Petition for the decriminalization of sex work (English)

[E B Samaritano]

Re: Never Said Any Such Thing

Originally posted by EagerBeaver
Happy Dan,

I never said any such thing in any of my comments. All that I said or possibly suggested was that on a per capita basis, this white slave trade thing has become a big problem for Toronto LE authorities, bigger than it should be and probably bigger per capita than in USA cities, because of Canadian immigration policies. I never said that the problem does not exist in the USA or that there are no similar vermin in the USA. The LE problems in the USA cities are on a greater basis being caused by natives as opposed to immigrants. Predominately the organized crime in NYC that is being caused by illegal aliens overstaying their visas is in other areas such as fake identification rings and resulting credit card fraud, not in white slavery. Of course we are a much larger country than Canada in population, and where there are more apples there are going to be more bad apples, so it is easy to pick out this or that media report and draw sweeping conclusions, as opposed to focusing on actual LE issues and trends.

EB

Beaver,

I have to agree with you on this. Go outside of Quebec province and I'd estimate that 50% of the sex workers aren't legal immigrants. They may even have visas, but they are not landed immigrants and have no legal right to work. In the US, visas of any kind are difficult to obtain. If you arrive without one, you are deported to the country of your origin. In Canada, you clear customs quicker than many of us with proper documentation.

EBS

 

[Lawless]

US Visas

EBS

That's exactly what happened on 9/11!

Who are you kindding. What about Mexicans!!!

Please wake up!!

Lawless

 

[Happydan]

Re: Train

Originally posted by EagerBeaver
It is not silly, it is true. Connecticut is the wealthiest State in the USA on a per capita income basis. Many corporate heads like Jack Welch living in Fairfield County bring up the average dramatically. Many of the wealthier clients I have have illegal Mexican aliens working for them, as mentioned in my prior post. Have you ever been to Connecticut? The situation in California and Texas may be different - most illegals there provide cheap labor on farms. But you apparently have not read all of my post or did not pay attention because I actually agreed with EBS. It was Lawless who brought up illegals, not me. Go back and re-read the post. I think you read Lawless' post and thought it was mine.

I may have misspoke when I said child pornography. I suppose technically kidnapping children from other countries and bringing them into Canada to be used as "sex slaves" is "child pornography", although that term usually has a different meaning in terms of photos and videos being looked at by perverted old men.

I don't think you get it, Train. But I am not interested in exchanging insults with you. You are one of these guys who posts to say, "you are full of shit, that is not the way it is", but provides no real intelligent counter-analysis, just speculation and your own opposing opinion. In my trade we call it "shooting from the hip." I think probably MERB readers recognize it as such. I would rather be insulted by EBS who at least provides extremely intelligent rebuttal. If I am going to be insulted, make it worth my while.

Are you actually proud of this?

Hiring illegal alians to save a few bucks, because they work cheaper and harder, because they don't talk back for fear of reprisals? Of this you are proud? If normal hard working Americans don't take these jobs think of what the actual working conditions are, and then you talk about slavery in our country!

The slavery issues in TO is relatively new and is being addressed. What about your problems in CT? They aren't even looked on as being a problem? How many years (centuries) has this been going on, abusing people because they can't talk back!

Again you are proud of this?

 

[Lawless]

My Friend

EagerBeaver

Notwithstanding all the above, I am still pleased to have you as my neighbour.

Lawless

 

[Lawless]

USA - Canada

EagerBeaver

Thanks, it's a pleasure for us.

Lawless

p.s. Please help us to keep the prices reasonable; pay in Canadian$

 

[HughMaineATM]

Sometimes I feel the need to apologize for my fellow Americans. I can't figure out if it comes from too much exposure to Bush on TV, or if these are the folks that got Bush elected (sort of) in the first place -- but it seems like a bad case of take one fact in one cultural context and spin an entire universe from it.

I actually thought that the topic was the disparities in the current Quebec / Canadian law that compromise the safety and independence of people who have made the choice to be sex workers. I think they are the experts. If Annik and Ronnie and others connected with Stella who make their livelihoods in this arena suggest that things should change -- I listen. I actually think they are more expert on what gives them power and makes them feel safer and less harrassed than a bunch of American johns looking for a good deal by playing the foriegn exchange market.

-- Hugh

 

[ManAboutTown]

Hugh, one thing you do have to remember is the Canadian (and especially Quebecer) thought that all systems should be changed to benefit them, regardless of the effects on others.

Many people would like to see all "pay for play" sex acts decriminalized. Those people working in the industry who have to live always thinking they are about to get arrested for something stupid (with no real victim, unless you consider the girl or the client!) would like nothing more than to have things put straight, so they can work without problems.

However, there are major implications to this: First off, if prostitution was legalized without regulation, every other apartment building in Montreal would have an independant worker in it. Quite literally overnight, the city would become one large ever fluxing brothel. With unemployment at 8% and tons of people on welfare, I can easily see many girls (and guys) slipping into business for themselves. The legal aspects are the only thing that keeps some people from being an occasional worker.

So, then you have to have regulation. Medicals, licenses, zoning, rules for engagement, etc.

