for LE intervention. 1. Stay clear of minors, asking for ID makes no difference if it’s fake. 2. Violence towards the Ladies or Clients. 3. Solictating of Yourself/Agency openly and blatantly in public. 4. Having a big month, don’t brag about your fame and riches. 5. Pissing off some V.I.P. Those are the 5 main reasons in order for trouble. Remember you are one amongst hundreds in this industry. If you suffer from needless paranoia then your in the wrong business.


To the Concerns of Clients:

Do all your arrangements privately with the escort, that is legal. Do not solicit anyone in public.
When calling an Agency, do not ask for sexual services , that is considered solicitation. Remember there are many people asking for the services of Escorts for companionship, that is legal.
What I can say to Independent and Agency clients is that after 20 years here in Montreal, I have never heard of any client being prosecuted for using the services of an Agency or Independent unless they some how stepped out of line (Violence).

Hopefully this answered some issues. My 2 cents worth, if this helped just one person then it was worth it.

My remarks are to be considered only as reference, not advice. Please note that I won’t answer any email regarding this topic or for that matter, most topics.

The first thought that will come to every who doesn’t know me is who is this guy. Understand that I do not say this proudly but only as a reference to my credibility to my post on this topic. English Escorting was formed through my actions in the early eighties, I was the first in the Yellow pages, the first Montreal Agency on the internet, dubbed as the “Montreal Pimp“, “largest agency in North America” and countless other titles from our media and LE friends. If you haven’t already guessed it, the ex-owner of HB.

Criticisms of this post should not follow unless constructive as this post is only meant to be helpful.

Thank you and all my best to everyone.
Tom

 

[cloudsurf]

great post

Thanks Tom, That was one of the most informative and insightful posts written on any board.

 

[ManAboutTown]

Tom, you have to be careful in looking at the "current application" of the laws, as the application can change based on a single case or a kick-ass PC who decides to try to twist the courts around to bit everyeone on the ass. During the pre-judgement lapdance days, the applications of laws in this manner were all over the road. Heck the existance of FS SJs is proof that the law isn't exactly applied evenly in any situation.

Your points are very good, I would just like to add a few minor clarifications:

The arrangement of a sexual encounter via phone, email or other public common carrier is a bit of a risky thing. You should never discuss anything of a sexual nature before you are behind closed and locked doors. Otherwise you risk soliciting.

email has not be proven in a court in Canada to be private, as it passes through your ISP, her ISP, etc. etc. It could be read at any step along the way.

phones are not always private, and there are a number of decisions on both side of this one. Based on the way agencies beat around the bush (proverbially) on the phone, and won't discuss obvious issues makes me think that a phone call isn't considered very private or reliable.

Basically, don't talk sex until you are behind the door and the door is closed.

"found in" laws apply only if the location is found to be a "common bawdy house" in a court of law. You can be charged at the same time the place is raided, but unless the owner is found guilty, the location isn't a common bawdy house and they have no way to make the case against you.

IMHO, incall is about a million times more risky legally that outcall, as a client's typical biggest expose is that "found in" charge. The hotel room you rent for a one time encounter isn't a common bawdy house, so that charge sort of disappears. The girls who work as a group out of hotel rooms and such as, IMHO, so high risk for busts that I wouldn't get caught near one.

MATt

 

[lawless]

As a cautious man, I fully agree with above intrepretation of current situation in Montreal; many have tendency to feel secure in hotel or motel for incall, but beware, specially in places commonly used by agencies on south shore and in east end, Same would apply to those massage places which advertise just below the escorts section in the local papers. Massage is quire often a disguise only.
Better spend more dollars (maximum 20-40$) and book your own place.
Further, always remember who is behind most of the agencies; they are the real targets of LE.

Lawless (or so I would wish to sometime)

 

[lawless]

As soon as you ask, it is within the definition. The LE does not look at the fime print and appearing before a judge, even and specially a friend of mine, is not what you are looking for.

You have to remain private, that is when the door is closed. Please remember that cell phone are public; use a real public phone whenever possible when you want to be more explicit with an agency or a private sp.

