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Looming Climate Disaster: Hold on to you butts.

JustBob

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Nov 19, 2004
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hydragoat said:
Bob,
There is nothing wrong with being a skeptic or a heretic. You need that in society. You need that in science.
But.....its not enough to be a skeptic or heretic or a "lone voice of reason".

The person has to have arguments, observational and/or experimental evidence, he must account for cause, effect and mechanisms between them. Smugly pointing at paradoxes, contradictions and holes in data does not an expert make.
This is where your boys fail miserably. They are just not credible. They are not believable. They don't rate. They are non-entities propped up by certain power groups and equal time laws.

They are no more credible than the few Phds that are making money on the UFO circuit or intelligent design advocates trying to impose religious dogma on the credulous & innocent.


In the the case of climate change, pollution, energy policy, military spending, war mongering, transfats, tobacco etc. All you do is get a few people with some "credentials" and give them air time and a bit of money to muddy up the debate and subvert democracy.

If that's what you believe, then nothing I can really say will change your mind. Just a couple of observations though:

1. Your are still greatly underestimating the number of "skeptics" out there.

2. "Skeptics" are subject to peer review like all other scientists. The ones that don't pass the test are simply never published (well not in "serious" scientific journals anyway).

3. Once again you promote this fallacy that this tiny minority of "skeptics" are lunatics who spend most of their time agreeing with each other and criticizing those that don't share their views. Not only do "skeptics" review and criticize each other's work, but they are far less guilty of the infantile "he's a lunatic, his science is crap!" type of comments mean't to shut others down and stiffle debate than the "alarmists" are.

4. And since we have already brought up this point in this thread previously, how do YOU detemine which science is crap and which isn't? Fact is, "Alarmists" are just as guilty of spewing "junk science" than "skeptics" are.

5. Your approach to science seems to have a lot more to do with blind faith than reason. You know, just like people who believe in UFO's. :)
 
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JustBob

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Nov 19, 2004
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Ben Dover said:
Indeed, the tons of "hot air" on this board is making matters worse... People need to "stay cool". I agree :)


Yeah, thank god you brought up the ice issue, otherwise it would be like a sauna in here. :)
 

korbel

Name Retired.
Aug 16, 2003
2,409
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Her Hot Dreams
JustBob said:
Not mentionning all the heat produced during our encounters with SP's. Let's face it guys, "hobbying" is a major contributor to global warming. :)

Hello JB,

Of course you this presents no problem for your integrity. As a global warming doubter you can have all the sex you want without feeling any guilt about endangering the atmosphere. The rest of us who believe the global warming threat is real and are trying to fight it risk hypocrisy every time we dare to think of satisfying our lust with an SP encounter. Oh how heavy is the burden of saving the planet...lol.

Damn,

Korbel
 

korbel

Name Retired.
Aug 16, 2003
2,409
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Her Hot Dreams
The Strange Relationship.

Hello all,

Here is more on the unique relationship between global warming and global dimming. It is a hypothesis about how the two phenomenons may be reinforcing each other. I suggest you read the entire article as I did. What is printed here is only a small part of the article to spur interest. The theory at the end is quite provocative.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2003/dec/18/science.research1

In 1985, a geography researcher called Atsumu Ohmura at the Swiss Federal Institute of Technology got the shock of his life. As part of his studies into climate and atmospheric radiation, Ohmura was checking levels of sunlight recorded around Europe when he made an astonishing discovery. It was too dark. Compared to similar measurements recorded by his predecessors in the 1960s, Ohmura's results suggested that levels of solar radiation striking the Earth's surface had declined by more than 10% in three decades. Sunshine, it seemed, was on the way out.

Enjoy,

Korbel
 
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z/m(Ret)

New Member
Feb 28, 2007
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Is there really no consensus?

hydragoat said:
There is a scientific concensus that anthropogenic green house gases are significant proportion of total green house gases.

"Skeptics" or "Contrarians" are generally part of one or many of the following categories:

(1) Believe global warming is not occurring (T.F. Ball)
(2) Believe accuracy of IPCC climate projections is inadequate (R.A. Pielke, H. Tennekes, more...)
(3) Believe global warming is primarily caused by natural processes (Fred Singer, Frederick Seitz, Ian Clark, W.M. Gray, more...)
(4) Believe cause of global warming is unknown (Richard Lindzen, Claude Allègre, more...)
(5) Believe global warming will benefit human society (Patrick Michaels, more...)

At least 4 petitions have circulated since 1992 and an open letter addresse to PM Harper in 2006.

