The Yankees Still Suck Baseball Salary Cap Poll

[eastender]

Well.......................

I spoke of an 8 year void between the Posada/Jeter era and the Cano/Cabrera era. Lowell did not come up during the void, but during the earlier era. I did not over look Cabrera. Soriano is a gray area, as he was purchased by the Yankees from the Japanese minor leagues. Johnson is hardly a player I'd consider a success.


What does this have to do with anything I said?


What does this have to do with any part of this entire thread to date, or are you trying to, as you often do, bolster your argument through obfuscation. ("If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bullshit." That strategy works with some, but I ain't buying.) I must confess that I don't understand the whole point of long term contracts in the NFL if they can be easily torn up by the clubs.


Or course they don't, but that couldn't be more irrelevant or your argument more specious. Having A-Rod in your lineup does significantly improve your chances of going into the playoffs and, since either player, regardless of salary, occupies one slot in the lineup, if you can toss the money his way, it's worth spending.

You drop Rivera from the era you specified to negate Soriano since both were free agents and not drafted.Rather transparent. Lowell was drafted in 1995 by the Yankees and arrived in the majors in 1998. Posada and Jeter were 1990 and 1992 draftees who made the majors in 1995. Three year gap does not make Lowell from the same era.

The 1951 Dodgers, 1964 Phillies, and 1978 Red Sox had the talent to win.1951Dodgers evidenced by the years thru 1956 although the arrival of Mays in late 1951 neutralized the big edge the Dodgers enjoyed in centerfield. The 1964 Phillies and 1978 Red Sox were throughly mismanaged and struggled for years afterwards.

Today 10 games in early August is not a big lead.If a key player goes down for a month or two the team will fade quickly.In 1963 the Yankees won 104 games and went to the World Series dispite the fact that Mantle missed 97 games and Maris missed 72. Remove the two best position players for the same number of games from any of the top 12 teams and the team will spiral downwards. No depth today.

That you do not understand the NFL model is not surprising. The guaranteed money up front protects the player while the ability to terminate protects the team. Often talented players are released because they do not fit into a defensive or an offensive scheme and both sides benefit because the team then may sign a player that fits their scheme while the player can go to a team where his talents mesh with the teams needs.This year the NFL cap is around $109 million and virtually all the teams will be up there.

The A-Rod point. Simple Ryan Zimmerman earns about $500,000 this year
with the Nationals. Trade them for each other. The Nationals would not improve their chances of making the play-offs 50 fold nor would Ryan Zimmerman decrease the Yankees chances of making the play-offs 50 fold.
So there is not a direct link between salary and your chances of making the play-offs.

Agree that having a player of A-Rod's talents improves a teams chance of making the play-offs,winning a World Series may be another issue.Looking a World Series winners since that is why the game is played the indications are that a distribution of the same salary over 2-3 players improves your chances while mitigating your downside in case of injury.

 

[eastender]

Glanville

You are correct about Jerry Glanville being the Houston coach. The run and shoot is not up there with the west coast or other successful offences. Cannot recall a team winning a Super Bowl with the run and shoot.

The Bills comeback was engineered by their back-up QB Frank Reich who brought different elements to the Bills offence. There is an adage in the NFL
that a back-up quaterback should not be able to beat you if you are prepared.

Glanville chose to live and die with the run and shoot.He did not have a bad weather offence.Glanville's teams where deficient in game preparation - Vegas bookies regularly used to drop 1 point from the odds on Glanville and Ryan coached teams. Also Glanville's teams were terrible at clock management.

 

[korbel]

Damn!

Ay Carumba...WHAT'S THIS...a Yankers fan favoring a salary cap. Damn! I thought I just saw pigs flying by my window. Do you realize you just committed both treason and heresy. Don't let Steinboner or mega-Cashman find out about this or they will boil your butt in a pot of Yankers blue.

The sky is falling...lol,

Korbel

 

[korbel]

No problem.

There's no problem with any of what you said. But try telling that to EagerBeaver or Eastender ( now that he isn't hiding behind EB any more). According to EB we who favor the cap are all communists you know...lol. That's bad because we currently outnumber the anti-cappers 14-4 in the vote so far. Anyway, I don't see Steingrabber as one who will be able to enjoy his wealth or business without finding some angle to meddle with the rules. I think he enjoys the current system and his financial advantage too much to let it slip away becauseof a thing like competitive integrity.

