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Il n'y a pas de bonne prostitution

Lunaseraphim

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Just like most "ideology" or "movement", feminism has different "schools of thoughts" and she belongs to one of them. I don't agree with her obviously, but she studied the phenomenon in depth.
My problem with sex worker exclusionary feminists is that they rarely actually listen to sex workers unless they are willing to contribute to their abolitionist discourse. She hasn't studied the phenomenon in depth if she has a very specific agenda and only chooses stories and narratives that prove her point.

I honestly feel the same way about "sex positive" famous sex workers who glamorize the industry when they talk about it in public. It's just a perspective without nuance on an extremely complex subject.

Sex trafficking is not sex work. And yes, there is a lot of exploitation in this industry, but that's why we are fighting for our rights and pushing for decriminalization. Thankfully someone people listen when we talk. And many of our clients have our backs and respect us. :)
 

Jordd

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There's a reason people dont use their real names and lurk. SPs hide their faces etc.

Would you want your kids or wife or sister to be an escort?

Sure you got money and think cheating in your sig other is normal. Sure you make money to pretend you're successful but deep down...you know the article is right.
I wouldn’t know…it’s over 1h30!! Who has time for that!!
 

Jordd

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My problem with sex worker exclusionary feminists is that they rarely actually listen to sex workers unless they are willing to contribute to their abolitionist discourse. She hasn't studied the phenomenon in depth if she has a very specific agenda and only chooses stories and narratives that prove her point.

I honestly feel the same way about "sex positive" famous sex workers who glamorize the industry when they talk about it in public. It's just a perspective without nuance on an extremely complex subject.

Sex trafficking is not sex work. And yes, there is a lot of exploitation in this industry, but that's why we are fighting for our rights and pushing for decriminalization. Thankfully someone people listen when we talk. And many of our clients have our backs and respect us. :)
Good point. Can I play Devil’s advocate?

What about the former sex worker on Twitter who said it was great while she was doing it until she came to the realization that it wasn’t so great anymore. Forget her name. But she keeps bashing sex work after enjoying it for years.
 

Jacobisrael

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Good point. Can I play Devil’s advocate?

What about the former sex worker on Twitter who said it was great while she was doing it until she came to the realization that it wasn’t so great anymore. Forget her name. But she keeps bashing sex work after enjoying it for years.
Some have religious families whether Jewish Christian Muslim. And start to regret it when they stop.But talking shit about others ain’t the way you have to own your past and stop blaming others for your choices if you think that they are bad and move on.
 

Lunaseraphim

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Good point. Can I play Devil’s advocate?

What about the former sex worker on Twitter who said it was great while she was doing it until she came to the realization that it wasn’t so great anymore. Forget her name. But she keeps bashing sex work after enjoying it for years.
She's allowed to change her mind about it as long as she's not advocating for abolitionism and shaming sex workers. As sex workers it's like we have to either be completely traumatized by it or adore every minute of it in order to be taken seriously.

Most of us have much more nuanced experiences, like I said. If we talk about negative things that happen to us there's someone jumping out of nowhere saying "ah hah!!! I knew this was horrible for you!!!" Or angrily "you should find another job better suited for you if you hate it so much!!"

If we admit to enjoying or having enjoyed some aspects of the job people can have something bad to say about it too. Women are shamed for owning their sexuality and wanting more than the bare minimum financially.. among other things.
 
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Sean007

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This thread is very interesting. In all fairness most people dont know anything about prostitution as is vastly outlined here. I can honestly say that i was thinking the same thing before i started seeing escorts. Little that i know what i would discover; beautiful, accomplished ladies that wish to spend quality time with gentlemen. I think that the non initiated to the SW universe are adopting an attitude of disgust towards an industry they know nothing about. Once you enter into this world you discover that either in the SW or elsewhere, treating peolple with respect and acknowledging and minding their limitations is the basis for every human relationship.
 
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Lunaseraphim

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Once you entrr into this world you discover that either in the SW or elsewhere, treating peolple with respect and monding their limitations is the basis for every human relationship.
This! Being a sex worker taught me how to set boundaries with people and allowed me to develop more compassion for a lot of people
 

Jacobisrael

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That's very true. On top of this most guys watch porn for free. They are used to never compensating the actresses they drool over.
100% of them would gladly accept having sex with the pornstar (some of them are escorts as well or did it in the past) if their friends or brothers would pay for it.
 
