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Thread: Video Taping

  1. #1

    Video Taping

    Trying to pull this subject together as it seems to be of interest to clients and SPS alike.I also recognize that this is a "Red Button" topic so let's avoid situations that divert the topic - specifically no reports/hearsay etc.,no value judgments,etc.

    The points raised are here for discussion - they may be dismissed or added to.

    From previous posts in other threads CONSENT seems to be the baseline
    criteria.What constitutes consent - by the SP,by the Agency if applicable,by the client?

    1.)Is simple consent sufficient or is "informed consent" free of concealment
    and other qualifiers the requirement?

    2.)What formal agreement has to be in place?

    3.)What identity and masking issues have to be considered?

    4.)Should the resulting taped session be planned or spontaneous?

    5.)Should either party have the right to terminate mid-session?What about financial consequences in such a situation?

    6.)Should the SP have the right to view the final taped product and should this right include veto power?What about financial consequences in such a situation?

    7.)Post taping use - who has the right to copies? What are the limits?

    Defining the marketplace.

    1.)Is this a service that may be generalized or would it be limited to specialized Agencies and SPS?

    2.)Legalities - porn shoots are legal since performers get paid within controlled circumstances - studio,etc.This would not be quite the same.

    Your comments within the context outlined would be appreciated.Hopefully the end result will be a better understanding.

  2. #2
    Eastender,

    1)I would think that a simple yes or no would suffice. If she says yes then place the camera in a prominent position so it could not be construed to anyone as hidden to her, in other words remove all doubt that she knows it is there, perhaps have her say something into the camera to acknowledge its presence. This would take care of the issue of whether or not she willingly consented and eliminate any notion that she was unaware.

    2)Formal agreement? If you feel the need for formality after she has done the above to prove it is not against her will, perhaps have her sign a written contract saying you have payed her(or not) for videotape for your own private use only or for a website if thats what you are doing it for.

    3)She can choose to tell you her name or not, and it is up to her discretion as to whether or not she wears some kind of mask or disguise.

    4)At this point it is definitely planned taping.

    5)She can terminate but has to return any money payed for thesole purpose of taping. If you terminate she returns nothing.

    6)same as above

    7)She/You agree in the original bargain session as to what the tape can and can't be used for or copy policy.

    Defining the Marketplace.

    1)Whoever wants to participate is in the market.

    2)Depends on the laws where you are doing the taping and distributing the product.
    Last edited by HonestAbe; 09-28-2005 at 04:56 AM. Reason: error

  3. #3
    uninformed informant
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    1/2) an agreement, legal and signed with no mention of escorting involved.

    3.)Not using names and any discretionary devices that may be agreed upon (small mask for example)

    4.) not sure exactly what you mean here, if she agrees it's pretty much planned, unless you're talking about something "scripted" in terms of positions used, fake premises and such. (best example would be all those bangbros shoots and the dirtylatinamaid shoots, they talk about it like it's spur of the moment but the whole thing is scripted and it shows.)

    5.)Yes, whoever cancels should be willing to give up the remaining money agree upon for the taping.

    6.) Yes they should have the right to see it should they request it prior to the agreement, same to veto. as for monetary consequences that should be negociated with a set of terms.

    Many SP's wish for that side of their life to remain private from their normal lives. A tape like this may put that privacy at risk so the terms in negotiation will probably reflect her comfort zone towards the final product. This is where a more "scripted" setup might come in handy, since a lot more women are trying out the amateur porn thing once or twice a well scripted scene would make it look like thats all she did.


    7.) "Actors" and "Actresses as well as "models" are usualy asked to sign a release form, they are offered a copy of the finished product.

    Defining the marketplace.

    1.) It's something that hasn't really been done this side of the continent, I know it happens in places like japan, china and thailand but here in canada/us all the "escort" videos that I've seen that weren't illegaly made were scripted with either fairly known actresses or newcommers/amateurs.

    2.)In this day and age, porn shoots are not as controled as you might think.

    Any guy can buy a decent cam, advertise and use his home/car or a hotel room and do porn shoots then make a website and build from there. The only thing that is tightly controled are the things that go on sale in stores.
    Inherited Will, the destiny of an age and the dreams of its people. These things will not be stopped.
    As long as people continue to pursue the meaning of freedom. They will never cease to be.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Gee
    4.) not sure exactly what you mean here, if she agrees it's pretty much planned, unless you're talking about something "scripted" in terms of positions used, fake premises and such. (best example would be all those bangbros shoots and the dirtylatinamaid shoots, they talk about it like it's spur of the moment but the whole thing is scripted and it shows.)
    Scripted/planned = wanted to cover the possibility that something happens during the session that was not agreed to prior.

  5. #5
    I am me, too!
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    Get your lawyer laid by the lady and film the entire thing. Get him to negociate "live". Then maybe it will be safe? (Na! No good! You'll be recording before the contract is signed...)

    Don't forget, in Quebec, all contracts must be in French unless BOTH parties agree to do business in English. The part stating that agreement MUST be written in French if one of the party is French, stating that both parties understand English and agree to proceed with an English contract. Even then, it's not rock solid because one party can argue sections of the contract were too hard to understand by somebody who's mother tongue is not English. It's then to the judge to decide what's acceptable and what's not.

