Rejection of the proposed amendments to the Charter of the French language (Bill 14)

[shijak]

So, this is a revenge bill?

Évidemment.... soyons sérieux, si le PQ voulais sauvegarder la survie du francais au Québec, il financerait a l'exces le systeme éducatif au niveau primaire et secondaire plutôt que les misérables miettes qu'il recois en ce moment. Et les enseignants seraient beaucoup mieux formés, et ce depuis les années 60.
Mais ce n'est pas le cas, ils préferent attiser les passions basses du public pour se garder élus. Et pendant ce temps, le francais parlé et écrit de la population s'empire, le niveau de décrochage est d'une proportion alarmante depuis plus de vingt ans. Et qui est en charge du PQ en ce moment? Nulle autre que la Pauline, l'une des pires ministres de l'éducation et ministre des finances que nous avons jamais eu, une ancienne secrétaire de Jacques Parizeau qui a réussi a monter en grade malgré un manque total de compétences dans les portfolios lui étant assignés...

Qu'elle pourchasse a mettre en loi la proposition 14 plutot que s'attaquer au vrai probleme social ne me surprends aucunement d'elle. Sa carriere est une ode a l'incompétence...

 

[rumpleforeskiin]

So, this is a revenge bill?

Not entirely, and not necessarily by design. However, historically, both here and elsewhere, where there has been a pattern of systemic oppression, when that system is discarded, residual resentment always carries over as it has here. Right or wrong, it's human nature and it simply goes with the territory.

 

[anon_vlad]

Quebec is more than 3/4 french speaking so... french is THE predominent language used. If Canadians and Feds wants to cry babies then let them...
Canada is supposed to be billingual. The day both French and English will be used equally d'un Ocean a l'autre... I will support putting everything in both language equally in Quebec.
Til then, let the hypocrites have a nice fit !To anyone who wants to complain about Quebec I say 'STFU'. :lol::lol::lol:

Nouveau-Brunswick est officiellement bilingue, contrairement au Québec. L'extérieur du Nouveau-Brunswick et au Québec, la proportion de francophones est extrêmement faible, même dans les grandes villes. Par exemple Toronto est à peine 1% francophone alors que Montréal est d'environ 16% anglophone et une autre 33% sonts des immigrants qui ont l'anglais comme langue seconde.

Maintenant que la grande majorité des anglos peut fonctionner en français et tout le monde peut travailler, magasiner et jouer en français, est-ce suffisant pour arrêter tracasseries mesquines et de détendre les lois linguistiques au lieu de les rendre plus sévère? Ma question à ceux qui ont toujours soutenir inconditionnellement faire les lois linguistiques plus sévères: Avez-vous un objectif en tête?

Y a t-il un point où vous trouverez les moyens de résoudre les vrais problèmes tels que le chômage, effondrement de l'infrastructure, la médiocrité des services médicaux et éducatifs, population vieillissement, etc endettement plutôt que des boucs émissaires d'une minorité décroissante impuissant?

New Brunswick is officially bilingual, unlike Quebec. Outside New Brunswick and Quebec, the percentage of francophones is extremely small, even in large cities. e.g. Toronto is barely 1% francophone whereas Montreal is about 16% anglophone and a large portion of the 33% immigrants have English as their second language.

Now that the vast majority of anglos can function in French and everyone can work, shop and play in French is that sufficient to stop petty harassments and relax the language laws instead of making them more severe? My question to those who always unconditionally support making the language laws more severe: Do you have a goal in mind?

Is there any point at which you will find ways to address the real problems such as unemployment, collapsing infrastructure, poor medical and educational services, aging population, debt load etc. instead of scapegoating a dwindling powerless minority?

 

[shijak]

j'étais bien trop occupé avec le boulot ces derniers temps pour te répondre, Mike ,mais ne penses pas que bien de tes ...commentaires!...dans ce fil de discussion ont passés inapercus...

