We are not Criminals
- Thread starter Fred Zed
- Start date
It would be beneficial if a well respected high profile attorney was retained to push back against the Nordic model and argue for legalization. This is not about the exploitation of women, indeed this is about the rights of consenting adults to do what they would like to do without the government making either party criminals. Tax and regulate this - do not make either party a criminal.
If it is taxed it is a legal enterprise, if it becomes a legal enterprise an SP must service all clients regardless of age, gender, race, handicap, sexual identity etc etc etc.
That's going to happen eventually [refusal of a client] and then agencies and independent ladies are going to get sued. In fact, I think that is the plan going forward. To reduce "prostitution" by legalizing it and then making it an extremely unattractive business financially. Escorting will continue, but, if it is given legal status under a Canadian model ... it's not going to be as vibrant and your choices are going to be slim after half a decade or so.
Either way.. Lawyers are going to make good money on this.
I don't think so. Like in independent work, people are allowed to take the contracts they want and reject others for whatever reason they want to state (other than discrimination). Even if I have enough money to pay an artist, I can't force him to perform for me if he doesn't want to. Personnally I would prefer decriminalization with as little legislation as possible, but I'd be happy with legalization.
About the WANC, it would be good to have clients come out and be public about that (like Chester Brown who wrote ''Paying for it''). But abolitionists don't listen to the sex workers themselves, so clients have even less credibility.
For the sex workers, it's their work and income while most clients and merb members are occasional. Overall, the clients have a lot less at stake and less incentive to jeopardize their private lives by getting directly involved.
Actually no, you cannot refuse contracts for any reason if you are an independent worker that pays taxes. If a person decides to sue you, you must provide reasonable grounds to the court as to explain (legally) why you refused to provide whatever service it is, to the person you refused. Race, religion, handicap etc are not 'reasonable grounds' under the laws of Canada for a legal enterprise.
Also if the person writes on ann123 for example he/she does "Not serve handicap/race/gender/" that person is liable to face civil penalties. She or he may also be liable criminal penalties as well such as "incitement to racial hatred" for example... since the definition is pretty broad (Section 319 cc).
And if it is legalized they will create a bureaucracy to handle it and they will do "investigations" - all really to shut-down most prostitution in Canada which is all this stuff is really about.
I too would just prefer decriminalization, or heck, even stay where we are now - where unless there are drugs or minors involved... No one seems to really care.
Luck3069 makes a valid point; are we pro-active enough?? Certainly the merb administration is trying it's best,but I believe a high profile competent attorney who represents the industry is the way to go; of course he or she will have to be paid but it should not be that difficult to figure out a way for "the industry" to cover the expense
blkone, in countries where it's legalized, prostitutes can negotiate contracts with the clients. Even though they probably can't reject someone outright based on discrimination, it's easy enough to find any 100 reasons why you can't agree on the terms and therefore could not do business. It's not like serving drinks in a bar.
He forgot to add where the client is taxed. Prostitution isn't illegal because of it's morality. It's illegal because...
The State does not get a cut of the money. That's the issue. If they could figure out a way to create some sort of Escort-Register and Payment system with a dual receipt system, trust me, it would be made legal that very day.
"Consent" means nothing, his argument is like Employers and Employees "consenting" to being paid under the table, as if consent alone makes that legal.
The only way prostitution will be made legal, without strings, is when the State can get their share 95% of the time.
Oh and another thing Prostitution sort of messes with the inflation of a nation since taxation is a way to reduce the supply of money in circulation. It's probably minimal, but, that's still another reason why Prostitution is 'illegal.'
The State does not get a cut of the money. That's the issue. If they could figure out a way to create some sort of Escort-Register and Payment system with a dual receipt system, trust me, it would be made legal that very day.
"Consent" means nothing, his argument is like Employers and Employees "consenting" to being paid under the table, as if consent alone makes that legal.
The only way prostitution will be made legal, without strings, is when the State can get their share 95% of the time.
Oh and another thing Prostitution sort of messes with the inflation of a nation since taxation is a way to reduce the supply of money in circulation. It's probably minimal, but, that's still another reason why Prostitution is 'illegal.'
Yes, but people have been sued for racial discrimination in these countries and the clients have won. If your industry is LEGAL you must follow THE LAW. The State does not give a damn about your preferences really, it's finances that matter. When something is made legal a budget projection is drawn up, that's what matters, not the personal preferences of people.
