Total entrapment!!!
- Thread starter El Loco
- Start date
They are asking if they want the services of a minor prostitute, I have no issue if that is the case, entrapment or not.
I think you have to see over that. Yes juvenile prostition is wrong and they should be arrested if that was what they where looking for. But reading the article its not what it appears to me. They even mention in the article the accused won't be charged with juvenile prostitution.
It says CERTAIN of the potential clients where offered the services of a minor.
So i think they are being charged under regular prostitution charges and from what i pick from the article again, they simply answered an ads for a regular SP.
That would mean sting operations are actually going in Quebec City. This could also happen to MTL.
In any case, if they where after the services of a minor, its a good thing they got arrested. But if they where just offered those services and they refused them, but got arrested anyway cause agreeing to see an adult prostitute, then its not good.
The article is very short and does not have much infos in it.
It says CERTAIN of the potential clients where offered the services of a minor.
So i think they are being charged under regular prostitution charges and from what i pick from the article again, they simply answered an ads for a regular SP.
That would mean sting operations are actually going in Quebec City. This could also happen to MTL.
In any case, if they where after the services of a minor, its a good thing they got arrested. But if they where just offered those services and they refused them, but got arrested anyway cause agreeing to see an adult prostitute, then its not good.
The article is very short and does not have much infos in it.
HM this came out in the news a few months ago when they got caught. The add they were lured to specifically mentioned that the girl were under 18. So basically the police targeted guys who respond to adds for minors. I am happy they did. This is a warning and wake up call to all of us to stay away from underage girl. In fact, for me, stay away from under 20 year old girl (of course when I am not fooled).
Cheers,
Cheers,
Once reached the venue, some potential clients would have been offered the services of minor prostitutes by the double agents. They will not, however, have to answer accusations of child prostitution.
The above is the English version... Now I could be wrong but I am guessing that the ones charged are the ones who said yes to the underaged option.
The above is the English version... Now I could be wrong but I am guessing that the ones charged are the ones who said yes to the underaged option.
In October, there was an article about the police operation in Le Journal de Quebec (http://www.journaldequebec.com/2016/10/24/operation-contre-la-prostitution-juvenile).
In sum: police place ad for prostitute with no mention or hint of underage girl. Men respond to ad and go to a location. Just as men are about to meet girl, they are told that girl is "17" but "experienced." Some of the men seem willing to go ahead with the deal anyway. Police arrest them and get great PR for fighting underage prostitution. Lives of men (who had no intention of meeting an underage prostitute and never actually met any prostitute of any age group) are ruined. Great work SPVQ!!!
Here is a translation of part of the article:
...Criminal lawyer Christian Bélanger, who is defending one of the individuals arrested during the round-up, gave details of the operation while questioning the tactics of the SPVQ that he described as "police entrapment."
According to his client, he went to an address to obtain the services of an adult escort after consulting a website. It was only after he arrived there, just before entering the room, that a lady told him that the prostitute was 17 years old, but had "a lot of experience." When Mr. Bélanger's client entered the room the police officers arrested him for sexual solicitation of a minor.
This way of conducting the operation "annoys" the lawyer. "Yes, initially, he just wanted an adult escort, he was not pursuing minors," says Bélanger. "It's at that moment of desirte that a guy is most vulnerable." He addded that the website made no mention of the possibility of soliciting the sexual services of a minor.
He also believes that there was never any solicitation of a minor from his client since "the opportunity was created by the police. That's clear." The lawyer intends to challenge the SPVQ's practice, especially since such an offense entails a minimum sentence of six months in prison. In response, the SPVQ states that the operation respects a "legal framework with legal technologies".
In sum: police place ad for prostitute with no mention or hint of underage girl. Men respond to ad and go to a location. Just as men are about to meet girl, they are told that girl is "17" but "experienced." Some of the men seem willing to go ahead with the deal anyway. Police arrest them and get great PR for fighting underage prostitution. Lives of men (who had no intention of meeting an underage prostitute and never actually met any prostitute of any age group) are ruined. Great work SPVQ!!!