Tech : Most people WILL spend they life working in quebec.... Is it important to have a base in other language if you travel? Yeah of course... dosen't mean we need to master the language though. And again... touristy places usually are very accomodating when it comes to serving clients in there language. I think teaching kids too young cause identity crisis. For exemple one of my friend, he is french speaking and all, yet when i hear his little bothers talking in the back (in the xbox mic) they always talk in english, yet he answer them in french and they understand. So now because they learn it young they are using it more than the french... They are in Gatineau so close to ontario but still... Would i be my friend i would say "parle moi en francais, on est au quebec icitte".

Et de quel genre de crise d'identité veux-tu parler exactement, Mike? Il a été prouvé par multiples essais scientifiques que le cerveau pubescent, spécifiquemment entre de 4 a 10 ans a la meilleure des capacités pour absorber toutes sortes d'informations que ce soit apprendre la musique, les mathématiques et, oui, apprendre d'autres langues que notre langue maternelle.

Moi-même des un jeune age, probablement a 3 ans je pus apprendre a converser en anglais, tout a la surprise de mes parents, parce que je passais quelques heures par semaines a écouter Bugs Bunny a la CBC dans les années 60. Ma mere a ce jour raconte sa surprise a m'entendre parler a l'age de 4 ans avec la belle-mêre de sa soeur qui était anglophone unilingue.
Je trouve encore dommage que l'espagnol ne me fut pas présenté avant l'age de 14 ans, et le cantonnais avant la trentaine, sinon je serais probablement bien plus habile aujourd'hui...

Moi par contre je veux savoir ton sens de crise d'identité: quoi, que celui qui apprends l'anglais a un age trop jeune ne se satisfait pas a se planter a écouter le hockey, a regarder occupation double et star academie, a rire devant les bougreries normalement diffusées a la télé?

James : LOL what does building and such have to do in this.. if there something i am NOT for fulling a city til its overcharge. There is enough people already in montreal, enough traffic, enough crazy stuff going on... I couldn't care less toronto get bigger, or welcome everybody... Quantity dosen't equal Quality, and thats why i will always prefer small towns to the big city for living.... For all i care, if the english speakers don't like the current quebec, the laws such, you are free to leave, and as you say in english, don't let the door hit you on the way out.

Faut adorer ce dernier commentaire. Tu serais totalement a l'aise au États-Unis dans les rangs des membres du TEA PARTY, ils sortent des phrases exactement comme celles-la...Bon, bien tu est pret a dire au ''english'' de plier baggages si ils ne sont pas content du présent statut quo...

Et bien pour t'en apprendre, Mike, moi-même et bien de gens de ma connaissance qui sont francophones de souche , NOUS, nous ne sommes pas content de la nouvelle ronde de lois répressives que nous tentons d'avoir au Québec.

Tu vas nous dire a nous de partir au plus criss' , alors? J'attends ta réponse avec grand intéret...

And on your last thought, too bad for you if you see the french protection politics as racism or whatever. But just to say i didn't vote for Marois, as she was pro red square and i despise the movement, i voted for Option National, even if i knew the chance to win was 0. But in any case on what she does NOW for this particular bill, i aprove yes. And i don't think its racist or whatever. Its just protecting our heritage.

La Marois, elle etait PRO- les petits carrés rouges?!? Pardonnes-moi pendant que je ris, Mike, tu n'es vraiment pas sérieux pour écrire une telle affaire, non? Ben voyons don', prends tu le temps de lire et t'informer avant de faire des déclarations pareilles? Va voir sur l'internet, quand Marois était la ministre de l'éducation il y a bien des années, elle était totalement pour une augmentation des frais de scolarités, pareil comme ceux qui avaient failli passer l'année derniere. Mais contrairement a Jean Charest, Marois n'avais aucun courage dans sa propre législation et a battu retraite des la menace de demonstrations par les étudiants. Et oh, quelle surprise, Marois propose a nouveau de faire monter les frais de scolarités en ce moment...

Voyons, Mike! La seule raison pour laquelle Marois s'était présentée CONTRE les frais l'année derniere, c'est qu'elle est une vile opportuniste sans aucune vision personnelle, et qu'elle léchait le cul du public pour s'attirer des votes...