(1) 47 scientists signed The 1992 "Statement by Atmospheric Scientists on Greenhouse Warming"

(2) Over 4000 scientists signed "The "Heidelberg Appeal" (1992)

(3) Singer's "Leipzig Declaration on Global Climate Change" (1995 and 1997). At least 12 signatories denied having signed or heard of the said declaration.

(4) Frederick Seitz's "The "Oregon Petition" (1998) shows 17,800 signatures,many of which allegedly lack a background in climatology

(5) The group known as "sixty scientists" signed an Open Letter to the Canadian Prime Minister Stephen Harper to ask that he revisit the science of global warming and "Open Kyoto to debate" (2006). Many of the signatories were allegedly not climatologists.

Conversely, over 30 of the largest scientific bodies and research institutions and hundreds of scientists from 113 countries have reached the said consensus.
 
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Mike Mercury

Member
Sep 10, 2005
864
1
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JustBob said:
If that's what you believe, then nothing I can really say will change your mind. Just a couple of observations though:

1. Your are still greatly underestimating the number of "skeptics" out there.

2. "Skeptics" are subject to peer review like all other scientists. The ones that don't pass the test are simply never published (well not in "serious" scientific journals anyway).

3. Once again you promote this fallacy that this tiny minority of "skeptics" are lunatics who spend most of their time agreeing with each other and criticizing those that don't share their views. Not only do "skeptics" review and criticize each other's work, but they are far less guilty of the infantile "he's a lunatic, his science is crap!" type of comments mean't to shut others down and stiffle debate than the "alarmists" are.

4. And since we have already brought up this point in this thread previously, how do YOU detemine which science is crap and which isn't? Fact is, "Alarmists" are just as guilty of spewing "junk science" than "skeptics" are.

5. Your approach to science seems to have a lot more to do with blind faith than reason. You know, just like people who believe in UFO's.

I am not on a hooker review board to get my climatology facts and info. Not a good place.

1 I'm not underestimating anything. I made no estimates whatsoever.
2 Skeptics and peer review? A lot of these guys are not in the field they have chosen to be skeptical of. They are not doing research. They are simply playing devil's advocate without any serious ammunition. And are they really skeptics or simply anti-whatever?
3 Lunatics??? Those are your words not mine. The terms I would use are clever, corrupt, exploitive, opportunistic, crafty, shrewd, entertaining.
Lunatics???? Those are your words not mine.
4 Alarmists? Please, not that old & tired term. Nobody has pulled a fire alarm. When a plane crashes people worry about planes. Was the plane crash alarmist? Or is it that some people are alarmed by complex, strange, unusual things that are are diffiicult to understand? Those are questions, Bob.
5 Sorry Bob, but you do not know what my approach to science is.


Bob, you opened the door to making judgements and comments about my personality. So I will make a comment about yours. Tit for tat. Quid pro quo. You can thank me later.
Bob, you are obviously getting flustered by all this.
 

JustBob

New Member
Nov 19, 2004
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Well, I should obviously have left it at that:

"If that's what you believe, then nothing I can really say will change your mind."

P.S.1: I was referring to "skeptic" scientists, not to commentators or pundits.

P.S.2: I've you've this entire thread, it should be apparent that we are way past the flustered stage. :)
 
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putneyswope

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Jun 1, 2007
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Curious George

With all of the conservative presidents in the states since Nixon, no one was so stupid as to give corporate welfare to something no one in the US needs.
C O A L!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Whta do we have now after six years of this drug addict????
Numerous coal miners dead that don't reach the press and an eroded ozone layer!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 

Mike Mercury

Member
Sep 10, 2005
864
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JustBob said:
Well, I should obviously have left it at that:

"If that's what you believe, then nothing I can really say will change your mind."


What's your point, Bob?

Do u really think that you have stated anything profound and revealing about the global energy balance that somehow it would convince me that for decades I have misread & misundertood 100's of scientific articles?

Are you on a mission to educate this hooker board about pollution, climatology, worldwide energy use and the virtues of capitalism unfettered by health, safety, environmental & human rights legislation and morals?

If you are then you had better take a couple of vitamins, Bob. :D :D
PS When people do not go for what you say...perhaps it is not that they do not understand and that their belief system is delusional...it is perhaps that the form & substance of what you say is flawed.
 

Mike Mercury

Member
Sep 10, 2005
864
1
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Ziggy Montana said:
"Skeptics" or "Contrarians" are generally part of one or many of the following categories:

\
(4) Believe cause of global warming is unknown (Richard Lindzen, Claude Allègre, more...)


(3) Singer's "Leipzig Declaration on Global Climate Change" (1995 and 1997). At least 12 signatories denied having signed or heard of the said declaration.