But as for you I am still amazed at your attitude. I may even have to think about taking your name off of my Yankee Hunting Season list of targets...lol...maybe.

Ta ta,

Korbel

 

[rumpleforeskiin]

You drop Rivera from the era you specified to negate Soriano since both were free agents and not drafted.Rather transparent. Lowell was drafted in 1995 by the Yankees and arrived in the majors in 1998. Posada and Jeter were 1990 and 1992 draftees who made the majors in 1995. Three year gap does not make Lowell from the same era.

The gap of which I speak was from 1997-2004, Lowell being on the cusp and the only major leaguer developed during the period. Soriano was not a free agent; his contract was purchased from Japan.

The 1951 Dodgers, 1964 Phillies, and 1978 Red Sox had the talent to win.1951Dodgers evidenced by the years thru 1956 although the arrival of Mays in late 1951 neutralized the big edge the Dodgers enjoyed in centerfield. The 1964 Phillies and 1978 Red Sox were throughly mismanaged and struggled for years afterwards.

I'd love to respond to this, but you don't seem to be making any point. Of course, these teams had the talent to win and don't. So what. A lot of teams have the talent to win. The Phillies struggled for decades both before and after, with little blips in 1950, 1964, 1980. The Red Sox were mismanaged almost without exception from 1919-2003. The only really good Dodger team that ever played in Brooklyn was the one Branch Rickey developed, 1948-1957. My point? Same as yours I suppose. None. (Aside here. Lee Lowenfish' new biography on Branch Rickey is well worth reading.)

That you do not understand the NFL model is not surprising.

I don't really follow the game. Violence punctuated by committee meetings. The closest attention I pay to football is not to drive anywhere near McGill Stadium when the Alouettes are playing a home game.

The A-Rod point. Simple Ryan Zimmerman earns about $500,000 this year with the Nationals. Trade them for each other. The Nationals would not improve their chances of making the play-offs 50 fold nor would Ryan Zimmerman decrease the Yankees chances of making the play-offs 50 fold.
So there is not a direct link between salary and your chances of making the play-offs.

You couldn't be more wrong here. If the Yanks are in a situation where they're in the playoffs by 10 games, as they were last year, then the difference between Zimmerman and A-Rod is meaningless. However, this year, where the difference between the Yanks making the playoffs or not is likely to be much smaller, having A-Rod increases the Yanks chance by about a zillion times. Without looking at the PECOTA figures, I'd just guess that A-Rod is worth about 4 more wins to the Yankees than Zimmerman on offense alone.

 

[eastender]

Thank You For Making My Point

The gap of which I speak was from 1997-2004, Lowell being on the cusp and the only major leaguer developed during the period. Soriano was not a free agent; his contract was purchased from Japan.


I'd love to respond to this, but you don't seem to be making any point. Of course, these teams had the talent to win and don't. So what. A lot of teams have the talent to win. The Phillies struggled for decades both before and after, with little blips in 1950, 1964, 1980. The Red Sox were mismanaged almost without exception from 1919-2003. The only really good Dodger team that ever played in Brooklyn was the one Branch Rickey developed, 1948-1957. My point? Same as yours I suppose. None. (Aside here. Lee Lowenfish' new biography on Branch Rickey is well worth reading.)


I don't really follow the game. Violence punctuated by committee meetings. The closest attention I pay to football is not to drive anywhere near McGill Stadium when the Alouettes are playing a home game.


You couldn't be more wrong here. If the Yanks are in a situation where they're in the playoffs by 10 games, as they were last year, then the difference between Zimmerman and A-Rod is meaningless. However, this year, where the difference between the Yanks making the playoffs or not is likely to be much smaller, having A-Rod increases the Yanks chance by about a zillion times. Without looking at the PECOTA figures, I'd just guess that A-Rod is worth about 4 more wins to the Yankees than Zimmerman on offense alone.

My point was about a DIRECT link. By waffling all over the place in your in your scenario you just made my point. You have shown a variable link. Similar to the value of a two of clubs in poker.It could be the least valuable or the most valuable depending on the hand.