Ah oui, j'oubliais presque: Proteger notre héritage? voyons don', c'est pas du tout le cas, c'est encore pour acheter des votes de la base anti-anglaise du Québec, rien d'autre! Je répetes, préserver le francais au Québec= renforcir le systeme éducatif! Retirer des droits= ecoeurer tes adversaires politicaux et acheter le support de ta base électorale vacillante....

Que dois-t'on s'attendre d'une femme avec compétences douteuses qui ne peux même pas parler une deuxieme langue sauf tres boiteusement!

Rewinded : To speak french you don't have to write it perfectly. And i never said i was for the big complicated french some people who like to "peter plus haut que le trou" do sometimes. I speak quebec french, thats includes tabarnak, criss, osti and all the other traditional words. Even anglicisms are ok for me, as the english also use french words anyway(rendez-vous for exemple) , as long as its french in substance, its fine with me. English is so easy overall and so simple, people that were born and raised in it HAVE to pass it without problem... French sometimes is overly complicated for nothing especially on the writing, and i am also in favor to simple it and all. So yes i want to protect french, but the french we speak, us the normal people, not the overly complicated for nothing french they want to teach in school that NOBODY exept maybe so President of a compagny use, not even people from france.If there something, there french is even more "butchered" as some would say, than ours. I was watching a french movie yesterday and in part i had to rewind to understand...

Aie yayaye...Je pourrais tellement dire de choses ici, mais je me retiens a dire seulement que tu as une vision trop étroite de la vie et du francais...

 

[Merlot]

The problem I have with you, Merlot, is that you never pick a side. You always sit on the fence, trying to find good on both sides.

Bravo for me,

Above in bold is one of the highest compliments I've ever gotten. I'll take great pride in that because the habit of seeking understanding is true achievement.

I'm not going into the subject with you since you can't help copping out with dodges and distortions, but about taking sides. It's a good thing to pick a side if one looked at and thought through the issues to be suitably informed and the choice is about principles. Obviously standing on principles is highly commendable. However many times people take sides on impulse like one would sell their heart and mind to a team. Some take sides out of ignorance, narrow self-interest, to be one of the boys, or they have no interest in thinking, understanding, fairness. Taking sides is too often a refuge for being closed-minded.

Frankly, you're well-informed and your principles are honest, but you're too closed at the same time when you label anyone who disagrees at all as Separatists, Xenophobes, brainwashed, and various cheap insults, and gross mischaracterizations. It's understandable if one has very strong principles and has had bad experiences that make him so one-sided. But many of your posts on these cultural issues demonstrate almost an impulsive revulsion for all things French, close to the border of a phobia. Such a reflex bias dilutes your credibility as much as you allege my not living in Montreal does. Taking sides in that situation...ehhhh.

As I clearly stated in my initial post two pages ago, I support some of the language laws, some of them I don't and I find some of them self-defeating.

I support laws that protect both cultures and work to make the two cultures as equal as possible. Unfortunately people like Marois have far exceeded that line into absurdity, doing a great deal of damage. Then there are her mirror English opposites doing as much damage by insisting any language law effort is persecution and and use Separatist boogeymen to bait hatred.

It's so much like the U.S. race issues. The battle between two extremes to fight for equality, then government over-compensation with race-quota hiring laws, harassment laws, anti-baiting laws, etc., and the resenters on both sides always baiting the public with fear-mongering extremes while some of the formerly oppressed minority exploit their former oppressors. I never thought this kind of mindset could exist in Canada, never between two white cultures with a close heritage despite historic rivalries. It proves any social or cultural distinction can be separated into divided opponents and driven to act like senseless haters. That too is what comes of...taking sides.

Have fun,

Merlot

 

[Techman]

Merlot, Merlot, Merlot...mon beau petit gars, can you show me even ONE post I've EVER made that is against the French language or Francophones? JUST ONE? Give it your best shot. Take all the time you need. I'll make a deal with you...if you can find one anti French post that I have made on this board at any time in the past, I will never post in one of these threads again. And if you can't, then you never post in one of these threads again. And remember, anti-separatist or anti language laws is not anti French and you may not take any quote out of context of the post it was made in and must provide a link to the post and thread. Deal?