Richard Lindzen is quoted in dozens of articles in http://www.cnsnews.com/
He's cleverly trying to pass scientists as religious fanatics.
In doing this he makes a lot smile on his ability to take money from
the Center for the Defense of Free Enterprise
http://www.cdfe.org/global_warming_religion.htm.

Nobody is llistening to him yet this Center for the Defense of Free Enterprise is paying him to state whatever the market will bear. Priceless
 

JustBob

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Nov 19, 2004
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hydragoat said:
What's your point, Bob?

Simply that from your very first post, you have proven that you have a "definitive" opinion on this issue, and that it's really useless to try and debate with you.

Do u really think that you have stated anything profound and revealing about the global energy balance that somehow it would convince me that for decades I have misread & misundertood 100's of scientific articles?

And on what grounds would you argue (it that's what your doing), that your interpretation of 100's of scientific articles would be the correct one and that mine isn't? Or do you only read those that support your point of view?
Science contradicts itself all the time, especially a science like climatology which is mostly based on "models". Not to mention the historical (or lack of) perpective which I pointed out earlier.

Are you on a mission to educate this hooker board about pollution, climatology, worldwide energy use and the virtues of capitalism unfettered by health, safety, environmental & human rights legislation and morals?

Oh please, spare us the nonsensical preaching...

If you are then you had better take a couple of vitamins, Bob. :D :D
PS When people do not go for what you say...perhaps it is not that they do not understand and that their belief system is delusional...it is perhaps that the form & substance of what you say is flawed.

Would you care to point out exactly how it is flawed? Perhaps you're not interested in hearing about science that challenges your own certainties, that's your problem not mine.
 
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JustBob

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Nov 19, 2004
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hydragoat said:
Richard Lindzen is quoted in dozens of articles in http://www.cnsnews.com/
He's cleverly trying to pass scientists as religious fanatics.


Maybe if some of them stopped acting like religious fanatics, and concentrated on science, that problem woudn't exist. As I stated earlier, "alarmists" are far more guilty of this type of "You're a loon! Your science is crap!" nonsense than skeptics are. Oddly enough, you've been engaging in the very same type of behavior...
 
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JustBob

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Nov 19, 2004
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Oh, and this for you: :)

Global Warming: Religion or Science?
by H. Sterling Burnett

The “theory” of global warming posits that human activities such as deforestation--but primarily the burning of fossil fuels--are causing an increase in the amount of heat-trapping greenhouse gases in the atmosphere, enhancing the natural greenhouse effect. This warming, the theory continues, if unchecked will lead to all manner of apocalyptic events.

I placed the word “theory” in quotes because I am reluctantly coming to the conclusion that the idea that humans are causing global warming is really more akin to a religious belief--a revealed truth about human sins (fossil fuel use) and their consequences (all manner of calamities)--rather than a testable scientific explanation.

A couple of points lead me to this conclusion: the way climate scientists skeptical of the claims that humans are causing climate change are treated, and the fact that the theory seems to violate the scientific method by being unfalsifiable.

Concerning the first point, proponents of the theory of human-caused global warming have declared that the debate is over--humans are causing catastrophic warming. This oft-repeated declaration has taken on the characteristic of a mystic chant or mantra to ward off further debate. It has caught on in the popular press and on Capitol Hill, but it could not be less true.

Much solid climate change research at best calls into question, and at worst largely undermines, fundamental claims of the “theory”--that human activities are the primary cause of the current warming trend, that global warming will cause unmitigated environmental disasters and that sharply curbing human energy use is the best response to climate change. Yet, when they don’t ignore the research entirely, all too often proponents of the theory label it as “junk science.” Indeed, the typical approach taken by environmentalists is to revert to ad hominem attacks--criticizing the researchers’ motives or their funding sources rather than addressing the substance of their arguments.

The term “skeptic” has historically been a badge of honor proudly worn by scientists as indicating their commitment to the idea that, in the pursuit of truth, nothing is beyond question, every bit of knowledge is open to improvement and/or refutation as new evidence or better theories emerge.

However, in the topsy-turvy field of climate science, “skeptic” is a term of opprobrium and to be labeled a skeptic is to be dismissed as a hack. Being a skeptic concerning global warming today is akin to being a heretic in the Middle Ages--you may not be literally burned at the stake, but your reputation will be put to flames.

In response, many scientists whose research calls into question one or more of the fundamental tenets of global warming orthodoxy have learned to couch their conclusions carefully. They argue, for instance, that while their research does not match up with this or that point in global warming theory, or would seem to undermine this or that conclusion, they are not denying that humans are causing global warming and they cannot account for the discrepancy between their work and the theory’s predictions.