You conveniently neglect my point about the games missed by Mantle and Maris in 1963, total of 169 games yet the Yankees had the depth without buying free agents to win the AL going away. A clear sign that parity was not a factor in that era as one team could still dominate without two of their best players for a total of 169 games.Today teams do not have such depth and we have a much higher degree of parity.Until a team clinches no lead is safe.

BTW you forgot about the Los Angeles Dodgers who had some pretty good teams and runs.

www.baseball-reference.com lists Soriano as a baseball FREE AGENT when he signed with the Yankees in 1998. Somehow I suspect they have more credibility than someone who starts splitting hairs and developing the "Cusp" theory.

 

[eastender]

Please Justify Your Assertion

1. The Yankees and Red Sox each went a decade without developing ONE significant player (zip between Jeter/Posada/Rivera and Cano/Wang and zip between Nomar and Youkilis/Papelbon), yet each team was in contention every year.

Please justify your assertion with with a numerical analysis - link to a page.

A draft or amateur free agent signings may be evaluated. For instance one method for evaluating an NHL team's draft of Entry players is the following:

Total Number of NHL Games played divided by the number of draft picks that the team had.

Example: Team A has 5 picks who played a total of 1500 NHL games
Team B has 8 picks who played a total of 1600 NHL games

Result: Team A had a return of 300 NHL games per pick.
Team B had a return of 200 NHL games per pick.

Once such a base is established various spin-offs may be undertaken per position per slot,etc.

Something independent that is NOT your opinion.

 

[rumpleforeskiin]

My point was about a DIRECT link. By waffling all over the place in your in your scenario you just made my point. You have shown a variable link. Similar to the value of a two of clubs in poker.It could be the least valuable or the most valuable depending on the hand.

You're obfuscating again. What the bejeesus is this supposed to mean.

You conveniently neglect my point about the games missed by Mantle and Maris in 1963, total of 169 games yet the Yankees had the depth without buying free agents to win the AL going away. A clear sign that parity was not a factor in that era as one team could still dominate without two of their best players for a total of 169 games.Today teams do not have such depth and we have a much higher degree of parity.Until a team clinches no lead is safe.

Certainly there is more parity today on the second economic tier than there was prior to the draft. Before the draft, baseball was still dominated by the Yankees and their ability to keep weaker teams afloat by buying their better players from them, offering larger bonuses, and offering the Yankee mystique. The Yankees 12 years in the desert, 1965-1976 was brought on by their delay in signing black players and the institution of the draft. From the institution of the draft until the inception of free agency, they were unable to dominate baseball through financial muscle. More proof that money talks.

BTW you forgot about the Los Angeles Dodgers who had some pretty good teams and runs.

What does this have to do with anything.

www.baseball-reference.com[/url] lists Soriano as a baseball FREE AGENT when he signed with the Yankees in 1998. Somehow I suspect they have more credibility than someone who starts splitting hairs and developing the "Cusp" theory.

Technicality. Hiroshima was compensated by the Yankees for Soriano, who was then released so the Yankees could sign him and avoid the complex procedure necessary to get his contract assigned. http://thebaseballcube.com/players/S/Alfonso-Soriano.shtml

 

[eastender]

Salary Data Base and Questions

Let's look at the MLB salary info - source USAToday, viewable at:

http://asp.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/salaries/totalpayroll.aspx?year=2007

Based on this data, the total amount of MLB player salaries for the 30 MLB teams is app. $2.478 BILLION ranging from the NY Yankees at $189,630,045 million down to the T.B. Devil Rays at $24,123,500 million.

Broken down further the average payroll per team is in the $81,600 million range. 7 teams are over $100 million, 12 teams are between $70 & 100 million
while 11 teams are between $24 & 70 million.

It is not responsible to discuss a "Salary Cap" without asking what the "Salary Cap" should be and the corollary question of should there be a "Salary Floor" for want of a better term.

There are a few options.Other numbers may be floated but they may be viewed as tweaks of the following:

1. $81,600 million taking the average.
2. somewhere in the $70-100 million range.
3. $109 million per year or imitating the NFL salary cap number.

