Montreal Escorts

Looming Climate Disaster: Hold on to you butts.

JustBob

New Member
Nov 19, 2004
921
0
0
Ziggy Montana said:
Thank you for admitting that you are condescending and have been playing the same broken record...

The fact that you keep attacking the poster and not the arguments presented only serves to prove that you do not possess the required knowledge and understanding of issues to be able to debate them intelligently. That's your problem, not mine.

So, where's your enlightening contribution to this thread again? Are you now finished threadcrapping?
 

z/m(Ret)

New Member
Feb 28, 2007
1,676
3
0
JustBob said:
The fact that you keep attacking the poster and not the arguments presented only serves to prove that you do not possess the required knowledge and understanding of issues to be able to debate them intelligently. That's your problem, not mine.

So, where's your enlightening contribution to this thread again? Are you now finished threadcrapping?
As I previously stated, there's no point repeating an exercise based on the premises that you have defined: "Me, the skeptic, them the alarmists". The positive and negative connotations you've been generously distributing depending on which side of the argument one is debating makes you guilty of exactly what you're accusing your detractors of doing: "attacking the poster and not the arguments".

Expressing concerns over the impact of human activities on climate change doesn't make one an "alarmist". You, instead, are putting everyone in the same basket.

Perhaps you don't own a mirror but have you heard of Pot calling Kettle black?
 
Last edited:

JustBob

New Member
Nov 19, 2004
921
0
0
Korbel said:
Hello JB,

I started this thread with something a bit different than other threads on global warming. You arrive with the same two basic positions..."science sucks...human influenced global warming is nearly impossible.

And can I ask by what sort of twisted logic you came to these conclusions? "Science sucks" Errrr... I have a degree IN science... So no, science doesn't suck. But there's as much GOOD science as there is BAD science. And science is not inherently BAD because it offers contradictory evidence. Again, that's how the scientific process advances. As to your second conclusion, I've never stated anything of that sort. Now you're using another annoying anti-debating tactic 101, jumping to conclusions by putting words into other people's mouths. My point, is that As much as the media would have you believe it, there is no scientific concensus on the level of impact of humans on Global Warming.

Your positions have been repsonded to honesty to death. If I do some research I would bet that this passage: "Really? I think the problem is exactly the opposite. Science does not advance thru certainties, concensus and lack of debate. Quite the contrary. The real problem here is that Global Warming has become a religion and the "alarmists" are acting like religious zealots who quickly shun or dismiss studies that contradict their findings. And much of the blame lies on the media, who just keep trumpeting the popular point of view and completely ignore science that contradicts it. Shame on them. I'm reminded of a quote from an article about the media constantly nitpicking on the "facts" in Michael Moore films" has been copied from your posts on other threads or you have a talent for expressing your thoughts so perfectly unchanging word for word. Is that being genuine?

I will not even dignify that with a response...

You refuse to credit science with much of anything. You say : one step forward and two steps back or more. How about a hundred steps forward? Ever heard of penicillin for one! Geeeeez JB...

Are you a scientist? I think not. Are you seriously comparing the discovery of penicillin to Global Warming? Jesus, are you even aware of the number of different sciences (from astronomy, to geology, to meteorology, to climatology, etc...) involved and of the mindboggling complexity of issues?

if you can respond directly to the beginning of this thread on subject instead of attempting to discredit sciences again and again I will address anything new you have to say honestly. But until then try not to repeat or reprint old arguments.

Huh? I was responding to arguments put forth by other posters. I'm not allowed to do that? Is there some new rule I'm not aware of that requires posters to only address the thread starter's post?

Now you say that I'm "attempting to discredit science". Of course I am not. And again, their is GOOD science and BAD science on both sides of the issue. So the real question here is, why are you so quick to qualify science you believe in as GOOD, and science that challenges your beliefs as BAD? Why do you feel so threatened when your own "certainties" are challenged?
 
Last edited:

JustBob

New Member
Nov 19, 2004
921
0
0
Ziggy Montana said:
As I previously stated, there's no point repeating an exercise based on the premises that you have defined: "Me, the skeptic, them the alarmists". The positive and negative connotations you've been generously distributing depending on which side of the argument one is debating makes you guilty of exactly what you're accusing your detractors of doing: "attacking the poster and not the arguments".