Here is a translation of part of the article:
...Criminal lawyer Christian Bélanger, who is defending one of the individuals arrested during the round-up, gave details of the operation while questioning the tactics of the SPVQ that he described as "police entrapment."
According to his client, he went to an address to obtain the services of an adult escort after consulting a website. It was only after he arrived there, just before entering the room, that a lady told him that the prostitute was 17 years old, but had "a lot of experience." When Mr. Bélanger's client entered the room the police officers arrested him for sexual solicitation of a minor.
This way of conducting the operation "annoys" the lawyer. "Yes, initially, he just wanted an adult escort, he was not pursuing minors," says Bélanger. "It's at that moment of desirte that a guy is most vulnerable." He addded that the website made no mention of the possibility of soliciting the sexual services of a minor.
He also believes that there was never any solicitation of a minor from his client since "the opportunity was created by the police. That's clear." The lawyer intends to challenge the SPVQ's practice, especially since such an offense entails a minimum sentence of six months in prison. In response, the SPVQ states that the operation respects a "legal framework with legal technologies".
I think to be entrapment they need to do more than create an opportunty. The police has to go beyond an offer and actually do more to convince the person to go ahead with a crime. Saying that the guy is ''vulnerable to desire'' at the time is a lame excuse.
What is sad about these operation is that this doesn't actually help anyone who is being exploited. Stings operations had a certain superficial use when it was about public nuisance in certain areas, but this is irrelevant for helping underage people.
What is sad about these operation is that this doesn't actually help anyone who is being exploited. Stings operations had a certain superficial use when it was about public nuisance in certain areas, but this is irrelevant for helping underage people.
Une anecdote !
A mes débuts comme Booker on recevais des appels avec des demandes étrange
La question étant à tu une filles de 18 ans qui a l'air jeune l'interlocuteur posais la question sans rire .
Au plaisir
Booker
A mes débuts comme Booker on recevais des appels avec des demandes étrange
La question étant à tu une filles de 18 ans qui a l'air jeune l'interlocuteur posais la question sans rire .
Au plaisir
Booker
I presume that all those who turned away when told the sex worker was seventeen were let to leave without identification and that those arrested were those who got in the room after being told the sex worker was seventeen. I don't give a shit about them if and only if it's not entrapment i.e. the message about the age was loud and clear and no other means were used to incite the potential client to go in. I'm not a lawyer but if these precautions were taken by LE, I doubt that the entrapment defence will work.
But then what about the decision not to prosecute them for accepting sexual services from a minor ? I guess the prosecutor (DPCP) considered that the huge consequences for the accused would have been disproportionate considering it was a police operation and that adding the sentence for soliciting sexual services with having the names published in the newspaper was hard enough. If so, I would agree.
So why is Québec's Projet Lune, with the support of Montréal's Stella, upset? They feel that all sex workers are targeted with such fear tactics and that the quasi absence of sex trafficking in Québec City does not justify such operations which impact their revenus. They also accuse the SPVQ to target hotels that a relatively safe space for sex work. Finally, they disagree with impromptu visits by LE disguising as clients to interrogate them on their personal lives. It's intrusive and it's a loss of time and money for which they are not compensated. They did such visits in Québec last year. It's a new trend in police methods that we see everywhere in Canada: the salvation police acting in the middle of the totally irrational human trafficking moral panic. On this last cause of irritation, there is no consensus among sex workers in Québec City as in Montreal. Some will tell you they agree with th purpose, fighting abuses, the means, impromptu visits and that it makes them feel more secure because LE tells them them they are there to protect them, not to arrest them. Others feel totally humiliated.
Why target the hotels? The LE perspective differs a little bit. Dealing with minors is the main objective and they will use all the spectra of means to do this job. But that has always been and very few people will criticize them on that ground. Apart from that, they know exactly what is going in the streets, in mp's and in agencies. It's all under control. You'll find some minors on the streets but overall no trafficking and very few cases of pimping.