Lawless

 

[ManAboutTown]

Didi: Actually, it isn't depressing at all - far from it. We have a system of laws in place that allows us to have enjoyable encounters without fear of getting locked up. All you have to do is play within those rules.

This by far is the single biggest difference between incall and outcall - incall has direct risk from the acts of OTHER people. outcall very much depends on your actions. So much more control.

MATt

 

[Koenig]

Probably one of the 10 best, most interesting posts in here.

 

[lawless]

At least, as long as you know the risk factor, everything else is up to you; you are in full control, urgency or not.

 

[lawless]

Chablis on St-Jacques
Anyone knows what happened this Sunday morning at that motel; I went by at approximately 11:30hrs. and there were 7 LE cars around the place. It is well known that some sp have been working out of that place, but for so many cars to be there, it would have to be a big burst or something else
Lawless

PS Refer also to the TVA Link

 

[ManAboutTown]

Lawless, I am not sure what that event at the Chablis was all about, wasn't around to know. However, I can say that without a doubt, if Prostitution is put in the public eye (as mentioned in the TVA thread) then you can expect to see more of this thing while the public is riled up and LE have to show that they are taking steps to "clean up the problem".

I don't think this is going to be a good week to be incalling, or street walking.

MATt

 

[reviewer]

Chablis

I don't know what happened today but the Chablis (I suppose you guys are talking about the one on st-jacques) with all it's qualities,does has some major flaws as well.

Due to the easiness it is to book a room, it attracts a lot of the time the so so croud. I don't know for you guys but sometimes I just don't feel so safe at the Chablis. I have frequently seen LE cars there... I pass by there quite often and yes i've used it a few times. Once, i wanted to rent a room there but there were a few LE at the reception desk. So i went to park my car in the back and wait a while - for them to leave - and then said to myself: do i want to look like a pimp waiting in the parking lot for her girl to finish a call. I'm sure you guys have seen that scene at the Chablis. So i decided to go wait somewhere else. On the way out of the parking lot, i saw the LE take a fellow with handcuffs into their car. Just saying that these police interventions happen quite often here at the chablis.

I know that the LE doing their rounds patrol quite regularly the Chablis parking lot. We all know of the Chablis reputation and I guess the LE knows it all too well also.

I personally never heard of any gals receiving at the chablis. I think it's more rumours than truth. I think it's not quite to there liking... For one it's too busy, meaning not very discrete. And the outside door no longer exist. And like i said the LE patrols it quite regularly.

Just wanted to add: be carefull at the Chablis. I've seen lot of so so people. I always imagined this scenario happening at the Chablis. John with his nice car goes rent a room with all this cash for his hot call girl. The so-so dudes wait to see what room he enters (though now it could be a lot harder to spy on from the parking lot, because the doors to the room are located inside and not outside anymore). The so-so dudes wait for a while and send their own girl. The girl knocks on the door with the so-so guys right behind her, away from the view of the peep hole. The john thinks it's the call girl. The john open the door. And the so-so guys follow in. I guess I don't have to tell you the rest....

I also think lot of people on the run or hidding from something, use the Chablis or those motels on saint-jacques. I've read a few newspaper headlines where the Chablis was mentioned.

Once these security dudes working for a money transport company staged their own hold-up or held up one of their own- something like that, can't remember the details. But the police knew ahead of this plan and were tracking them undercover. They let the hold-up happen and followed the trail that led to the chablis. One of the dudes was waiting at the chablis and they were going to spit the money in the room. The arrest happened at the chablis.

The motorcycle gangs used the chablis (not on st-jacques but the one in the east east - not Candillac but the other one) for one of there meetings. They had rented a banquet hall. The LE (SQ) hid a camera and microphones in the room and filmed one of the meetings, where high end gang leaders were. It was shown in one those numerous court proceedings held at the beginning of the biker gang crackdown. It was shown on the news, they were talking serious stuff and it was very incriminating. Of course this was filmed before the biker gang crackdown. I never heard a bunch of dumber criminals. They obviously take more precautions now.