You make the same mistake as the language zealots here in thinking that my views against discriminatory laws are automatically against all Francophones. And you make this false assumption with the knowledge that I myself am a Francophone, Pur Laine Quebecois. Not all Francophones are xenophobic or anti English. In fact I would say the the majority of them are not. Unfortunately it is not that majority that gets elected to power or even enters politics at all. And unfortunately many of them are easily convinced by their power hungry leaders that their language and culture is in danger when it would be quite obvious to anyone with any intelligence who would take the time to look at the facts that this is entirely false.

Why is it that whenever I post something regarding how the English are treated here, it becomes a 'gross mischaracterization" but you, along with others, continue to bring up events from at least half a century ago as justification for discriminatory laws in place today in the 21st Century? Can there be any more gross mischaracterization than that? You are willing to accept revenge as a justifiable reason for these laws? By your reasoning, it would be fair for Blacks in the US to own Whites as slaves.

Since when does wanting equality for everyone equate to picking sides against the French? I am in favour of equal rights for ALL citizens of Quebec regardless of language, creed or colour. I am in favour of parents having the choice to educate their children in the language of their choice where the facilitles are available. I am in favour of bilingualism. I do not judge someone by the language they speak, their sexual orientation or their beliefs or the colour of their skin. I judge them by their actions. I am anything but close minded.

If I judge you by your actions, I would say that you would be able to find the good in anyone, from separatists in Quebec, to KKK leaders to Nazis to Sarah Palin. You are the perfect sympathizer. You would make a good press agent for someone or a defense lawyer.

Get off the fence, Merlot. Your balls will thank you for taking the pressure off of them.

 

[b_cup_lover]

........................, from separatists in Quebec, to KKK leaders to Nazis to Sarah Palin.
.

Comparing Separatists to KKK or Nazis?
Aren't you going a little too far?

 

[Edouard]

If I judge you by your actions, I would say that you would be able to find the good in anyone, from separatists in Quebec, to KKK leaders to Nazis...

Bon, Techman vient de remporter le Prix Godwin, qui dit : « Plus une discussion en ligne dure longtemps, plus la probabilité d'y trouver une comparaison impliquant les nazis ou Adolf Hitler s’approche de 1. » http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loi_de_Godwin

Généralement, on s'entend pour dire que celui qui gagne le prix Godwin perd aussi le débat, tant il est évident que cette rhétorique est pathétique et le fait de quelqu'un qui ne sait pas comment défendre son point de vue et argumenter intelligement.

 

[Merlot]

Comparing Separatists to KKK or Nazis?
Aren't you going a little too far?

Agreed,

This is a perfect illustration of what's wrong with this attitude and sense of proportion, indeed his whole perspective on the issue. When a person who normally has enough sense to know when links like this have reached into the irrational, yet makes such an nonchalant association of Separatists with organizations whose philosophies are pure evil, and doesn't see that as wrong, it self-evident that he's emotionally over-wrought on the issue. This kind of linkage exceeds anything even Marois has said.

As I've said before, when this kind of attitude exists, when there's an emotional and mental wall that says anyone who disagrees must be not only an extremist but also an extremist that can be easily linked to the worst possible associations then you become as much of the problem as those you detest.



Merlot

 

[Techman]

Comparing Separatists to KKK or Nazis?
Aren't you going a little too far?

Ya wanna point out to me where I'm making that comparison? Maybe people here should go back to school, English or French, and learn how to read. It seems that some people's comprehension skills are at about a second grade level, if that.

To spell it out for you, I was not comparing anyone to anything. I was saying that MERLOT would be able to find something good to defend in anyone, not matter who it might be or what they have done. He would be like that female CNN reporter this week who was all broken up about those two young men with such a bright football future who have had it ruined by being convicted of rape.

Learn how to read before bothering to reply to one of my posts. It will save us all a lot of trouble.

 

[Abe Sapien]

The Liberals have a leader now, and he looks like ( in my opinion ) a Charest deluxe. They will sit back and let the PQ back pedal and make fools of themselves. When they step in the place will be a shambles, but anything they do will be better than what the PQ have done.