Let's set the "Salary Floor" at 80%.On a "Salary Cap" of $100 million this would be $80 million. I doubt that a floor would be necessary given the public nature of salary caps and competition.

Those of you who asked the obvious question - How come the NFL can easily pay 32 x app.$109 million in total salary or about 35% more per team than MLB go to the head of the class.

Effectively the 32 NFL teams have a total payroll that is app $870 million greater than MLB's total. Obviously they have the money BUT most IMPORTANT of all they have a talent pool of players that creates a competitive balance, that is renewable and attractive. MLB does not have such a talent base. Compare the worst teams in each league. Teams like the Oakland Raiders readily have at least 20 NFL quality players while teams like the Washington Nationals or Tampa Bay feature rosters that are mainly tweeners - players who fill out rosters but are slightly better that Triple A calibre.

 

[eastender]

Direct Link vs Variable Link

The difference is as simple as the difference between will and could. There is a direct link called gravity that says,on earth, someone will fall to the ground if they jump out a window unimpeded. The link(s) you offered were variable. Once you start waffling and saying anywhere between a zillion and 4 games with additional qualifiers you do not have a direct link.

 

[rumpleforeskiin]

The difference is as simple as the difference between will and could. There is a direct link called gravity that says,on earth, someone will fall to the ground if they jump out a window unimpeded. The link(s) you offered were variable. Once you start waffling and saying anywhere between a zillion and 4 games with additional qualifiers you do not have a direct link.

One of my favorite buttons from the olden days read: eschew obfuscation. Obfuscate away; I'll eschew.

 

[rumpleforeskiin]

Based on this data, the total amount of MLB player salaries for the 30 MLB teams is app. $2.478 BILLION ranging from the NY Yankees at $189,630,045 million down to the T.B. Devil Rays at $24,123,500 million.

These are opening day numbers. Clemens adds another $18,000,000, give or take a few zillion.

 

[eastender]

Fairest Comparison

These are opening day numbers. Clemens adds another $18,000,000, give or take a few zillion.

Fairest comparison possible since every team starts with the same won / lost record,likewise for the comparison to the NFL.

 

[eastender]

Delay in Signing Black Players

Certainly there is more parity today on the second economic tier than there was prior to the draft. Before the draft, baseball was still dominated by the Yankees and their ability to keep weaker teams afloat by buying their better players from them, offering larger bonuses, and offering the Yankee mystique. The Yankees 12 years in the desert, 1965-1976 was brought on by their delay in signing black players and the institution of the draft.[/url]

Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.

1948 Cleveland beats the Red Sox in a play-off to go to the World Series. During the season Cleveland owner Bill Veeck signed Larry Doby and Satchel Paige two black players who were vital in theit success. Boston does not have any black players on their roster until the late 1950's when Pumpsie Green arrives, later Earl Wilson.

The NY Yankees signed or acquired in trade black players well before Boston.
Elston Howard in the early 1950's who developed into the AL MVP in 1963.
Vic Power and others came thru the Yankee system while others like Harry Simpson,Hector Lopez were acquired in trades.

 

[rumpleforeskiin]

Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.

1948 Cleveland beats the Red Sox in a play-off to go to the World Series. During the season Cleveland owner Bill Veeck signed Larry Doby and Satchel Paige two black players who were vital in theit success. Boston does not have any black players on their roster until the late 1950's when Pumpsie Green arrives, later Earl Wilson.

The NY Yankees signed or acquired in trade black players well before Boston.
Elston Howard in the early 1950's who developed into the AL MVP in 1963.
Vic Power and others came thru the Yankee system while others like Harry Simpson,Hector Lopez were acquired in trades.

And who was talking about Boston here? I mentioned above that the Sox, with a few blips, spent 80 years in the desert due to mismanagement, part of which was racism, another part of which was favoring mediocre players of Irish descent over better players of any other.

My point, which had nothing to do with the Red Sox, but which you conveniently but not surprisingly (you're not much of a listener) chose to ignore was that the one real period, prior to the inception of the draft, where the Yankees were not able to bludgeon the competition to death with dollars was the period after the aging of the dynasty of the '60s. This was, as I pointed out earlier, due to the Yankees being the 15th of 16 teams to integrate.