These scientists have learned the hard lesson that when reality and the theory conflict, for professional reasons, they’d better cling to the theory: shades of Galileo recanting his theory that the Earth revolves around the sun under pressure from the Inquisition.

Concerning the scientific method, progress is made in science by proposing a hypothesis, and developing a theory, to explain or understand certain phenomena and then testing the hypothesis against reality. A particular hypothesis is considered superior to others when, through testing, it is shown to have more explanatory power than competing theories or hypotheses and when other scientists running the same testing regime can reproduce the results of the original test. Every theory or hypothesis must be disconfirmable in principle, such that, if the theory predicts that "A" will occur under certain conditions, but instead, "B" and sometimes "C" result, then the theory has problems. The more a hypothesis's predictions prove inconsistent with or diametericaly opposed to the results that occur during testing, the less likely the hypothesis is to be correct.

The theory that humans are causing global warming does not work this way. No matter what the climate phenomenon, if it can in someway be presented as being unusual by global warming alarmists, it is argued to be "further evidence of global warming," even if it contradicts earlier phenomena that were pointed to by the same people as evidence of global warming.

What the effects will be seem to depend on which scientist one consults and which model they use. In realm of climate change research, different models looking at the same phenomenon applying the same laws of physics with the same inputs produce dramatically varied results. Thus, one model says we can expect the polar ice sheets to melt, while another predicts the coming of the next ice age, or one model will forecast long-term drought in the Southwest, whereas another model predicts increased precipitation.

Don’t get me wrong, global warming may cause an ice age or planetary desertification, it may cause increased flash floods or more droughts and it may cause increased or decreased agricultural productivity--but it for each paired diametrically opposed prediction, it can’t cause both to occur at the same time, in the same place. How does one test or disprove a theory that is predicted to cause both an increase and a decrease in the water levels of the great lakes, or whose proponents warn that it will cause the polar ice sheets to melt raising sea levels, and bring about the next ice age?

This is not the realm of healthy scientific discovery where testability, evidence and proof are king, but rather the unhealthy province of a doctrinaire religious belief, where unquestioning, unwavering, faith and blind proselytizing rules the day.
 

z/m(Ret)

New Member
Feb 28, 2007
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Oil and Energy interests and Global Warming Contrarians - Friends of Science

- Friends of Science (FOS) took disclosed and undisclosed sums from oil and gas interests.
- Money was funneled through the Calgary Foundation, to the University of Calgary and on to the FOS though the “Science Education Fund.”
- Prof. Barry Cooper of the University of Calgary "set up a fund at the university dubbed the Science Education Fund. Donors were encouraged to give to the fund through the Calgary Foundation, which administers charitable giving in the Calgary area, and has a policy of guarding donors' identities. The Science Education Fund in turn provides money for the Friends of Science, as well as Tim Ball's travel expenses, according to Albert Jacobs, [spokesperson for the Friends of Science]." (As reported by Charles Montgomery in the Globe and Mail)
- Ref.: http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Friends_of_Science#Funding_Sources
 

JustBob

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Nov 19, 2004
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"Indeed, the typical approach taken by environmentalists is to revert to ad hominem attacks--criticizing the researchers’ motives or their funding sources rather than addressing the substance of their arguments."
 

z/m(Ret)

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Feb 28, 2007
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The facts, just the facts..............

JB,

Stating facts, not attacking anyone. If you believe that the information is not relevant, then you shouldn't worry about the facts being disclosed.
 
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z/m(Ret)

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Feb 28, 2007
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Speaking of Burnett's arguments.............

Where are the arguments? He rants yet presents no real argument:

"(...) that the idea that humans are causing global warming is really more akin to a religious belief--a revealed truth about human sins (fossil fuel use) and their consequences (all manner of calamities)--rather than a testable scientific explanation."

"(...) the theory seems to violate the scientific method by being unfalsifiable."

"This oft-repeated declaration has taken on the characteristic of a mystic chant or mantra to ward off further debate. It has caught on in the popular press and on Capitol Hill, but it could not be less true."

"Yet, when they don’t ignore the research entirely, all too often proponents of the theory label it as “junk science.” Indeed, the typical approach taken by environmentalists is to revert to ad hominem attacks--criticizing the researchers’ motives or their funding sources rather than addressing the substance of their arguments."

(...) “skeptic” is a term of opprobrium and to be labeled a skeptic is to be dismissed as a hack. Being a skeptic concerning global warming today is akin to being a heretic in the Middle Ages--you may not be literally burned at the stake, but your reputation will be put to flames."

And he goes on like that complaining that skeptics are persecuted or unfairly ignored. How argumentative are statements like "mystic chant or mantra"? Guilty as charged.
 
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