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Responsability of Bar management to alert LE ...

Halloween Mike

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Apr 19, 2009
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Ah ok thanks for the precision. In any case yes no matter the time or setting, this should had never happen and i hope the asshole will get the full imprisonement. I am all for drunken behaviors accepting as myself can become quite a dumb ass(not violent, but extremely stupid) when i drink too much, and would the guy had kill somebody by accident like both dudes fight, one end up head first on the concrete, die... this i could be a bit understanding since its firstly an accident. But attacking and stomping an old person like that completely gratiously... this deserve max imprisonement.
 

Merlot

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Hello all,

This story got me wondering:

...shoudn't the Bar be obligated to allert the police? Can they just wash their hands of the matter, letting him create havoc on the street?

Captain out!

I'd say it would depend on what kind of risk to others the bar owners and employees could be expected to know this drunk posed to others. That level of expectation would be might be hard to pin down since troublesome drunks in bars are fairly common. The more physically threatening or if he had a known record of more serious disturbance, the more an obligation would be on the bar. In the U.S. Expecting the bar to predict this guy or any guy would turn into a brutal animal and stomp a helpless random woman to death seems unreasonable beyond the expectation that the bar should report there might be some sort of trouble. I believe the current legal view is to legally emphasize more bar responsibility.

Well they are a strip club, do you really think these people care about society and others? Serioulsy they don't give a shit, they probably don't care that an old lady got killed, they're just happy it didn't happen in their club and/or that he got kicked out before messing too much. They probably used intimidation towards him which triggered an excess of aggressivity because of the feeling of being powerless.

Think about this statement. Does any depanneur, SAQ, restaurant or any business establishment really care a about "society and others" more than the generic bar or strip club. The last part of your statement sounds like a personal grievance more than neutral observation. It sounds like you have a personal grievance and want to blame the bar (or any bar) for instigating the patrons murder of a random person, even pushing him to kill the woman, which is way over the top when you make blame statements without any specific evidence. The brutal murder alone of a random elderly woman beyond the club indicates this guy was an animal...quite the reverse of your opinion.

If this guy had raised the roof in a restaurant or any other business, wouldn't the police have been called in? Then, why can Bars get off so easy? I repeat I'm not talking about the obnoxious drunk here but someone who displays overt violent behavior.

Agreed that the savage actions outside afterward of this animal indicate the bar should have been more responsible to get the police involved earlier. But who knows if he showed potentially dangerous behavior inside or got much worse because of being thrown out. Still, on the whole the unconscionable savage behavior outside indicates a situation inside that should have led to his arrest earlier. Still, that is just theory.

An act that merits ejections is rarely criminal, even if the police would intervene in non-criminal situations there is the consideration of holding a person against their will in a situation that is not criminal while waiting for police to arrive. SCs are not equipped to hold people, nor is staff in a position to search -

I'd tend to agree. Bars have certain legal responsibility in the U.S., but it seems legally tricky to impose the responsibility of holding an individual, at least unless there's a reasonably clear threat to others that seems difficult to define due to the problem of predicting what the real threat to others would be.

Not that i want to give the guy an excuse, but why the hell was an old 67 woman doing grocery at 4 AM !!! WTF !!!

Okay it's a much more unusual time, but because of unusual circumstances I've been forced to "shop" at this time, and I have been out so late for many reasons at such a time. Still, how does the hour lay any responsibility you imply on the woman for what a maniac did to her, which was brutal murder? If she was your family would you have considered writing your statement?

Overall: considering what this animal did it seems like there should have been cause to get the police involved as soon as possible, but that is still looking at the situation after the fact. It will be interesting to see how Canadian law handles this. In the U.S. the I think the bar would be highly implicated due to what I understand of legal expectations in most states regarding threatening clients.

:(

Merlot
 

Doc Holliday

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Sep 27, 2003
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"The incident prompts questions about the suspect’s mental health..."

No kidding! It was rather obvious that his mental health was already in poor shape considering he was extremely upset at being kicked out of Cleo's!!! He was obviously not only pissed drunk, but also court-certified crazy if you ask me! :D
 

eastender

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Jun 6, 2005
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The responsibility link between bars selling drinks and allowing patrons to leave and drive while intoxicated is relatively easy to establish when compared to acts of violence. Alleged felons will get bail even thought lawyers, prosecutors and judges have full or greater access to their behavior history than bouncers. The bailed felons have at times committed great acts of violence yet the legal systems protects its own with immunity should errors happen.

Holding bouncers to higher standards of responsibility than the courts is rather ..........
 

EagerBeaver

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The responsibility link between bars selling drinks and allowing patrons to leave and drive while intoxicated is relatively easy to establish when compared to acts of violence. ..

Bars get sued all the time under Dram Shop laws when their intoxicated patron leaves and causes an accident and is .08 or higher. Highest I recall of the ones I defended was .25. That gentleman had left a strip club and then caused an accident. In that case the bar was never sued, however, because the gentleman's auto insurance was sufficient to cover the damages, and he was 100% liable for injuries based on his negligent operation of his vehicle. So the bar and its bouncer "got off", despite unleashing a very intoxicated individual who was over 3 times the legal limit in CT.

