Rejection of the proposed amendments to the Charter of the French language (Bill 14)

[Techman]

If by 'not too distant past' you mean 5 or 6 decades ago, well even then the so called fat lady at Eaton's who wouldn't serve French people is more of a fable than anything based in truth. We aren't in the 50s or the 60s anymore, this is the second decade of the 21st century. Women have the vote and blacks don't have to ride in the back of the bus. You would think that people would be intelligent enough by now to learn from the past instead of using it as an excuse to oppress others. It's well past time that everyone stood up for themselves and said enough is enough. Enough of catering to a small group of xenophobes who insist of living in the past, enough of discrimination. Enough of living in a place where bilingualism is seen as a bad thing instead of as the great advantage it truly is.

Anyone who wants to ensure the survival of their culture and language should find ways to promote it that do not step on the rights of anyone else. They should teach it to their children at home. They should take responsibility for it and not depend on laws that discriminate against others. But that takes strength of character and actual belief in your culture. Both of which are sorely lacking in a society that expects the government to do everything for them.

If a culture requires discriminatory laws to survive, if it cannot survive on it's own merits, then it does deserve to survive.

 

[Sol Tee Nutz]

The women hear are no better looking than any where else.

I beg to differ. I have been to most major cities in Canada many times and the women here do look better, they also have better attitudes.

 

[lgna69xxx]

Every city in the USA, CANADA, and frankly most cities in the WORLD have great looking women, no doubt, but i agree about the attitude part with Montreal ladies, 100%!

I beg to differ. I have been to most major cities in Canada many times and the women here do look better, they also have better attitudes.

 

[rumpleforeskiin]

http://www.manolith.com/2010/01/06/top-15-countries-with-the-hottest-women/

Must be that the rest of the country brings Canada down, because when they rate the cities in the world, Montreal comes in at number 10.

 

[rewindedforward]

...the French don't have the same option, which seems to me to be discrimination aimed at the French majority by the French powers-that-be.

Powers-that-be that don't face that discrimination. Wanna raise a bilingual kid if you're a francophone in Quebec? Oh it's simple enough. Just have money.

RF

 

[shijak]

While I don't have the personal history in Quebec that you do and, of course, I'm not nearly as old as you, but I do have on good authority, from long time locals mostly of the Hebrew persuasion, that it was more than just the church. I've been told that in the not too distant past a French person couldn't get service in a downtown department store if they didn't speak English and even then, if spoken with a French accent, they were treated as second class.

Reg, while this kind of thing may have happened (francophophones treated badly at retail outlets), all I have to say is GET OVER IT!! to the people who still bring this up!the early to mid part of the last century has many instances of specific ethnicities treating another with less than full respect. And that is ALL over North America!

Francophone Québécois are no better than the ''big, bad English'' and have no leg to stand on, no ''moral rightousness'' to hold over them: I have read many history books and seen archives on Québec from the thirties to the 50s and I could show you many b&w photographs that show we (the Québécois) were not at all adverse to discriminate against ''inferior'' ethnicities. Like how in public lakes were open to all to come bathe...oh, except for the jews....Help wanted ads written in french that would specify no blacks and no asians...

The 60s and the march for civil rights in the states and here as well swung the pendulum in the right direction as far as peoples' attitudes.

 

[Edouard]

Pour ceux qui se plaignent que le français prend trop de place au Québec, avez-vous remarqué que cette discussion, ici, sur MERB, se fait presqu'exclusivement en anglais?

 

[shijak]

Pour ceux qui se plaignent que le français prend trop de place au Québec, avez-vous remarqué que cette discussion, ici, sur MERB, se fait presqu'exclusivement en anglais?

Le ''Francais prend trop de place au Quebec'', vraiment? completement pas la base de cette discussion, Edouard...