False. In the Global Warming debate, there are indeed "alarmists" and "skeptics", you are free to debate one position or the other, or both if you wish. And unless you suffer from really bad reading comprehension skills, you will have noted that I have adressed other people's arguments with coherent arguments of my own. If I had simply said (like you guys are doing...) "duh! you are an alarmist! you suck! you're wrong!" then you might have a point. As it stands your argument is moot.

Expressing concerns over the impact of human activities on climate change doesn't make one an "alarmist". You, instead, are putting everyone in the same basket.

Expressing concerns is fine, but only considering one side of the equation isn't. When somebody states that "no debate is required", it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that that person falls squarely in the "alarmist" camp.

Perhaps you don't own a mirror but have you heard of Pot calling Kettle black?

I'm sorry, where are your arguments again? Are you done with this annoying threadcrapping?
 
Last edited:

z/m(Ret)

New Member
Feb 28, 2007
1,676
3
0
JustBob said:
False. In the Global Warming debate, there are indeed "alarmists" and "skeptics", you are free to debate one position or the other, or both if you wish. And unless you suffer from really bad reading comprehension skills, you will have noted that I have adressed other people's arguments with coherent arguments of my own. If I had simply said (like you guys are doing...) "duh! you are an alarmist! you suck! you're wrong!" then you might have a point. As it stands your argument is moot.



Expressing concerns is fine, but having blind faith in one side of the coin does. When somebody states that "no debate is required", it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that that person falls squarely in the "alarmist" camp.



I'm sorry, where are your arguments again? Are you done with this annoying threadcrapping?
I haven't yet presented any argument, simply showed in what way your unbalanced presentation of the debaters inhibits debate.

True, there's a fair amount of recuperation made by the media and interested parties of the conclusions reached by the IPCC. Also true, there's a great deal of recuperation made of alternative conclusions reached by dissident physicists. Sure enough, there's Greenpeace-style of hysteria to lament but think also of how much money Exxon Mobil has been pumping into ultra-conservative tribunes for "skeptics" to publish their conclusions.

Your address of the issue is to present the IPCC conclusions within the framework of media recuperation whereas you present alternative conclusions as pure science.

This way of presenting each side of the argument in different contexts of production has been widely discussed in Aristotle's dialectics, the art of being right at any cost.

Skeptics -vs- Alarmists produces a bias tribune for discussion. Such presentation is no way as neutral as "human activity causes global warming" -vs- "doesn't" or "we don't know for sure".
 
Last edited:

z/m(Ret)

New Member
Feb 28, 2007
1,676
3
0
rollingstone said:
The global warming debate has become as problematic as evolution: There is a debate where there should be none. Its a sad state of affairs when the northern polar ice cap is melting and instead of being alarmed, countries like Canada and Russia are fighting over whom gets to drill for oil in the newly melted areas. With this kind of attitude, the bbc article I read yesterday claiming that polar bears will be extinct in 43 years comes as no surprise!
There's no debate over climate change but there's certainly one over human activity causing global warming, a scientific debate.

In a context of scientific uncertainty, part of assessing the risk for planners to either take action or remain passive is to carefully evaluate the cost (be it social, environmental or human) of every scenario and from there work optimized policies to mitigate the risk, either by avoiding it, reducing it, segregating it, accepting it, transferring it, or by combining several mitigation methods.

As foolish as it would be to make hasty decisions, waiting passively for everyone to unanimously agree over the issues or - worse - having infinite faith in human beings to infallibly adapt to new environmental contexts, disengages from responsibility.

Debaters with no specific scientific competence are battling on the wrong battlefield. Their issues lie instead in assessing the threat in terms of cost.
 
Last edited:

JustBob

New Member
Nov 19, 2004
921
0
0
Ziggy Montana said:
I haven't yet presented any argument, simply showed in what way your unbalanced presentation of the debaters inhibits debate.

False. Substituting "alarmists" with "people who believe that man is largely responsible for global warming" and "skeptics" with "people who argue that there is no scientific concensus on that issue" does absolutely nothing to invalidate the arguments presented. You are (unsucessfully) trying to invalidate arguments by using silly semantics issues based on political correctness. The reason why these terms usually appear within quotes should be fairly obvious to anyone.

True, there's a fair amount of recuperation made by the media and interested parties of the conclusions reached by the IPCC. Also true, there's a great deal of recuperation made of alternative conclusions reached by dissident physicists. Sure enough, there's Green Peace but think also of how much money Exxon Mobil has been pumping into ultra-conservative tribunes for "skeptics" to publish their conclusions.