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Lunaseraphim

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100% of them would gladly accept having sex with the pornstar (some of them are escorts as well or did it in the past) if their friends or brothers would pay for it.
I think the fact that people access this type of content for free and never once thinks about the work that goes behind it contributes to the erasure of sex workers labour.

It's only a tiny part of the problem but I believe it's one of the reasons why some people aren't willing to pay attention to the complexities of sex workers reality.

If collectively we are used to being entertained for free by certain sex workers, and if we believe paying negates consent and normalize the idea that clients can do whatever they want once they paid and that everything that isn't a sexual act in sex work is not real labour, obviously there is going to be a huge issue.

What people like this don't realize is that they are in a way enabling violence by creating shame and stigma...
 

Halloween Mike

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This thread is very interesting. In all fairness most people dont know anything about prostitution as is vastly outlined here. I can honestly say that i was thinking the same thing before i started seeing escorts.
When i was younger all i knew was what i saw in movies and lets just say most of them didn't paint it a good rep. Yes there is the "Pretty Woman" and such, but most movies are more in the way of "The Equalizer" or such. Its really easy for someone who never been in the actual business to believe all the negative he is fed from medias both fiction and real life (news paper, tv news etc).
I think the fact that people access this type of content for free and never once thinks about the work that goes behind it contributes to the erasure of sex workers labour.

It's only a tiny part of the problem but I believe it's one of the reasons why some people aren't willing to pay attention to the complexities of sex workers reality.

If collectively we are used to being entertained for free by certain sex workers, and if we believe paying negates consent and normalize the idea that clients can do whatever they want once they paid and that everything that isn't a sexual act in sex work is not real labour, obviously there is going to be a huge issue.

What people like this don't realize is that they are in a way enabling violence by creating shame and stigma...
I think the whole "not paying for porn" comes from 2 things. The first is the obvious that porn been on the internet for as long as it existed and always was easily accessible. Companies themselves would upload clips of movies (wich at the time were only available on VHS and DVDs) and a lot of my generation seem to have grown up with this. I still remember waiting 15 minute for a couple megabites clip of 45 sec :p It was done to create buzz and publicity, but it kinda conditoned an entire generation that if they wanted to see porn for a quick fap, they could easily. As internet developed itself more and more, torrenting appeared, then tube site made it even easier, and still to this day many companies upload clips of 5m of their paid content. Sure you don't have the full scene, but for some peoples its enough for their "needs".

The other is that lots of other type of content being available for free renforce that idea. For instance Youtube, it runs on ads but can be view totally free. So im sure peoples expect something similar out of porn but the difference is regular product ain't advertising on porn, its just "other porn" (like brazzers publicity, or cam sites). Its nowhere near as lucrative but the false sense of "there is ads, so its fine" is still felt.

But if i learn anything is that for all peoples not paying, there is often enough equivalent that will. For exemple many creators i follow on YT have a patreon and mention their backers in the vids, so these peoples pay willingly even if they wouldn't need to cause they like the content. Same for porn, how many guys throw tons of money at OF creators as tips or whatnot for litterally nothing (if only attention), and this create both a balancing (vs the non-payers) but also an unbalance because you end up with pricing that are way above what they should be for the content. The creator expect to make good money on the "whales" but then you have others who will pirate because its just way too expensive. Sure some would had pirate anyway no matter what don't get me wrong, but a good chunk may had bough it if it was 60% less expensive.

Anyway, i don't think the online stuff contribute to the "demonization" of this business like you imply in the last line of your post, but thats just my opinion. I think personally it only go as simple as the old days when sexuality was seen as that "secret thing", that you had to be married and so on. Then times changed and yes peoples fuck for fun all the time as ONS or such, but there is 2 other factors.

On the male side there is the ego. I never be secretive on the fact i see escorts, and i been told a few times by other guys that there is "no way they would pay for pussy". It would hurt their ego, AND they still believe the false stigma that escorts carry diseases (probably because they got one themselves from a ONS of a girl that sleep around). But what they don't know/understand is that they often pay themselves just differently (dates ain't cheap...lol) and that escorts values their work and get tested often and on the contrary are super clean.

And on female side, some consider giving their body for money "shameful" yet go around and sleep with tons of guys. Sure they choose the guy, but its still sex. Like whats so shameful of making money out of it?

Anyway i could go on and on and i know im maybe not completely precise in my text especially in english, but i hope my general idea is understood.
 

Lunaseraphim

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When i was younger all i knew was what i saw in movies and lets just say most of them didn't paint it a good rep. Yes there is the "Pretty Woman" and such, but most movies are more in the way of "The Equalizer" or such. Its really easy for someone who never been in the actual business to believe all the negative he is fed from medias both fiction and real life (news paper, tv news etc).