 

[rumpleforeskiin]

Reg, while this kind of thing may have happened (francophophones treated badly at retail outlets), all I have to say is GET OVER IT!! to the people who still bring this up!the early to mid part of the last century has many instances of specific ethnicities treating another with less than full respect. And that is ALL over North America!

No argument, Spiffy, however resentments do linger. And, again, what goes around, comes around. Much of the French Charter, in my mind, is well justified in preserving the culture and much is over-reaction to past slights. What's that line about the sins of the father?

 

[Merlot]

Oh boy,

...there were never any laws against the French language here in Quebec.

Of course if one segment has a significant edge and de facto control of employment then laws are unnecessary to perpetuate its advantage.

Conflict and Language Planning in Quebec

http://books.google.com/books?id=dU...4APPkoDABA&ved=0CDQQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q&f=true

The English establishment’s domination of the Quebec economy has been documented by many authors. The Report of the Royal Commission on Bilingualism and Biculturalism (vol. 3, Canada, 1969) noted the concentration of francophone in low salaried occupations and the domination of higher management positions by anglophones.

From it’s findings, The Royal Commission concluded that French-Canadians were relatively more “disadvantaged” in Montreal than anywhere else in Canada. Lieberson’s (1970) detailed analysis of the relationship between ethnic origin, language, and income in Montreal showed a persistent pattern: a relative absence of strong economic pressure among the British to learn French, but a distinct gain for French-Canadians who acquired English. The Gendrons Commission’s report (Quebec 1972a) confirmed the above patterns. The Gendron report recommended that the Quebec government intervene to establish the primacy of French in the critical domain of the work world.

Clearly the status of English resulting from control of the Quebec economy by English-speaking North American interests, and the predominance of anglophones in management, presented an obstacle to the upward mobility of Quebec francophones.

...however resentments do linger. And, again, what goes around, comes around. Much of the French Charter, in my mind, is well justified in preserving the culture and much is over-reaction to past slights. What's that line about the sins of the father?

It's been asserted many times by members here that the condition of the French was of their own making, or a natural socio-economic evolution in one way or another, and that the current laws pushing French in the schools are xenophobic or biased, and that there was little cause for it. Yet, the same report above cited that before 1972 schools were divided along denominational lines so that even "Jews were classified by law to be included among Protestants and others of non-Catholic persuasion were urged to send their children to English schools. The Protestant sector thus evolved into a heterogeneous system in which children of a variety of linguistic and religious background received their schooling in English."

Really. so all non-Catholics, Jews, Hindis, Buddhists, Muslims, etc., were in the Protestant sector? Sounds like a familiar complaint in reverse.

While the extent of the new laws are abusive and Marois is clearly extreme, the current situation is only more open and more deliberate. While previous policies may not have been as directly abusive it did setup a bias. No, two wrongs never make a right. No one should be forced to be educated against their wishes. But it is disturbing that some basically deny there was a purposeful setup to make an advantage for one language that helped generate the current counter reaction, even if it has gone to absurd (in some cases) extremes. Such attitudes perpetuate the problem no matter how wrong the other side might be.

The logic that English is a more advantageous language for business in North America works only in the present. What if the huge exploding Spanish-speaking population in the Western Hemisphere turns that around, or the Chinese or Indians dominate world business. Will the English just drop their language and culture without reluctance, happily? NO!

really,

Merlot

 

[Techman]

Merlot, the reason for religious based school boards goes back to the influence of the Catholic Church in Quebec. Even then, there were both French and English school boards and even if the religious based boards existed today, the same language laws would apply to them.

As for the language laws, it is not just the new Bill 14 that is abusive, the existing laws are also abusive. Any law which allows ANONYMOUS complaints is abusive and wrong. I have no problem with requiring French on all commercial signs, even with having it dominant in size. I do have a problem with it having to be at least twice the size of other languages. Other languages of course is just another way of saying English because the laws do not seem to be applied as fervently to any other language.