 

[Halloween Mike]

Sa fait un bout je suis pas passé alors j'ai survolé, mais j'ai lus ce qui m'etait adressé.

Alyssa : Non je n'ai pas d'enfants, mais ce que je dit c'est que si tu aprend autant l'anglais que le francais a un gamin, au final quand il sera plus vieu, il aura aucune raison de protéger le francais... Pour lui se sera une langue comme une autre qu'il peut parler et finira par toujours s'exprimer en francais. J'ai "failer" mes classes d'anglais 2 fois au secondaire, et quand j'ai laché l'ecole je n'avais meme pas mon anglais de 4. Je l'ai appris a 15 ans par la voie des jeux online et d'une copines bilingue. Je suis retourné finir mon diplome plus tard et j'ai passé l'examen d'anglais le plus haut les doights dans le nez. 96% et la seul raison que j'ai pas eu 100, la "casettes" etait magané et j'ai pas compris la question, s'etait il y a environ 5-6 ans, rendu la je comprenais toujours pas que se sois pas sur CD... Enfin bref je pense sa prouve que l'on peut aprendre l'anglais a la fin de l'adolescence. Sinon mon secondaire 5 de francais je l'avais reussis a 17 ans avant de lacher, ces pas un probleme sa. Si j'ecris mal ces que je deteste me corrigé pour un forum, ou je m'exprime comme je parle. Mais je testais de jeux video officiellement ya quelque années, et mes textes etait impeccable.

Enfin bon, j suis pas un business man de 50 ans comme beaucoup ici, j'ai peut-etre pas la meme vision que vous de la chose, et mes points de vue politiques et social sont special, sa j'en suis conscient. Je suis probablement un des rares gars au quebec qui etait POUR la hausse, mais porte des chandail du CCCP. lol

En fait je n'ai jamais compris les pro-partie electoral, ceux qui vont serrer la main des chef etc, qui brandisse leur pancarte, car dans chaque partie ya toujours qqc que je suis contre et qqc que je suis pour. Et au final mon vote est toujours un balancement du "lequel a le plus de pour, et lequel de contre" Cette année j'ai pas reussi alors voila pkoi j'ai voté pour un ptit partie.

Et bien pour t'en apprendre, Mike, moi-même et bien de gens de ma connaissance qui sont francophones de souche , NOUS, nous ne sommes pas content de la nouvelle ronde de lois répressives que nous tentons d'avoir au Québec.

Tu vas nous dire a nous de partir au plus criss' , alors? J'attends ta réponse avec grand intéret...

Bas... sa depend de tes raisons... moi je peut pas comprendre comment un franco peut etre contre des lois pour proteger le francais.. mais bon ces moi. Comme je l'ai dit j'ai grandis en village, et pour moi pendant les 16 premieres année de ma vie, hormis dans les jeux videos qui etait en anglais seulement(malheureusement) il n'y avais QUE le francais au quebec, je savais meme pas que l'anglais etait si present, je pensais que s'etait qu'au canada anglais qu'il y en avais. J'etait pas sortie plus loin que sherbrooke beaucoup avant mes 16 ans.

Et Marois je sais qu'elle a jouer d'opportunisme, mais bon elle a quand meme saboté tout ce que Charest a essayé de faire, enfin tenir tete au ti-zenfant pas content, alors bon deja que je l'aimais pas d'avance, sa pas aidé. Je me suis promis de jamais voté PQ tant qu'a serais la chef...

En tout cas je vais de moin en moin repondre a cette conversion, surtout que le forum a plus d'anglais que de francais de toute facon, alors ces un peu comme essayé d'aller crier dans un mcdo que du burger king ces meilleur, sa sers pas a grand chose vu que le monde sont allé la pour manger du mcdo... lol

 

[Max15411]

S'il te plaît Alyssa, n'utilises pas Hollow Mike comme exemple d'un homme. J'ai arrêté pas mal au début de cette discussion d'avoir une discussion avec lui.

 

[rumpleforeskiin]

S'il te plaît Alyssa, n'utilises pas Hollow Mike comme exemple d'un homme. J'ai arrêté pas mal au début de cette discussion d'avoir une discussion avec lui.