Yes, and as I stated earlier, and if you understand the way research is funded, and the pressure researchers are under to produce results that support the majority opinion (think about all the money currently being funneled into alternative forms of energy research), then you'd agree that there's GOOD and BAD science on both sides.

Your address of the issue is to present the IPCC conclusions within the framework of media recuperation whereas you present alternative conclusions as pure science.

It is important to mention media recuperation because they have utterly failed to present both sides of the issue, and the result of this is that the overwhelming majority of people just gobbled it up without asking questions or doing their own research. Furthermore, nowhere have I presented all the conclusions from the IPCC report as false, and all alternative conclusions as "pure science". But questionning the validity of said report is the right thing to do. Especially, and again..., when several scientists who's research was used on the report and were on the report review panel point out that their research was often cited out of context and that words were changed to fit pre-determined conclusions...

Also, the term "skeptic" is self-explanatory, and the most prominent "skeptics" often reject science and conclusions reached by other (more extreme) "skeptics". So let's not try to paint "skeptics" as a bunch of mindless brainwashed loonies who will stick to their guns no matter what. One more time, there's GOOD science and BAD science on both side of the issue. But when one points out the fallacies of Gore's famous CO2 vs temperature chart, this isn't "presenting alternative conclusions as pure science", this is fact, which is now entirely supported in the scientific litterature regardless of one's "side".

This way of presenting each side of the argument in different contexts of production has been widely discussed in Aristotle's dialectics, the art of being right at any cost.

Now that's funny AND ironic. I'm sure you must have read that book many times. ;)

Skeptics -vs- Alarmists produces a bias tribune for discussion. Such presentation is no way as neutral as "human activity causes global warming" -vs- "doesn't".

Please... See above.

Now I have no further use for this discussion. I have absolutely no interest in arguing the merits of "debating ethics" with someone who constantly uses all the tricks in the anti-debating 101 book to ensure that no debate takes place.
 
Last edited:

z/m(Ret)

New Member
Feb 28, 2007
1,676
3
0
Not what I said at all.....................

JustBob said:
False. Substituting "alarmists" with "people who believe that man is largely responsible for global warming" and "skeptics" with "people who argue that there is no scientific concensus on that issue" does absolutely nothing to invalidate the arguments presented. You are (unsucessfully) trying to invalidate arguments by using silly semantics issues based on political correctness.
Making groundless accusation against me instead of reading what I wrote. I'm not validating nor discrediting any argument, as you sugggested, simply submitted that negative and positive connotations are used rhetorically to create unbalance.

Rhetorically, there's room to reverse the terms: call "blinds" those who doubt the IPCC conclusions and, conversely, "skeptics" those who reject Richard Lindzen's conclusions based on his allegiance to ultra-conservative think tanks.

Now tell me is such semantic "silliness" has no significance in regards to the neutrality of debate.
 
Last edited:

JustBob

New Member
Nov 19, 2004
921
0
0
Ziggy Montana said:
Now tell me is such semantic "silliness" has no significance in regards to the neutrality of debate.

Little to none for those who choose to focus on the arguments presented by either side and don't get obsessed by the use of the terms "alarmists" and "skeptics", which again, appear within quotes for a reason...
 

z/m(Ret)

New Member
Feb 28, 2007
1,676
3
0
JustBob said:
Little to none for those who choose to focus on the arguments presented by either side and don't get obsessed by the use of the terms "alarmists" and "skeptics", which again, appear within quotes for a reason...
And part of those who choose to focus on the arguments would be you, correct?

Care then to describe the scientific method you are using in order to validate or discredit the scientific findings on both side of the issue? Please present your hypotheses.
 

JustBob

New Member
Nov 19, 2004
921
0
0
Now to get back on topic. Since korbel seemed to insist that I address his original post, where he makes the apocalyptic prediction of a "Looming Climate Disaster: Hold on to your butts", based entirely on a BBC documentary presented on PBS, "NOVA: Dimming Sun". And where he concludes by saying:

"Well, I am sure the extreme doubters will continue in their ways no matter what is proven."