In most cases it is hard for the bars, however. I defended a client who was arrested for DUI who blew a .10, really not very high at all. He claimed to me that just before closing he was fine and someone bought him a shot of some hard liquor. He did not want to insult the person who bought the shot, so he drank it, and he felt that shot pushed him over the .08. He also felt the cop targeted him because he was driving a Monster Truck (probably true). There is no way the bar would have stopped him from having a comp shot at closing. He probably was like .06 before he drank the shot.

Bouncers definitely have a tough job and with some bars it is too tough and they hire extra duty cops. Many bars I see getting sued have used extra duty cops either in addition to or in lieu of their own house bouncers on very busy Friday and Saturday nights.
 
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eastender

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It seems that most readers and posters in this thread are out on the streets, keeping late hours or in clubs as workers or patrons and have to get home after 3AM.

The idea is to get home safely. Perhaps exchanging ideas about club and street safety will make it safer for everyone. Mods if necessary fell free to start a new thread
 

MtlNewbie

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Jan 24, 2009
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Not that i want to give the guy an excuse, but why the hell was an old 67 woman doing grocery at 4 AM !!! WTF !!!

I have no idea of the exact details but it's very possible that she wasn't grocery shopping; seeing that she was of that age and Asian, a lot of old Asian women become paranoid and walk around with the bags all the time, which would be a little known fact if one was not familiar with old Asian ladies.
 

Sol Tee Nutz

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Apr 29, 2012
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Look behind you.
It should not matter what time anyone goes grocery shopping they should be safe from harm. People who get caught doing this to someone should be put in a general population holding cell and his other guests should be told what he did.
 

CaptainPicard

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Feb 28, 2004
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The owner of the Kingdom in a radio interview on the incident:

http://www.985fm.ca/audioplayer.php?mp3=185427

At no time did it occur to them to call 911 for a violent customer who even bites the doorman.
I remain convinced if police had been alerted earlier, the murder would have been averted.
He obviously displayed violent behavior.
Captain out!
 

Halloween Mike

Original Dude
Apr 19, 2009
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Okay it's a much more unusual time, but because of unusual circumstances I've been forced to "shop" at this time, and I have been out so late for many reasons at such a time. Still, how does the hour lay any responsibility you imply on the woman for what a maniac did to her, which was brutal murder? If she was your family would you have considered writing your statement?

I feel lately a lot of people take what i write in the wrong sense possible... and this is starting to annoy me really. :confused: When i writed...written... (???) my comment i was not aware of most of the circonstance, only having read this HERE on merb. I learned later on the news and such she was playing Mae Jong and was going back home at around Midnight. Secondly i never wanted to give any excuse to the guy, or whatever, but maybe its my towny side speaking here, but when you live in the big city you should be carefull. Im 6 foot tall, over 250 pounds, really not the favorite target to get attacked and rob or whatever and especially not to be sexually assaulted(lol), but still i am very carefull when i walk late in montreal, i try to remain in the light and the few times i had to walk at places that where a bit more risky(around hochelaga for exemple, when i was going back to a friend's place that was offering me a place to sleep after a show) i was very nervous and on my guard with my keys or a lighter in my hand in my pocket to be sure to be ready to swing a damaging punch if i was attacked.

Sometimes i go to the ATM in my small village at night, and i pull out huge ammount of cash when the next day im going to MTL cause i don't have time before taking the bus, and sometimes i just don't have time in the day, or i just forget, whatever, and still i feel nervous to walk with that much cash in my pockets. And its just a village. And i live 10 mins from the ATM...

There so much crazies in montreal... i love the place for some things like escorts, stores open late, lots of pawnshop and lots of bar/restaurant, i like being there on visit, but oh shit i wouldn't live there... ever. Too much nut case or simply people badly behaving because its montreal and if you act this way in montreal people won't even bother. I swear , i go to montreal and i see people act so weirdly... like talking to each other and not just "what am gonna eat tonight" but really having a conversation with an imaginary friend, once i saw a hot chick enter a metro station and spit the biggest and disgusting gurts i ever saw... i was like "WTF" but nobody else notice or care... Just in sherbrooke, wich is not as small as my village, there was a guy once talking to himself and acting very weirdly, people where noticing and some laughing and wondering wtf was happening... In montreal... people are so use to that they don't care...

All of this to say, i wouldn't walk at night if i was either a young cute lady or an old person, and even as i am right now, with my 6 foot 250+ pounds and knowing to fight(praticed various martial arts) i wouldn't take the chance to go in the dark alley or the risky spots.

Every week i hear on the news something happened in montreal, a couple months ago i heard on the news there was a dude shot dead somewhere and that night i was in montreal... really gave me a cold... big cities are dangerous and violents... thats what i wanted to point out in my post Merlot.

It should not matter what time anyone goes grocery shopping they should be safe from harm

Yes, and there shouldn't be war anywhere in the world, there shouldn't be any murder in mexico and the list goes on... sadly its not the case in the world we live in... but i agree with you on THEY SHOULD (be safe)
 
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