 

[eastender]

Data

And who was talking about Boston here? I mentioned above that the Sox, with a few blips, spent 80 years in the desert due to mismanagement, part of which was racism, another part of which was favoring mediocre players of Irish descent over better players of any other.

My point, which had nothing to do with the Red Sox, but which you conveniently but not surprisingly (you're not much of a listener) chose to ignore was that the one real period, prior to the inception of the draft, where the Yankees were not able to bludgeon the competition to death with dollars was the period after the aging of the dynasty of the '60s. This was, as I pointed out earlier, due to the Yankees being the 15th of 16 teams to integrate.

Looking at the the pre draft era(Bonus Baby era) the Yankee problem was that they signed and developed poorly.Also they did not want to tie up one or two major league roster spots since beyond a certain dollar amount "Bonus Babies" had to stay with the major league club for two years. Example some of their bonus signings included immortals like Frank Leja,Gil Blanco,Charlie Sands,Archie Moore while missing Brooks Robinson,Al Kaline,Harmon Killebrew,Sandy Koufax and others who went on to become HOF players after signing with weak clubs with the exception of Koufax who proved to be a successful Dodger gamble.

15th of 16th to integrate is not a factor since having a championship team makes it difficult to bring up unproven players of any colour. Promising players of all races in the non-draft/post Jackie Robinson era tended towards the teams who offered not only money but the quickest route to the majors.

As for integration during the 1965-75 era, the Yankees had more black players. 1965 7 vs 3 for Boston, 1967 both with 7, 1975 11 vs 6 for Boston.
Granted that bad teams will cycle thru more players during a season than good teams but those are the raw numbers. The Yankees problem was that they simply had bad players regardless of colour during that era.

 

[rumpleforeskiin]

As for integration during the 1965-75 era, the Yankees had more black players. 1965 7 vs 3 for Boston, 1967 both with 7, 1975 11 vs 6 for Boston. Granted that bad teams will cycle thru more players during a season than good teams but those are the raw numbers. The Yankees problem was that they simply had bad players regardless of colour during that era.

I feel like I'm talking to a wall. (Maybe I am.) Could you kindly explain what the Red Sox' delay in employing players of color has to do with the fact that the Yankees slightly shorter delay in employing same is the primary reason the Yankees were unable to buy championships between 1964 and 1977?

 

[eastender]

Simple

I feel like I'm talking to a wall. (Maybe I am.) Could you kindly explain what the Red Sox' delay in employing players of color has to do with the fact that the Yankees slightly shorter delay in employing same is the primary reason the Yankees were unable to buy championships between 1964 and 1977?

You bash the Yankees without explanation. Since you seem to have a better grasp of the Red Sox then other MLB teams I use them as a counterpoint to provide a historic perspective on an era.

Effectively I am comparing the 15th and 16th of the teams to sign players of colour since obviously they are the closest. Which illustrates my point that it does not matter how soon,how often,how much you spend,etc. It reduces simply to how well you do it.

Simply in the era in question under CBS the Yankees did not do anything very well.They did not replace aging staff well - scouts,instructors,coaches,etc all down the line.Ironically in 1972, before Steinbrenner,I believe that the Expos had superior TV/Radio revenues than the Yankees.

Speaking of walls - still waiting for you to submit requested draft data and looking forward to your "Salary Cap" number which is after all the the genesis
of the thread. Provide the data and the cap number.

 

[z/m(Ret)]

Rumple and Eastender,

I disagree with you both, but I don't really have the time to get into it. (Crap! They're smarter than me!)

 

[rumpleforeskiin]

Rumple and Eastender,

I disagree with you both, but I don't really have the time to get into it. (Crap! They're smarter than me!)

If you disagree with Eastender, then can I assume that you know what he's talking about? If you do, please fill me in. What draft data and what does draft data have to do with this discussion, other than to facilitate EE's continued fascination with obfuscation? And what does a salary cap "number" have to do with believing in the concept of a salary cap, other, of course, than for EE to continue to purvey his fascination with a) obfuscation and b) the sound of his own voice, particularly when he has no real insight to share? Yawn. Can I please get some sleep now? Tag. You're it, Ziggy. Thread (and, by inference, EE) is all yours.