What's left? Where else do sex work happen? Some in private homes (both incall and outcall) and the rest in hotels. Traditionally it was mainly local indies who worked in hotels. LE knew all of them by their first name if I could say so. This indy market is unstable and unpredictable in Québec City because it's very small. Just one or two leaving or arriving change the market. At the moment, the demand exceeds by far the offer locally. This shortage will be filled one way or the other, most likely in short term by travelling sex workers. In theory, this could be a source of concern for LE because they know nothing about travellers and because it's the ground where you will find trafficking (trafficking, for those who still gives importance to the meaning of words, involves movement).
In theory, because there is no sign of it happening. At the moment, this market is filled by higher end indy sex workers from Montreal, Toronto and few other places in Canada, people who, far from being exploited, are smart enough to benefit from market opportunities. I doubt the SPVQ goes that far in its analysis, but if they did, they would try to calm down everybody instead of doing such publics relations stunts.
But then what about the decision not to prosecute them for accepting sexual services from a minor ? I guess the prosecutor (DPCP) considered that the huge consequences for the accused would have been disproportionate considering it was a police operation and that adding the sentence for soliciting sexual services with having the names published in the newspaper was hard enough. If so, I would agree.
So why is Québec's Projet Lune, with the support of Montréal's Stella, upset? They feel that all sex workers are targeted with such fear tactics and that the quasi absence of sex trafficking in Québec City does not justify such operations which impact their revenus. They also accuse the SPVQ to target hotels that a relatively safe space for sex work. Finally, they disagree with impromptu visits by LE disguising as clients to interrogate them on their personal lives. It's intrusive and it's a loss of time and money for which they are not compensated. They did such visits in Québec last year. It's a new trend in police methods that we see everywhere in Canada: the salvation police acting in the middle of the totally irrational human trafficking moral panic. On this last cause of irritation, there is no consensus among sex workers in Québec City as in Montreal. Some will tell you they agree with th purpose, fighting abuses, the means, impromptu visits and that it makes them feel more secure because LE tells them them they are there to protect them, not to arrest them. Others feel totally humiliated.
Why target the hotels? The LE perspective differs a little bit. Dealing with minors is the main objective and they will use all the spectra of means to do this job. But that has always been and very few people will criticize them on that ground. Apart from that, they know exactly what is going in the streets, in mp's and in agencies. It's all under control. You'll find some minors on the streets but overall no trafficking and very few cases of pimping.
What's left? Where else do sex work happen? Some in private homes (both incall and outcall) and the rest in hotels. Traditionally it was mainly local indies who worked in hotels. LE knew all of them by their first name if I could say so. This indy market is unstable and unpredictable in Québec City because it's very small. Just one or two leaving or arriving change the market. At the moment, the demand exceeds by far the offer locally. This shortage will be filled one way or the other, most likely in short term by travelling sex workers. In theory, this could be a source of concern for LE because they know nothing about travellers and because it's the ground where you will find trafficking (trafficking, for those who still gives importance to the meaning of words, involves movement).
In theory, because there is no sign of it happening. At the moment, this market is filled by higher end indy sex workers from Montreal, Toronto and few other places in Canada, people who, far from being exploited, are smart enough to benefit from market opportunities. I doubt the SPVQ goes that far in its analysis, but if they did, they would try to calm down everybody instead of doing such publics relations stunts.
Funny story. But when a girl ask you to bring her something like chocolate bars you know all will be fine
LE would never do that! Cheers,
It is entrapment...
There is no doubt about it that this is entrapment. Now, if the police were trying to catch jihadis who are interested in setting off a dirty bomb or a bomb or commit mass murder or to catch anyone to commit mass murder I would be all for entrapment. But we are talking about horned up males that are being offered a last minute bate and switch with a 17 year old. Yes, it is a crime but how severe is this crime? Be honest. we are not talking about death or heroin addiction here. We are talking about one guy paying 200$ for an orgasm with a virtual 17 year old. Like Gugu said, how big of a problem is this really? Are girls dropping out of school and running off with pimps to do this in Quebec at alarming rates? Or is this good PR for civilians? Why not go out and catch bad guys?