I think the whole "not paying for porn" comes from 2 things. The first is the obvious that porn been on the internet for as long as it existed and always was easily accessible. Companies themselves would upload clips of movies (wich at the time were only available on VHS and DVDs) and a lot of my generation seem to have grown up with this. I still remember waiting 15 minute for a couple megabites clip of 45 sec :p It was done to create buzz and publicity, but it kinda conditoned an entire generation that if they wanted to see porn for a quick fap, they could easily. As internet developed itself more and more, torrenting appeared, then tube site made it even easier, and still to this day many companies upload clips of 5m of their paid content. Sure you don't have the full scene, but for some peoples its enough for their "needs".

The other is that lots of other type of content being available for free renforce that idea. For instance Youtube, it runs on ads but can be view totally free. So im sure peoples expect something similar out of porn but the difference is regular product ain't advertising on porn, its just "other porn" (like brazzers publicity, or cam sites). Its nowhere near as lucrative but the false sense of "there is ads, so its fine" is still felt.

But if i learn anything is that for all peoples not paying, there is often enough equivalent that will. For exemple many creators i follow on YT have a patreon and mention their backers in the vids, so these peoples pay willingly even if they wouldn't need to cause they like the content. Same for porn, how many guys throw tons of money at OF creators as tips or whatnot for litterally nothing (if only attention), and this create both a balancing (vs the non-payers) but also an unbalance because you end up with pricing that are way above what they should be for the content. The creator expect to make good money on the "whales" but then you have others who will pirate because its just way too expensive. Sure some would had pirate anyway no matter what don't get me wrong, but a good chunk may had bough it if it was 60% less expensive.

Anyway, i don't think the online stuff contribute to the "demonization" of this business like you imply in the last line of your post, but thats just my opinion. I think personally it only go as simple as the old days when sexuality was seen as that "secret thing", that you had to be married and so on. Then times changed and yes peoples fuck for fun all the time as ONS or such, but there is 2 other factors.

On the male side there is the ego. I never be secretive on the fact i see escorts, and i been told a few times by other guys that there is "no way they would pay for pussy". It would hurt their ego, AND they still believe the false stigma that escorts carry diseases (probably because they got one themselves from a ONS of a girl that sleep around). But what they don't know/understand is that they often pay themselves just differently (dates ain't cheap...lol) and that escorts values their work and get tested often and on the contrary are super clean.

And on female side, some consider giving their body for money "shameful" yet go around and sleep with tons of guys. Sure they choose the guy, but its still sex. Like whats so shameful of making money out of it?

Anyway i could go on and on and i know im maybe not completely precise in my text especially in english, but i hope my general idea is understood.
I already know why people don't pay for porn, I grew up with the internet too. :) The reason why I'm mentioning this is that BECAUSE most people don't pay for porn, it enables a lack of appreciation for sex workers labour. I also am not lecturing people who don't pay for porn, I'm not a big porn enthusiast but I didn't pay for it when I watched it in the past... And I know some people pay for it. I've had an OF and I know people pay for it.. Why are you trying to explain this to me?

I also disagree that the mainstream porn industry doesn't contribute to the demonization of sex work.. I think people who put all types of sex work in the same basket assume what escorts are doing is what you see in very hardcore porn. Not that it's wrong to enjoy this type of sex.. there's also nothing bad about offering this type of experience as an escort. but not all of us like it, and those of us who don't, do not wish to be pressured into it.

I however agree with you that there's an interesting double standard when it comes to paying escorts or being an escort VS being someone who has a certain sex & dating life. A lot of people go on dates all the time and have multiple sexual partners, but at this point in history no one would ever say they are being exploited or ''ruined'' by it. Also, even if these guys claim they don't pay for sex, that doesn't mean they never did in the past and never will.

The industry has its issues but there's nothing wrong with paying for an escort's services, or offering these services. I just think we all need to focus on respect and consent. Accepting to have productive exchanges and sometimes difficult conversations is a huge step forward
 

2fast2slow

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Jan 12, 2005
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i don't like Maria Mourani (duh! im a member of an escort review board). I have been hearing her rant for years. Very narrow and dystopian view of this world. I could give her credit for at least being out there publicly and fighting for a cause, but it is the wrong cause. She is a smart woman but I wonder what are the roots of her motivation and crusade? Is it the attention? Is it puritanical? Did she happen to meet genuinely <pimped> girls in her early carreer and that traumatized her? I guess we will never know.
 