When it comes to the language of schooling, my point of view is that any immigrant to this province who's children have been educated in English in their home country should have the right to educate their children in the language of their choice. It is especially harmful to the children of families who come here to work on a contract only to have to send their children to a school where they will not understand the language of instruction. These children pay the price by basically losing a year or more of education and have to start over again when they eventually return home. Immigrants who come from a country where the children were educated in a language other than English should be required to go to French schools.

And in case you didn't know, the INTERNATIONAL language of business is English. Not just here in North America. If the international language of business ever changes, intelligent businessmen will adapt to the change. Adapt or fade away. Cultures are always adapting and changing. This has been happening throughout human history. If they don't, they vanish. No laws made will ever prevent that, they can only delay it.

I am not in favour of any language or culture being forcibly put into a dominant position over any other. It has resulted in a stunted economy and has severely damaged business here in this province. It may be great for you Americans who come here for cheap sex, but not so good for those who actually have to earn a living and live here full time.

 

[Edouard]

Le ''Francais prend trop de place au Quebec'', vraiment? completement pas la base de cette discussion, Edouard...

Euh... Oui, c'est la base de la discussion. Sinon ça revient à dire que le contraire de "pile" n'est pas "face". C'est comme dire "ce n'est pas parce que je suis anti-pile que je suis pro-face, je suis juste anti-pile...". Oui, à vouloir empêcher le français de devenir la seule langue officielle du Québec, c'est l'équivalent de dire que le français prend trop de place.

 

[Techman]

Merlot,

Often the English writing on a sign is so small as to not even be readable when on a commercial sign, even signs in the Metro, where even the French language script is not very large. On traffic signs, both languages should be of equal size in the interest of safety. If you can actually find English on municipal signs, that is.

And yes, it does matter in today's economy if people can send their children to be educated in their native language in a public school. All companies today are cost cutting and private education can be very expensive, especially if a family has more than one child. Not all companies can afford this expense today. The school systems already exist, for now anyways. Why not allow them to be used? These people will never become citizens of this province. They should have the choice. Do you realize that Bill 14 originally intended to force the children of the Canadian Armed Forces to go to French school when parents are stationed here in Quebec? A huge total of about 700 students. Students who would never be residents of Quebec in the future.

Are you aware that most English schools today operate as much in French as they do in English? That students graduating from the English school system are fluently bilingual upon graduation? That many English Quebecers send their children to be educated in the French system to give them a head start for their life in Quebec? Did you know that the government plans to limit English language instruction given to French students to 6th grade and up, long after the best years for learning a second language have passed? Thereby limiting their future business possibilities?

And you are 100% correct that English being the language of business has a limited to no effect on the ability of any culture to survive and thrive. So why is the government here so adamant on limiting their population's chances of success in the business world by doing their best to keep them unilingual French speaking? Why do they insist on doing their utmost to make this province a collection of backwater hick towns where the best and brightest will continue to leave for greener pastures?

Why do you continue to attempt to defend something that you really do not comprehend? Something that there is no logical justification for?

 

[snoodle]

So why is the government here so adamant on limiting their population's chances of success in the business world by doing their best to keep them unilingual French speaking?

Its an inside job..The real goal of the PQ is to keep the quebec people down..

just like the CHURCH did for many decades !!!!

 

[Merlot]

Why do you continue to attempt to defend something that you really do not comprehend?

Tsk tsk tsk,

Why do you keep insisting on this route of reply. It's a self-serving and convenient statement that proves one thing. You're afraid your argument isn't good enough otherwise.

I have never defended Marois or those policies. You insist on saying so because, again, you're afraid you can't make your point without this distortion.

This is pointless. Find someone else to piss at.

adieu (means bye on this subject...in case your French isn't good enough),

Merlot

 

[Techman]

The problem I have with you, Merlot, is that you never pick a side. You always sit on the fence, trying to find good on both sides. That doesn't work here in this case. There is nothing good or defensible about discrimination.