The main problem with government control (like if they are forced to get a license) is that most escorts would prefer working under the table, for tax issues but also for privacy reasons. Many would still want to keep it secret from their friends/relatives. It would create the same problems as prohibition. People should be allowed to do it privately. Like gambling: if you go the the casinos, it's regulated, but you're still allowed to play for money in your house with your friends.
A lot of hobbyists have a preference for using SP's because they do not want, are incapable, or have a preference for no strings attached companionship. Does that make it legal? Why not? Do you really think the State is all moral and cares who you're seeing? No.
The Hobbyist is a criminal in the eyes of the State because he is purchasing a service or a good without paying a tax. He is also "technically" inflating the money supply by repeating this behavior. But, the main reason is the purchase of a service or good without paying a tax to the State.
You really think they care about an SP's preferences if they decide to make it legal under a new Canadian model which has to be assented to by Her Majesty Elizabeth II which automatically makes the legislation fall under the criminal code? No.
Laws are about money, not morals.
The Hobbyist is a criminal in the eyes of the State because he is purchasing a service or a good without paying a tax. He is also "technically" inflating the money supply by repeating this behavior. But, the main reason is the purchase of a service or good without paying a tax to the State.
You really think they care about an SP's preferences if they decide to make it legal under a new Canadian model which has to be assented to by Her Majesty Elizabeth II which automatically makes the legislation fall under the criminal code? No.
Laws are about money, not morals.
I agree. But, I don't think that's what they're going to do. SP's are not going to be allowed to inflate the money supply and at the same time not pay a cut to the State. I just do not see that happening.
I hope I'm wrong because I can already see what they plan to do to our hobby through "legislation."
They will be required to get a standard license to operate a business in whatever province they are in. If, they choose to continue without the license and work 'under the table', they will be guilty of tax evasion, operating without a license etc. They could do it, but, with a very small loyal group because outright advertising, online or otherwise, would end up bad for the SP.
Actually, no you're not. Gambling outside of a regulated institution for money is patently illegal in Canada (201) (202) (203).
People do it anyways, but, it is illegal.
Ok. I did not know (I never gamble). Thanks for that.
The complexity with prostitution is that sex itself is not regulated. You can have sex with anyone willing to do it. Millions of people are having sex every day. How do the police prove it was done for money? Unless it's done very blatantly or in a clearly commercial setting, it's hard to know. Criminalizing clients would even be discriminatory against poor people, in my opinion. A poor man can only afford junkies off the street. Any middle class man with a job can afford an escort where criminality is harder to prove and risks much lower. And a very rich man has no problem getting all the mistresses he wants. That's not even considered prostitution, because he just happens to be helping them financially instead of actually paying them. And because he's rich it can be easier for him to abuse them with impunity if he wants to.
The complexity with prostitution is that sex itself is not regulated. You can have sex with anyone willing to do it. Millions of people are having sex every day. How do the police prove it was done for money? Unless it's done very blatantly or in a clearly commercial setting, it's hard to know. Criminalizing clients would even be discriminatory against poor people, in my opinion. A poor man can only afford junkies off the street. Any middle class man with a job can afford an escort where criminality is harder to prove and risks much lower. And a very rich man has no problem getting all the mistresses he wants. That's not even considered prostitution, because he just happens to be helping them financially instead of actually paying them. And because he's rich it can be easier for him to abuse them with impunity if he wants to.
Guys, let's not get too complicated here.
This is not OUR business. We are the clients, not the providers. Let the sex workers negotiate their conditions. They are able to talk for themselves. It is their business. If the government wants to adopt a code for hairdressers, they talk to the hair dressers, not their clients.
The purpose of this initiative is not to propose a model. It is to send a message.
We are ordinary citizens. We condemn prostitution of minor and coercion of all types. We are ready to help combatting criminality the best we can. Gives us means to do it. Criminalizing us is an incentive that goes the wrong way.
This is not OUR business. We are the clients, not the providers. Let the sex workers negotiate their conditions. They are able to talk for themselves. It is their business. If the government wants to adopt a code for hairdressers, they talk to the hair dressers, not their clients.
The purpose of this initiative is not to propose a model. It is to send a message.
We are ordinary citizens. We condemn prostitution of minor and coercion of all types. We are ready to help combatting criminality the best we can. Gives us means to do it. Criminalizing us is an incentive that goes the wrong way.
Just pardon my ignorance, but let me arise some questions, please.