  6. #6

    What if............

    Quote Originally Posted by metoo4
    Get your lawyer laid by the lady and film the entire thing. Get him to negociate "live". Then maybe it will be safe? (Na! No good! You'll be recording before the contract is signed...)

    Don't forget, in Quebec, all contracts must be in French unless BOTH parties agree to do business in English. The part stating that agreement MUST be written in French if one of the party is French, stating that both parties understand English and agree to proceed with an English contract. Even then, it's not rock solid because one party can argue sections of the contract were too hard to understand by somebody who's mother tongue is not English. It's then to the judge to decide what's acceptable and what's not.
    What if your lawyer is a woman or a transexual ......... famous case of one in Quebec trying to appear before the courts using her new female name.

    Thank you for adding some levity with you serious point.

  7. #7
    I would doubt that an escort would sign any contract as it might be used as an admission of prostition or living off the avails of prostition. This would put her in a worse position than an anonymous sex tape showing up on the net, which could be passed off as a tape made by a boyfriend or a one night stand without her knowledge. If you really want a sex tape of yourself make one with your GF or wife or just tell the agency or escort what you want up front. Or get an escort from an agency that handles porn stars such as Classxxx. Patricia Petite or Judy Star would be more likely to accept being filmed than a girl whose family doesn't know what she does for a living.

  8. #8
    I do all my own stunts
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    Proponent of consent

    Having been a strong defender of the consent issue on another thread I will now suggest that the consent required is directly related to the use of the tape.

    I will suggest that if the use of the tape is for personal reasons, and therefore distribution is to be limited (you), that that may fall into the type of situation where a verbal agreement of some sort migth be applicable (free will is important, so the agreement has to be given in full capacity and under no preassure).

    I will suggest that eventually this is an activity, if consent is given, and the distribution and use is only personal that resembles alot to the taping of sexual encounters you may have with a girlfriend or friend (againt with consent).


    Now if you are taping for the purpose of distribution (any type of distribution) then legal matters have to be considered and a contract or legal biding agreement of some sort will be required to insure that her as well as your rigths are protected. I suggest that the porno industry has agreements of this sort down to a T and that those agreements should be sufficient to cover you if you have decided to get into amateur porn. I suggest that once you tape a sexual encounter and you start distributing whether for personal pleasure or financial gain, you have become an amateur pornographer (nothing wrong wth that if that is what you want).


    As for the property of the tape:

    In the first scenario, I will think that once the consent is given the property of the recording is yours and that there can only be moral issues concerning the possible request to have that tape erased by the SP for some reason or another at some point in time in the future, but then again the obligation on your part will be the same you will have to your ex girlfriend or friend after you break up with her and she asks you to destroy the tapes, basically moral.

    On the second scenario, the legal and moral property of the tape is clear, the consent was given to tape with the intent of distributing so the property is yours to do as you wish.
    Last edited by Canadian Joe 652; 09-28-2005 at 06:32 PM.
    The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.

    Therefore: All progress depends on the unreasonable man!

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  9. #9

    Inherent Consent

    If an SP were to offer a video taping option on her website is there a level of inherent consent simply in the offer?If I decide to go out to the depanneur down the street from where I live there is a level of inherent consent that i agreed to go outside and assume certain risks associated with the weather but I did not express consent to submit myself to other peoples negligence,criminal intent,etc.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by oliver kloseoff
    eastender
    i think we as hobbiests break the law every time we engage in our hobbie
    i think many people break many laws every day.its only if you get caught its a crime..
    i also think many people take pictures and videotape without concent all the time
    just look on the net the spy cameras--i know a few people who bought these and showed me-trust me no way you would know your being filmed
    oliver
    I agree with you... only thing not its xxx website hosted in us need to complay with 18 USC 2257 so I'm not sure a website with this statement is a real spycam site...

    But if somebody want record a SP (and keep it for himself) he DONT need to fill out agreement and any other bullshit... he just need to explain it clear to the SP and thats it... I never made a contract with my ex-gfs to record them

    Wilko

  11. #11
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    I think Paris Hilton consented to the taping, but she did not consent to have it viewed by third parties and sold commercially in XXX video stores.

    This is why laws generally require the scope of the consent to be recorded in a writing.

  12. #12

    Inherent consent(2)

    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce34
    I still have a hard time understanding your meaning of inherent consent.
    If some one agrees to play touch football there is an inherent consent to abide by the rules of the game and accept incidental injuries that are part of the game.But the party agreeing to play touch football does not waive recourse for injuries sustained due to negligence,malice,etc.

    Similarly if an SP advertises a video taping experience what is the inherent consent,if any.