I know what Patron is talking about. What he has described has happened to me too. It happens like this....You have been waiting all week sometimes two weeks to see some Indy that you have confirmed by e-mail and texts and phone. Then, at the last minute, she disappears (= found a better deal). You have stayed an extra day in some crappy city just to see her. You have a room and a bottle of wine etc....In Montreal this just a disappointment. Even in Vegas this is just a disappointment. You can recover. In the rest of the USA you start to make some bad decisions. You start to plow through the backpage online adds. You are vulnerable. I will not do this anymore.
I have never knowingly had a session with a 17 year old nor have I ever been offered a date or tried to seek out a 17 year old. I have asked for the I.D. of a girl in Brazil twice (the hotels ID them anyway) but I have never had to refuse a girl based on the girl being a minor. If I would have walked into this I would have said no...although I would not have put myself in this position in the first place. When I was younger and less wise, I would have been more vulnerable to these tactics.
There is no doubt about it that this is entrapment. Now, if the police were trying to catch jihadis who are interested in setting off a dirty bomb or a bomb or commit mass murder or to catch anyone to commit mass murder I would be all for entrapment. But we are talking about horned up males that are being offered a last minute bate and switch with a 17 year old. Yes, it is a crime but how severe is this crime? Be honest. we are not talking about death or heroin addiction here. We are talking about one guy paying 200$ for an orgasm with a virtual 17 year old. Like Gugu said, how big of a problem is this really? Are girls dropping out of school and running off with pimps to do this in Quebec at alarming rates? Or is this good PR for civilians? Why not go out and catch bad guys?
I know what Patron is talking about. What he has described has happened to me too. It happens like this....You have been waiting all week sometimes two weeks to see some Indy that you have confirmed by e-mail and texts and phone. Then, at the last minute, she disappears (= found a better deal). You have stayed an extra day in some crappy city just to see her. You have a room and a bottle of wine etc....In Montreal this just a disappointment. Even in Vegas this is just a disappointment. You can recover. In the rest of the USA you start to make some bad decisions. You start to plow through the backpage online adds. You are vulnerable. I will not do this anymore.
I have never knowingly had a session with a 17 year old nor have I ever been offered a date or tried to seek out a 17 year old. I have asked for the I.D. of a girl in Brazil twice (the hotels ID them anyway) but I have never had to refuse a girl based on the girl being a minor. If I would have walked into this I would have said no...although I would not have put myself in this position in the first place. When I was younger and less wise, I would have been more vulnerable to these tactics.
I don't really agree Hungry. Yes it is entrapment. But I am all for it because the focus was really on underage girl. You need to remember that these guys are probably seeking girls even younger then that. To me, this is all about catching the bad guys and leaving regular johns who seek girl at least 20 and older alone.
Cheers,
Maybe you are correct. I just don't trust them. I do not have any faith that they are only interested in protecting minors. I believe that there are a lot of zealots that just want to abolish the hobby. I have seen first hand prosecuting attorneys make stupid decisions to get conviction rates up and police interested in getting the "collar" make bad busts etc. Worst of all I have seen Civilians as well as the hobby community rationalize for the police and the courts. It is natural to do this. We don't want to believe that the police and our government wouldn't infringe on basic civil rights of their citizens.
Remember all the busts that happened in Montreal? I remember how my favorite agency was shaken down and, as a result, disbanded. A girl that ended up at a different agency heard how the police busted an agency that was involved in trafficking and they were just making the rounds and threatening and questioning to make sure that wasn't going on. Did they bust any agencies for trafficking or for using underage prostitutes or did they just end up harassing and scaring people?