For Annick and her non-flakey friends, things would be much better. They could work openly, without fear of arrest, and without having to pay pimps or protection money. They could contact the police if they get a bad (read violent) date without worrying about explaining themselves. Things would be much better for them.

Guess what? You will still end up with girls, working for pimps, working outside the law, and everything that Annick's letter tries to address just doesn't work out, because people will want to work in areas not zoned, will want to work the streets, work in bars, whatever, and all of that would probably be illegal.

Don't get me started on the NIMBY factor (Not in my back yard) if the city tries to zone certain areas as "good for business"....

I would like to see how the sex workers would suggest that situation get handled.


MATt

 

[Lawless]

Merry Christmas

Merry Christmas to all of you.

And lets watch football for a change!!

Lawless

 

[HaywoodJabloemy]

Now that the federal election is over, this could be a good time to write to Members of Parliament to ask them to restart the committee that was examining prostitution laws.

New Zealand and much of Australia have decriminalized prostitution in recent years. I think they provide very relevant examples that you can suggest Canada follow. Their old laws were very much like Canada's current ones. New Zealand enacted these reforms one year ago after almost three years of committees and debates.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/storydisp...ection=&thesecondsubsection=&reportid=1162602

I also suggest pointing out that our current system has become very hypocritical and could easily be corrupt. Incalls, agencies, and massage parlours are for the most part tolerated and often licensed, despite obviously violating the criminal code. Similar ambiguous circumstances in Australia produced widespread corruption in at least two states. As callous as it sounds, that was a more important factor that led to decriminalization than concern for the safety of sex workers.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/storydisp...n=news&thesubsection=general&reportid=1162602

(from a New Zealand Member of Parliament during final debate) "The state licenses massage parlours, knowing they are fronts for prostitution...there is no morality, no consistency in that."

Some Canadian newspapers, including the Montreal Gazette and Edmonton Journal, have printed editorials advocating making paying for sex completely illegal, and have claimed that Sweden is a successful example of this. In fact it has made the situation in Sweden more dangerous.

http://www.petraostergren.com/english/studier.magister.asp

http://www.bayswan.org/swed/rosswed.html

 

[daydreamer41]

Re: Comprehension

Originally posted by StripperLover
EB & Train,

I re-read both your posts on this issue & to tell you BOTH you haven't carefully read each other's posts & that is based solely on your rebuttals to what was written prior.

EB,

When I read Train's rebuttal to some of your knowledge or claims on the issue, I gathered that he was trying to be as balanced as possible & acknowledged that he wasn't totally informed & only suggested that maybe you might want to admit that you weren't as well informed as you might think. Admitting it does a world of good & humility is attractive.

Train,

EB didn't say exactly what aspect of law enforcement that he currently derives his livelyhood from & it seems to me that you might have leaped to a conclusion without totally knowing that.



It seems to be correct that Canada's immigration laws are more lax than we Canadians might want (based on a recent poll) but in order for our population & tax base to grow Canada NEEDS immigration to pay for all that we as a country require especially with a growing & aging population. With such a small population of 30 million spread over this massive country there is no other solution than immigration. Some may say why do your own people provide an increased birthrate well in all western industrialized natins those born nationals aren't the ones replacing themselves but rather it's either the poor or immigrants who provide the increases. Canada with it's small economy in comparison to the US' cannot afford much more in the way of expenses & to screen those wishing to enter Canada legally or otherwise more than we already do would incur more resources than we already have & seeing as we are taxed to the hilt compared to our American friends we as a nation are caught between a rock & a hard place. It's only a matter of time that our American cousins will have to buy us all out for our natural resources & it would be cheaper now than a generation from now.

On a side note, I find these debates on the US Democratic Party's leadership race to be amusing to say the least. I'm not an advocate of higher taxes in Canada but it seems to me that the American politicians play to the ignorance of the general American public as they continually spew bs telling their fellow citizens that they are too highly tax already. In what context are Americans too highly taxed compared to what other western nation ? Bs sells & look who's selling it. Honesty will not get elected.

Gee, being an American, I have to rebutt Stripperlover. Taxes in the US are too high and taxes in Canada are obscene. Growth in any economy occurs when taxes are low. People have a chance to save more, spend more, creating more capital and demand. It is not bs, stripperlover. You sound brainwashed by your socialist politicians. Below is a link of comparison tax rates. It is difficult to compare tax rates because the US does not have a VAT tax, but we do have individual state income and sales taxes. NY tax is high.

http://www.worldwide-tax.com/index.asp#partthree

 

[daydreamer41]

Read the link I gave you, Stripperlover. The US has a higher rate on the top. You have higher state or provincial taxes. The lower tax rates are Singapore and Hong Kong. Before the Communists took over Hong Kong, Hong Kong had one of the best economies in the world. Singapore has a pretty good economy. So just because Canada and Europe is messed up with taxes, does not mean We have to be. We have medicare plus reasonable supplemental plans. I know no senior citizen who has squandered their life savings away in the US. You listen to leftist propaganda. And tell me, how good is the health care in Canada?