  13. #13

    Exclamation Discount Lawyer? $120 is bargain basement.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce34
    My advice, just pay 120$ for lawyer's fee for an hour
    Does Canada have price controls on lawyer fees?! The last Lawyer (A highly respected one where I live)I hired charges $300 an hour and the retainer was $2000, thats USD BTW. Some Lawyers charge $400 or $500 an hour!! HDH prices indeed!! I suppose you could get a bad lawyer for $120 but what good is a bad lawyer? Most Lawyers will give a free consultation where you can discuss your problem and get their professional opinion on what the law says and doesn't say about your situation, and what they think your chances are of winning or losing a case.

    You sound like you may have some legal experience. When you have been speaking about the law in regards to this matter are you speaking about Canadian Law? Laws vary widely from state to state in the US, how about Canada? Is the law in Montreal different than in Toronto or Vancouver? In regards to a situation like this is there a national standard or does interpretation vary widely depending on the judge and province. If so how many cases would be overturned on appeal because a "feminist judge", as you say there are many of in Quebec, decided she didn't like what you did, but ignored facts, when rendering her judgement.

    Its extremely hard to believe that if an Sp advertises "videotaping" on her website for the purpose of you taping your session, for a price, that doing so would somehow make you guilty of a crime as long as prostitution/making porn is not illegal where you live. Especially if you take the precautionary measures mentioned throughout this thread such as, videotaping the agreement with the camera in plain view, and having her sign a contract stating what the tape can and can not be used for, making sure she is an adult, dealing with her directly and not through a pimp, etc. Granted there are details to attend to, but it can be done. Otherwise the Porn industry wouldn't exist right? Why/how could a judge throw you in jail over this if you were as cautious as we are talking about being?

    How could an Sp possibly sue someone for hiring her to do something she advertises as a service, accepts payment for, signs a contract agreeing to your terms on camera, and performs the act on camera?
    Arguing she was under the influence? Of what, the desire to make money?Come on. What is she going to say, you drugged her before she made her website offering the service? Or maybe you gave her a spiked drink the moment she walked in the door which caused her to comletely lose her mind within the five minutes it took for her to review/sign the "one page contract" although the drug shows absolutely no outward effects for the camera?? The videotape will go along way towards whether or not she was "under the influence" of something and even then it would have been something she took on her own, not something you gave her, how can you be held responsible for something another adult chooses to do of their own free will of which you have no knowledge? Even more importantly, what judge would see fit to make her rich because of her drug/alchohol habit? I would think any sane judge would snicker under his breath and ask for some more time to "examine the evidence" in his chambers.

    What else, "she didn't understand" what she was doing? So she doesn't understand that she is making money selling herself having sex on camera? Then how would she understand that she could make a lot of money doing it in the first place? A prudent judge wouldn't laugh out loud at this considering she offers the service specifically, accepts payment for it, signs a contract agreeing to it, and then gives a performance worthy of an AVN award? Finally the best one of all, her "reputation" is damaged!! Lets not sugar coat it shall we? We call them Sp's, the court would call her a prostitute/porn actress. Not just any prostitute though. This one has a website with pictures of herself, naked, offering videotaped sexual encounters for a tidy sum. She can't find a good church going husband now? AWWWWW. I'm sure the courts heart will be bleeding by this point, LOL. Not to be adversarial with you, its just hard to believe that if you took all the precautions mentioned in this thread that you could end up in jail or sued successfully.

  14. #14
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    In the area where I practice, Attorneys charge anywhere from $125-$300/hour depending on the service. Insurance defense guys get paid the lowest, $100-$125, mainly because the competition for this work is ferocious, which forces down the fee level. But it's a lot of guaranteed billable hours if you get it.

    On plaintiff's personal injury cases, if you are not a bumbling idiot, your 33% contingency fee should translate to $200/hour or more if you: (a) have a good liability case that does not require too much fighting, and (b) handle your case efficiently with the minimal steps needed to zealously advance the interests of your client, including putting the case into suit immediately when a reasonable settlement is denied, etc. You keep track of your time and at the end of the case you divide the hours by the fee you made. If greater than $200, you handled the file efficiently. If less than $200, unless there were some liability issues, you handled the file inefficiently. Worker's Compensation is less lucrative, 20% contingency fee which should translate to $100 or more an hour. WC is less lucrative because claimants do not get compensated for their pain and suffering, only their economic losses.

    Real estate closings are only lucrative at $500-$750 per if you have a paralegal who comes in and does nothing but, so you can pick up the file one hour beforehand and everything is done, and done right, so that you just walk in and exchange documents and close. In that case, you make $500-$750/hour less her pro rated overheard. Of course, it's rare that you pick up a file and everything goes smoothly even with a seasoned real estate paralegal on board.

    On criminal cases, you usually get a retainer based on an hourly fee that takes into consideration the number of Courthouse trips and resultantly the amount of time you will spend to bring the matter to a conclusion.

    I generally bill $200/hr on my billable stuff.
    Last edited by EagerBeaver; 09-30-2005 at 07:58 AM.

  15. #15
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    Why make your life so complicated? Just ask before you make your rendez-vous if she agrees to being videotaped? Many SPs, for an extra fee will agree to being taped, if asked.

    Ronnie,
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    They will forget what you said,
    they will forget what you did,
    but they will never forget the way you made them feel.

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