Remember all the busts that happened in Montreal? I remember how my favorite agency was shaken down and, as a result, disbanded. A girl that ended up at a different agency heard how the police busted an agency that was involved in trafficking and they were just making the rounds and threatening and questioning to make sure that wasn't going on. Did they bust any agencies for trafficking or for using underage prostitutes or did they just end up harassing and scaring people?
I trust them. Remember LE here in Quebec is quite different from the states. A bit softer for sure.
I personally know a police criminal investigator (any crime beside murder) for north of Montreal region and let me tell you they really don't give a shit about the hobby unless is involved: drugs, underage girls, pimps
I simply think that any action targeted towards underage girl is actually good for the hobby in the long run.
Cheers,
I personally know a police criminal investigator (any crime beside murder) for north of Montreal region and let me tell you they really don't give a shit about the hobby unless is involved: drugs, underage girls, pimps
I simply think that any action targeted towards underage girl is actually good for the hobby in the long run.
Cheers,
It gets political on this side of the border. They mean well in general but the road to hell is paved with good intentions.
Read Life and Fate: Remember, half the people in the gulag were political prisoners. Everyone on the outside rationalized that they must have done something and publicly you better had expressed some moral outrage toward these people or you were next. Hell, many of the people in the gulag thought that they were there by mistake but everyone else must have done something wrong. This herd mentality is what I find so dangerous.
Once upon a time I belonged to this institution. One day there was a huge purge on inappropriate use of the internet access. Several people were fired. There was a huge rumor that when the hammer went down that there were sheriff deputies lined up to take people off to jail for kiddie porn. Everyone believed this. This notion was crapola!!!! There was no one watching kiddie porn and no arrests but somehow everyone was willing to believe this crap. Why? Because it justified the massive upheaval of our operations for this witch hunt. Why on else would this institution intact this costly and unproductive purge? And by the way, all those that were watching gay porn got their job back.
...Oh, and Patron, if someone tells you to stop off and buy donuts run like hell.
Read Life and Fate: Remember, half the people in the gulag were political prisoners. Everyone on the outside rationalized that they must have done something and publicly you better had expressed some moral outrage toward these people or you were next. Hell, many of the people in the gulag thought that they were there by mistake but everyone else must have done something wrong. This herd mentality is what I find so dangerous.
Once upon a time I belonged to this institution. One day there was a huge purge on inappropriate use of the internet access. Several people were fired. There was a huge rumor that when the hammer went down that there were sheriff deputies lined up to take people off to jail for kiddie porn. Everyone believed this. This notion was crapola!!!! There was no one watching kiddie porn and no arrests but somehow everyone was willing to believe this crap. Why? Because it justified the massive upheaval of our operations for this witch hunt. Why on else would this institution intact this costly and unproductive purge? And by the way, all those that were watching gay porn got their job back.
...Oh, and Patron, if someone tells you to stop off and buy donuts run like hell.
Even tough personally i wouldn't take the risk of seeing somebody that openly says there 17, because of legal concern, i tend to question the reasoning for doing this by the police and the moral aspect of it. I mean what is the difference between a girl that just turned 18 2 weeks ago and one that is 17 but will get her 18 in 2 weeks? Do you think in 1 month she will suddenly be more mature and different? The difference is only a legal one to be honest... And in the heat of the moment of a john being horny and expecting a date, i can totally understand him for being tempted to go with it. Especially an ocasional john or someone that do not take precaution like some of us do.
If they want to catch pedophiles wouldn't they be better to mention a 14/15 years old girl? I may be wrong on this but i think if you do not exceed a certain age gap, and you date a 16+ in your personal live it is legal. Like i said i could totally be wrong but i think i heard that somewhere.
If they want to catch pedophiles wouldn't they be better to mention a 14/15 years old girl? I may be wrong on this but i think if you do not exceed a certain age gap, and you date a 16+ in your personal live it is legal. Like i said i could totally be wrong but i think i heard that somewhere.
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