Well here's the kicker. Not only does he claim that a single documentary constitutes "proof" of impending doom, but he also provides a link to "Global Dimming Research":

http://www.realclimate.org/index.php?p=105

And unfortunately for him, had he taken the time to READ the content from the actual link, including the discussion between various scientists, he would have immediately noted that this "Dimming Research" provides far from conclusive proof of anything. I quote:

"The suggested 'doubling' of the rate of warming in the future compared to even the most extreme scenario developed by IPCC is thus highly exaggerated. Supposed consequences such as the drying up of the Amazon Basin, melting of Greenland, and a North African climate regime coming to the UK, are simply extrapolations built upon these exaggerations. Whether these conclusions are actually a fair summary of what the scientists quoted in the program wanted to say is unknown. However, while these extreme notions might make good television, they do a dis-service to the science."

"Blind faith" indeed.
 

z/m(Ret)

New Member
Feb 28, 2007
1,676
3
0
Korbel,

Scientific debates between non-scientific belligerents
on escort review boards are counter-productive, not to say risible.
It's a bit like watching midget wrestlers play chess on a dissection table.
No one plays, no one wrestles, and no one dissects. Everyone's just
being a midget.

Name-dropping and quoting articles appeal only to authority
fallacy if posters are unable or unwilling to produce validation.

Alternatively, the notions of "risk" (what if? what if not?) and "cost"
(how much if we do? how much if we don't?) broaden the scope of
the discussion in a way that it allows it to take place outside the
realm of scientific debate. It also welcomes non-scientific posters
to participate in a productive fashion.

When in doubt, the best decision is sometimes the one we don't make.
We therefore accept the risk so to spare ourselves the cost.
Conversely, it doesn't pay to accept the risk if countermeasures used
to mitigate the risk prove to be cost-effective and a cost avoidance.

Discuss... :D
 
Last edited:

JustBob

New Member
Nov 19, 2004
921
0
0
Korbel said:
Hello JB,

So you have mischaracterized me grossly. You seem also to have a preoccupation with personalities talking about what this one or that one said and providing little pertinent evidence about the issue at hand.

Korbel

Frankly Korbel, If I mischaracterized your intent, then I'm at a loss as to what your intent was here... What was the point of that thread title, and what did you expect one to deduce from such an "alarmist" title? Furthermore, you give a brief summary of what global dimming is, you point to an "alarmist" documentary on the topic and then to a website about the topic, where someone states that said documentary doesn't prove anything as to the real impact of global dimming, is full of exaggerations and does a disservice to science. Okkkkk, so again, what kind of responses did you expect? The science behind that documentary is 2 1/2 years old. So what are YOUR views on the current state of global dimming research? What evidence did YOU provide in regards to said research still being relevant or not? What points was I supposed to address? Why do you expect me to provide "pertinent (up-to-date) evidence" on this topic when you fail to provide any? And you blame me for being off topic? I mean come on...

korbel said:
"As has been hinted at here there is resistance to factual debate on climate change that amounts to intrigue".

And where does this resistance come from? From only one point of view being presented and from the constant shunning and dismissal of scientists and research that produces contradictory results, which the general population never gets to hear about. You can't get have a "healthy factual debate" if only one point of view is taken into consideration.

Look, I really don't mean to brag, but having been part of debates on global warming spanning hundreds of pages of discussion and analysis of articles for years now, I'm quite sure I know more about this issue and the science behind it than anyone here. Now does this make my opinion on this issue the absolute truth? No, but it sure as hell makes me better informed...
 
Last edited:

JustBob

New Member
Nov 19, 2004
921
0
0
Ziggy Montana said:
Scientific debates between non-scientific belligerents
on escort review boards are counter-productive, not to say risible.

I agree, and I should have stuck to my original plan to limit discussions of politics and world events to a political forum. Twice bitten...
 

z/m(Ret)

New Member
Feb 28, 2007
1,676
3
0
JustBob said:
I agree, and I should have stuck to my original plan to limit discussions of politics and world events to a political forum. Twice bitten...
There you go being condescending again. The choice of forum doesn't give you competence.

Part of my point is anyone partaking this discussion with the pretense of scientific expertise is a fraud.

Modesty applies. Better contributions are made when the context of discussion is open to various people with different backgrounds and life experience.

Hence my suggestion to move the debate outside the sphere of (pseudo) scientific debate, based only on name-dropping and link-dropping.

(*) and, yes, you are bragging and before you proclaim yourself the best informed poster you should at least ask what and how much of it your detractors have read. You might be making gains in modesty.
 