I kind of want to thank Hollow Mike myself for his having switched to French in this thread. Now I'm spared his xenophobic rants.

 

[Max15411]

Minister launches offensive against military exemption

If anybody still needs to sign the petition, here is another reason to do so.

https://www.assnat.qc.ca/en/exprimez-votre-opinion/petition/Petition-3559/index.html

Posted By: Angelica Montgomery [email protected] • 3/20/2013 8:29:00 PM

Language minister Diane De Courcy compared central Quebec's English public schools to bridging schools and roundly rejected arguments to maintain an exemption that, the board says, is necessary for the survival of its schools.

School board officials looked shocked and shaken as they listened to the minister during the National Assembly's public hearings on bill 14. They are fighting to keep an exemption that allows military families to go to English schools.

"(The arguments) I've heard since the beginning on their surface, do not hold up," said language minister Diane De Courcy.

The board, which teachers children in Quebec city and the Saguenay, will lose 700, or 16 % of its enrolment.

But De Courcy argues that despite the already small size of the schools, none will have to close.

The Dollard-des-Ormeaux elementary school, she says, will drop from 427 to 173 students.

Another school, Everest, will go from nearly 400 students to 76. The Valcartier school will have just 18 students left.

De Courcy says this is all within the realm of acceptable. "I cannot say at this stage that there are threats of closure," she said.

The board's president, Stephen Burke, looked heart broken. "Losing 20 % of our school clientele. I don't see but what magic of mathematics. I'm a trained actuary. I don't see how I'll be able to continue like I am," he said.

Information Sheet

De Courcy also produced an information sheet that she said she had just gotten that same day, on the impact of the bill 14's removal of the exemption of military families.

It said the children do not transfer outside of Quebec. "The majority of them will finish their schooling in Quebec," it says, while giving no numbers.

The minister had previous said she did not know the statistics and school board says it has never seen any such figures.

The sheet also compares the exemption to bridging schools. "The French language is not under threat because 700 children go to English school," it says.

But, it argues that a person should not attain a right that others don't have, either because of their job or revenue.

Of course the PQ is not doing any of this out of spite or just to hurt people. Clearly it is necessary to punish these parents and students. I'm sure the thought has crossed their narrow minds that these students could very likely fail their school year when they cannot understand a word of French once they arrive from another province. Does it matter that these kids will be held back a year or more? Obviously not to the PQ.

This party needs to be disbanded.

 

[gugu]

Of course the PQ is not doing any of this out of spite or just to hurt people. Clearly it is necessary to punish these parents and students. I'm sure the thought has crossed their narrow minds that these students could very likely fail their school year when they cannot understand a word of French once they arrive from another province. Does it matter that these kids will be held back a year or more? Obviously not to the PQ.

Don't understand a word? Really? They are french speaking for god sake. I'm not a big fan of bill 14, but I think you're pushing things a bit too far like all the extremists on both sides.

 

[Max15411]

I'm not pushing anything. If a kid comes to Quebec from another province where French education is practically non-existant, and is stuck going to a French school, what are his/her chances of succeeding?

 

[gugu]

And what did you mean when you wrote they cannot understand a word in french?

 

[Like_It_Hot]

I'm not pushing anything. If a kid comes to Quebec from another province where French education is practically non-existant, and is stuck going to a French school, what are his/her chances of succeeding?

This kid is allowed to access english schools in Quebec.

 

[Max15411]

Thanks Like_It_Hot for pointing that out. I went to double check the bill. There is still a problem for these people though. Even though they may be few, it is not fair to put a kid in a situation where he/she will not be allowed to graduate because his/her parents are stationed in Quebec during the last years of their high school education.

“88.0.2. No secondary school diploma may be issued to a student who does not have the knowledge of spoken and written French required by the programs of the Minister of Education, Recreation and Sports.

“88.0.3. No diploma of college studies may be issued to a student domiciled in Québec who does not have the knowledge of spoken and written French required by the programs of the Minister of Higher Education, Research, Science and Technology.