Personally, I'm just having a good fear of the government been involved in my personal activities of escorting.
I'm making my income taxes and declare, that's not the problem.
That's all the laws who will make me a illegal worker eventually.......(I am not explaining why.......) I have very, but very nothing to gain in my point of view and from my experience and my knowledge.
If I am well understanding,the ones who will be really "gaining" something will be eventually, the owner of agencies, the drivers of agencies, the husband or wife of an escort (extended to her/his children), and maybe some girls in the streets, and others who are having difficulties... I am still questioning myself what will be my personal advantages, in my situation. If someone is kind enough to explain to me, I will be very happy to know, because I don't see nothing presently, I am very ignorant on that matter.
If ever a day you declare yourself as an escort, you will be for ever, in the official papers, and escort. That will be a public information. Right?
I don't know if there is a lot of girls/women in the industry who want the "label" of sex worker for the rest of their lives written publicly for everyone.
Some do, some don't.
I don't know the proportion. Probably the same proportion of the "clients" who want to be publicly recognized as "client of prostitutes" to their family, friends and coworkers.
If someone want to tell me what I have to gain for myself, that will be very appreciated. I really don't see by myself presently.
Thank you. xx
Personally, I'm just having a good fear of the government been involved in my personal activities of escorting.
I'm making my income taxes and declare, that's not the problem.
That's all the laws who will make me a illegal worker eventually.......(I am not explaining why.......) I have very, but very nothing to gain in my point of view and from my experience and my knowledge.
If I am well understanding,the ones who will be really "gaining" something will be eventually, the owner of agencies, the drivers of agencies, the husband or wife of an escort (extended to her/his children), and maybe some girls in the streets, and others who are having difficulties... I am still questioning myself what will be my personal advantages, in my situation. If someone is kind enough to explain to me, I will be very happy to know, because I don't see nothing presently, I am very ignorant on that matter.
If ever a day you declare yourself as an escort, you will be for ever, in the official papers, and escort. That will be a public information. Right?
I don't know if there is a lot of girls/women in the industry who want the "label" of sex worker for the rest of their lives written publicly for everyone.
Some do, some don't.
I don't know the proportion. Probably the same proportion of the "clients" who want to be publicly recognized as "client of prostitutes" to their family, friends and coworkers.
If someone want to tell me what I have to gain for myself, that will be very appreciated. I really don't see by myself presently.
Thank you. xx
En quelques mot, Maria, ce qu'on appelle le "modèle nordique" ferait de tes clients des criminels. Il est raisonnable de penser que tu vas perdre une partie de ton chiffre d'affaire parce que le monde n'aime pas trop poser des geste criminels. Il y a des pressions présentement pour que le Canada s'embarque dans une telle folie.
Ce que demandent les organisations de tds canadiennes, unanimement, c'est simplement de décriminaliser le fait que tu puisses recevoir des clients, engager une réceptionniste ou un garde du corps et et faire de la sollicitation en public (t'sé là quand tu déambules sur la Sainte-Catherine
). Il n'est pas question de créer un registre de tds. Il y a très peu de pays dans le monde où la prostitution est légale qui imposent l'enregistrement sur des listes (le Nevada et la Grèce sont de rares exceptions), aucun à ma connaissance sur des listes publiques.
C'est aussi simple que ça.
Ce que demandent les organisations de tds canadiennes, unanimement, c'est simplement de décriminaliser le fait que tu puisses recevoir des clients, engager une réceptionniste ou un garde du corps et et faire de la sollicitation en public (t'sé là quand tu déambules sur la Sainte-Catherine
). Il n'est pas question de créer un registre de tds. Il y a très peu de pays dans le monde où la prostitution est légale qui imposent l'enregistrement sur des listes (le Nevada et la Grèce sont de rares exceptions), aucun à ma connaissance sur des listes publiques.C'est aussi simple que ça.
Même ça ce n'est pas sur. Les articles que j'ai vu semblent indiquer que la loi en Suede n'a pas vraiment fait peur aux clients.
En fait Maria, La pétition est pour la ''décriminalisation'', ce qui n'est pas la même chose que la ''légalisation''. L'idéal serait que le gouvernement ne ré-écrive pas la loi. Présentement la prostitution n'est pas illégale et la décision Bedford élimine les restrictions qui briment les travailleurs du sexe et leurs clients. Mais je pense qu'ils vont quand même faire une nouvelle loi.
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