Jacobisrael

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But for this mourani lady I think her obsession is for one of those 2 reasons: either she wants to make money with her counselling or her husband cheated on her with a SP or a man in her family did.But going after SW won’t solve the issue. She should focus on going to church with them lol.
i don't like Maria Mourani (duh! im a member of an escort review board). I have been hearing her rant for years. Very narrow and dystopian view of this world. I could give her credit for at least being out there publicly and fighting for a cause, but it is the wrong cause. She is a smart woman but I wonder what are the roots of her motivation and crusade? Is it the attention? Is it puritanical? Did she happen to meet genuinely <pimped> girls in her early carreer and that traumatized her? I guess we will never know.
 
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Lunaseraphim

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She's a crime expert and this is one of her specialities, even if I disagree with her and don't like what she's saying/don't like her. She wasn't "cheated on by her husband" lol it's not because as a woman she disagrees with the industry that she didn't get enough sex or her husband sees sex workers...

However I think she's mostly working with trafficking victims, underaged ones in particular. If you just work with victims of sex trafficking obviously you'll have a negative view of this industry, particularly if you stop there or look a little bit further and witness employers who pressure their workers into certain practices and take huge cuts of their earning. There are actually victims of sex trafficking, it's a thing that exists, you have to face it.

I've known people who's first "pimp" was their client who pressured them into exchanging sexual favors for money of goods when they were in a bad situation as a teenager. They were groomed basically and were paid. Or it was someone who was their "boyfriend" at first and slowly started pushing them to work and using coercive violence. I don't know that many people who have had that experience tho, so I can't say.

However, I think it's foolish to think that by saying all forms of paid sex is non consensual you're going to improve the situation lol. I disagree with this statement one hundred percent. By having more nuanced ideas and allowing sex workers from different backgrounds who have different stories to speak their truth, things will improve so much more.

Abolitionists are not "jealous" or "mal baisées", they are biased because they have a negative view of sex work, maybe due to personal trauma or preconceived notions, and they are unwilling to challenge their own point of view. It's unfortunate because they act like they care about women's well being, but they don't respect our choice and situation.
 
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Jacobisrael

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She's a crime expert and this is one of her specialities, even if I disagree with her and don't like what she's saying/don't like her. She wasn't "cheated on by her husband" lol it's not because as a woman she disagrees with the industry that she didn't get enough sex or her husband sees sex workers...

However I think she's mostly working with trafficking victims, underaged ones in particular. If you just work with victims of sex trafficking obviously you'll have a negative view of this industry, particularly if you stop there or look a little bit further and witness employers who pressure their workers into certain practices and take huge cuts of their earning. There are actually victims of sex trafficking, it's a thing that exists, you have to face it.

I've known people who's first "pimp" was their client who pressured them into exchanging sexual favors for money of goods when they were in a bad situation as a teenager. They were groomed basically and were paid.

However, I think it's foolish to think that by saying all forms of paid sex is non consensual you're going to improve the situation lol. I disagree with this statement one hundred percent. By having more nuanced ideas and allowing sex workers from different backgrounds who have different stories to speak their truth, things will improve so much more.

Abolitionists are not "jealous" or "mal baisées", they are biased because they have a negative view of sex work, maybe due to personal trauma or preconceived notions, and they are unwilling to challenge their own point of view. It's unfortunate because they act like they care about women's well being, but they don't respect our choice and situation.
I don’t know her I said maybe so could be the case or could be that indeed nope. For the rest yes I agree but saying to people the average age is 14 is a stretch. Anyways good discussion can’t wait to see her again next year!
 
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Lunaseraphim

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I don’t know her I said maybe so could be the case or could be that indeed nope. For the rest yes I agree but saying to people the average age is 14 is a stretch. Anyways good discussion can’t wait to see her again next year!
I haven't watched the video lol I won't lie. I have no idea where that number came from... Maybe she means the average age of trafficked children in general but that's far from the age of most people you see on escort listing sites lmao and at the F1.....

Anyways yes this subject is exhausting lol I guess we'll hear about it next year again.
 
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Jacobisrael

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I haven't watched the video lol I won't lie. I have no idea where that number came from... Maybe she means the average age of trafficked children in general but that's far from the age of most people you see on escort listing sites lmao and at the F1.....
Ye most likely trafficked but for her most SPs are. I would think real average age would be 27-28 more or less. Anyways good night
 
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