 

[Gentle]

Don't you just love those babies always crying about language ?
http://www.vancouversun.com/life/Ri.../8105095/story.html?google_editors_picks=true

Fact remains :
------------------
ROC almost 2/3 is english speaking so... english is THE predominent language used.
(that's 57% for ya ! not even 3/4)
Quebec is more than 3/4 french speaking so... french is THE predominent language used.

If Canadians and Feds wants to cry babies then let them...
Canada is supposed to be billingual.

The day both French and English will be used equally d'un Ocean a l'autre... I will support putting everything in both language equally in Quebec.
Til then, let the hypocrites have a nice fit !

To anyone who wants to complain about Quebec I say 'STFU'. :lol::lol::lol:

See ya !

 

[Grosbaton]

News of the day in big Canada:
-Couillard just got elected chief of Québec Liberal Party. I can imagine all Québec liberal fans jerking off on that ugly cold like ice Bachand face!
Best news for PQ for a long long time. No way these guys can beat them for a long long time.
-Couillard looking for bringing back Canada constitution on the agenda...Québec independantists could not be happier!
-Charest obviously coming back to political life to fullfill the dream of his life: becoming Prime Minister of Canada. How will he apply for the job? Try to guess, he can only run against Justin Trudeau or Harper in their respective parties to reach that goal...
-In Vancouver, BC, local residents are gathering to oppose Chinese only businees signs. You guys opposing french sign legislation in Québec should feel happy, at least you can read those signs...
-In Edmonton, Alberta, a very down to earth sp is asking me $300 an hour + $50 for +$50 for datty (or $75 for both!). Should I ask her to take a trip to Montréal, or should I just shut up and wait to get myself back to Montréal!
So yes, Vive le Québec, vive le Québec the way that stupid french president dared qualify it...Because this Canada country does not make any sense when you seriously look at it on a geographical or cultural level.
This being said, I am not sure I want to give up on it... C`est quand même le plusse beau pays au monde! ( as expessed by JC some 2000 years after the original JC was born).

 

[rumpleforeskiin]

Rumples, enough of your Bullshit. You support the language laws being proposed in Quebec, even though you don't live here. You do seem to spend a lot of time here, yet you know ZERO French. Why is that ? If you do really have any respect for the French and their culture, you would be speaking and writing your posts in French also.

As I clearly stated in my initial post two pages ago, I support some of the language laws, some of them I don't and I find some of them self-defeating.

As for my inability to speak French, well, I'm new here, I'm older, and I'm learning. It doesn't come easy at my age. Now, how do you explain your inability to understand English?

 

[rewindedforward]

If by 'not too distant past' you mean 5 or 6 decades ago, well even then the so called fat lady at Eaton's who wouldn't serve French people is more of a fable than anything based in truth.

You're right. Because most French people couldn't afford to shop there.

We aren't in the 50s or the 60s anymore, this is the second decade of the 21st century. Women have the vote and blacks don't have to ride in the back of the bus. You would think that people would be intelligent enough by now to learn from the past instead of using it as an excuse to oppress others.

What does intelligence have to do with it? Show me one nation in the world or in history where two linguistically distinct people were able to share a land together in peace. Also, you think your federal government's hands are clean where the Indians are concerned?

It's well past time that everyone stood up for themselves and said enough is enough.

Yes, but not by perpetuating historical lies.

Enough of catering to a small group of xenophobes who insist of living in the past, enough of discrimination.

You tell me about discrimination and I'll tell you about a couple 80 year olds who have great stories about how they got unionized in Lac-St-Jean to get, among other rights, the right to be spoken to in French by their bosses.

If a culture requires discriminatory laws to survive, if it cannot survive on it's own merits, then it does deserve to survive.

Words that means little when your culture has been in the seat of oppression.

You make some good arguments, but the way you go about expressing them, this constant need to name-call, the Xenophobes are among us! is no better than the stuff I hear from some francos who would just as well ship you all out to Ontario.

RF