Last edited:

JustBob

New Member
Nov 19, 2004
921
0
0
Ziggy Montana said:
There you go being condescending again. The choice of forum doesn't give you competence.

Bullocks, yes it does. And there's nothing condescending about it. If your statement was true, then you'd have no problem admitting that people on this forum are no more competent when discussing the intricacies of "hobbying" than your average guy on a music or a car forum.

Part of my point is anyone partaking this discussion with the pretense of scientific expertise is a fraud.

More nonsense. That's a copout argument used by the uninformed who have no intelligent arguments of their own to offer because they simply haven't done the research and spent years discussing the issue.

Better contributions are made when the context of discussion is open to various people with different backgrounds and life experience.

Define "better". More generic? Yes. But when it comes to discussing the actual science behind global warming, absolutely not. There's no substitute for knowledge.

(*) and, yes, you are bragging and before you proclaim yourself the best informed poster you should at least ask what and how much of it your detractors have read. You might be making gains in modesty.

I should ask? Ask you? You haven't offered a single argument in this thread that would lead me to believe that you are informed about this issue. Until you do, you have absolutely no ground to stand on. And modesty? You have the balls to talk about modesty? You? "Ziggy I'm never wrong about anything Montana", who constantly gets banned from these forums and keeps blaming everybody else but himself? Good one... When you get off your pedestal, then we might begin to discuss "modesty"...
 
Last edited:

General Gonad

Enlightened pervert
Dec 31, 2005
3,463
6
0
Ziggy Montana said:
Name-dropping and quoting articles appeal only to authority fallacy if posters are unable or unwilling to produce validation.

Are we still debating global warming? With all due respect, I do not need a PhD to understand what the article I quoted in post #11 is telling me.:rolleyes:

Yawn!

GG
 

z/m(Ret)

New Member
Feb 28, 2007
1,676
3
0
JustBob said:
I should ask? Ask you? You haven't offered a single argument in this thread that would lead me to believe that you are informed about this issue. Until you do, you have absolutely no ground to stand on.
I did, you jest. Read what I said about addressing the issue in terms of "risk" and "cost" when in a context of uncertainty. The Chancellor of the Exchequer has commissioned an independent review which aim was to build understanding of the economics of climate change exactly in terms of risk and cost. Do you have any idea of which review I'm talking about?
JustBob said:
Bullocks, yes it does. And there's nothing condescending about it. If your statement was true, then you'd have no problem admitting that people on this forum are no more competent when discussing "hobbying" than people on a music or a car forum.
Then you should be able to describe, as I asked you before, the method you are using to validate scientific findings. If you have the scientific competences, you should be able to present your method. Please do so.

Also please produce your credentials as a scientist other than holding a degree in Marine Biology.
 
Last edited:

JustBob

New Member
Nov 19, 2004
921
0
0
Ziggy Montana said:
I did, you jest. Read what I said about addressing the issue in terms of "risk" and "cost" when in a context of uncertainty. The Chancellor of the Exchequer has commissioned an independent review which aim was to build understanding of the economics of climate change exactly in terms of risk and cost. Do you have any idea of which review I'm talking about?

No you did not. What you are doing, because you don't know squat about global warming research, is use yet another lame anti-debating trick to avoid debate and dictate your own terms of discussion. Which is exactly what you have been doing in the past on other issues...

Then you should be able to describe, as I asked you before, the method you are using to validate scientific findings. If you have the scientific competences, you should be able to present your method. Please do so.

Also please produce your credentials as a scientist other than holding a degree in Marine Biology.

Hahahaha! Do you really think this lame attempt at attacking my credibility is going to work? That I'm going to take this "bait"? Please... As in the previous "debates" I've had with you, you completely failed at addressing arguments presented. It's up to you to prove that you have any credibility whatsoever when discussing this issue, not to me.

I'm, done wasting my time with you. I'll let others be the judge as to who is credible and who isn't...
 
Last edited:

z/m(Ret)

New Member
Feb 28, 2007
1,676
3
0
Question for the expert.......

Prof. JB,

Please enlighten the poor ignorants we are on the collapse of the West Antarctic Ice Sheet in 2002, specifically the instabilities in the Larsen Ice Shelf which led to the collapse of a section of the shelf the size of Rhode Island?

You being the expert, should be able to explain what happen and why, no?
 
Toronto Escorts