So yeah, the Chablis is quite "busy".

 

[lawless]

Chablis

Never experienced what you described above; they took my money and that was it; the same with the one in the east end.

Have been to other motels on St-Jacques quite often but Chablis was and still is probably the best maintained one. May rethink the area considering your description of people around the place.

Did not see anything in the paper this morning; if it had been a big blow, LE would have been too pleased to have journalists with them (I do not believe they can resist it).

Getting good time may be a real venture in the near future!

Lawless

 

[JustaJohn]

Chabli isnt that bad....

I have never went to the Chabli before, however, some of the high end sps i have seen in the past have mentionned to me that they would prefer seeing me at the Chabli in a future encounter instead of a downtown hotel because simply: they like it, and that the atmosphere in some of the rooms (hot tub, etc) make it a more fitting place for a romantic rendez-vous.

As for Reviewer mentionning that LE had videotaped the bikers in one of the rooms at the Chabli, i do not recall this. However, i do recall them being videotaped outside the Omni, and that the leaders of the local Hells group led by Mom Boucher were busted at the Mid-town Holiday Inn located on Sherbrooke.

Off topic: an acquaintance and hobbyist was at the Holiday Inn Select (at the Chinese Quarter) on the weekend, and he mentionned to me today that he heard a police siren yesterday morning. A few seconds later, he heard several gunshots coming from nearby. Anyone hear about anything that happened around there?

 

[funman]

I have used Chablis on St. Jacques quite a few times. I like it because they have four hours rate and the rooms are pretty good. I especially like the mirror beside the bed. I never have any problem there and it's very easy to get a room, they just want the license plate number and the cash. The girl at the counter is pretty nice and cute. I usually go during the day-mostly in the morning. Now I am a bit worry going there. Hope you guys keep posting on recent news at Chablis.

 

[reviewer]

Just wanted to add something to my post and what was posted by others. I did say that the Chablis had QUALITIES but had major flaws. I did not state the qualities because I think lot of you guys know them already, as I have seen by the numerous post stating them here.

Anyways, to the poster who said he did not recall of the LE filming bikers in one of the room. They did not. It was one of the banquet halls or something like that the bikers had used for their "gathering" at the Chablis in the east-east of montreal. So you guys, don't worry no one is filming you while your at it .

 

[leglover]

Re: Chablis

I don't know what happened today but the Chablis (I suppose you guys are talking about the one on st-jacques) with all it's qualities,does has some major flaws as well.



Just wanted to add: be carefull at the Chablis. I've seen lot of so so people. I always imagined this scenario happening at the Chablis. John with his nice car goes rent a room with all this cash for his hot call girl. The so-so dudes wait to see what room he enters (though now it could be a lot harder to spy on from the parking lot, because the doors to the room are located inside and not outside anymore). The so-so dudes wait for a while and send their own girl. The girl knocks on the door with the so-so guys right behind her, away from the view of the peep hole. The john thinks it's the call girl. The john open the door. And the so-so guys follow in. I guess I don't have to tell you the rest....

What I do not understand is that if you have contacted an independant escort pricately (by phone) and you are supposed to see her at a roon in Chablis, if above scenario comes trus, based on which law the "so-so people are allowed to enter your room?!!

You have made an appointment privately with a escort to see her and enjoy talking to her. Is this a crime?

Leglover

 

[reviewer]

I think you guys misunderstood my post. By "so-so", I meant low life opportunist criminals.

 

[lawless]

Satin Dream

Look at that link and advise if you consider it to be sollicitating customers or sp.

Lawless

 

[leglover]

...
it's very easy to get a room, they just want the license plate number and the cash. ....
[/B]

Why do they ask for the plate number?

 

[lawless]

Plate number

I hope no one ever gives its plate number; give any number but your own number; they never check. They do that all over America; here in Quebec, it could be provided to LA should something happen in the room (damages, etc....yes, including what we all know...). As such, the motel owner cannot do anything by himself with a number. Unless there exist a link with the underworld and they may have access to the SAAQ through friends of theirs!

Lawless