A thought about our community: feminism

[beautydigger]

Is it a smart thing to have feminists and feminist sympathizers highly regarded in a community that encourages and celebrates prostitution? Feminism opposes prostitution on the grounds that it degrades women and furthers the power politics of the male gender.
They tend to be mechanical in their analysis of prostitution, separating the moral and spiritual forces of relationships from the temporal forces. In doing so they present an incomplete view of relationships between men and women, as well as the intricate relationships between prostitutes and their clients.

 

[Miss Maria]

interesting views

These are very interesting views you have and I would love to hear you elaborate on them.

Feminists are for the equal treatment of women. Please do not put all Feminists in the same basket because they do not all hold the same beliefs, or oppinions, or interrests.

Prostitution everywhere in the world equals to alot of abuse. When men buy time with women, they are in fact objectifying women. Some feminist would go to the extent to say that women who prostitute themselves do not care for men because they allow them to objectify them. Instead of showing them what it is to love and care for someone, they offer them sex in exchange for money.

I am against any kind of abuse. I consider myself a Feminist. I can also see that men objectify women when seeing a prostitute.

I still make the choice to do what I do because I love it. Maybe what I am doing is fundamantally wrong for gaining respect by men, but I do it and I enjoy it very much. If you always do something you like, at least one person is happy.

 

[Juliana]

I agree with Miss Maria and Roxane.

Feminists do not discourage prostitution, it discourages abuses towards women, for example by pimps or by anyone (man or woman) who would take advantage of theyre body, for example, in cases of rapes.
If a women wants to make a living out of her body, and is tottaly in control of the situation, there is nothing wrong with that even if youre a feminist.

One cannot make generalisations about feminism because there is so many kinds of feminists

All feminists agree that no one shoud take advantage or abuse of women, childrem, blacks, native canadian, arabs, the mentaly ill, or sex workers.

 

[beautydigger]

Feminists do not discourage prostitution,
One cannot make generalisations about feminism because there is so many kinds of feminists
[/B]

An additional difficulty in forming a clear view of feminism is the fact that some feminists may ascribe to one ideology yet borrow ideas from another form of feminism. Feminists may embrace most of the tenets of a particular form of feminist theory, while rejecting a few of its precepts outright.

A Radical feminist certainly discourages prostitution. So which one are you?

 

[beautydigger]

Feminists are for the equal treatment of women. Please do not put all Feminists in the same basket because they do not all hold the same beliefs, or oppinions, or interrests.

While being able to ascribe to 5 different forms of feminism, how could one not be able to dispute anything bad said about it? Just wondering…if prostitution was legal, could a pimp be charged with sexual harassment at work?

 

[eastender]

Two Way Street

Feminists are for the equal treatment of women. Please do not put all Feminists in the same basket because they do not all hold the same beliefs, or oppinions, or interrests.

Prostitution everywhere in the world equals to alot of abuse. When men buy time with women, they are in fact objectifying women. Some feminist would go to the extent to say that women who prostitute themselves do not care for men because they allow them to objectify them. Instead of showing them what it is to love and care for someone, they offer them sex in exchange for money.

Two questions.

Are feminists for the equal treatment of women or are they for the equal treatment of all people?

When women sell time to men(to use your description), are they in fact objectifying men?

 

[beautydigger]

The old generation of principled feminists who fought for equal opportunity has been replaced by a new cadre of shrill, neurotic harpies that demand preferential treatment. These self-serving oppotunists characterize every inequality that works to the disadvantage of women as an inequity, but are oblivious to the advantages that all women enjoy.

 

[Miss Maria]

Two questions.

Are feminists for the equal treatment of women or are they for the equal treatment of all people?

When women sell time to men(to use your description), are they in fact objectifying men?

Dear eastender,

First of all I cannot pretend to be a professional on this matter. I am only a young 22 year old woman with some classes on femimist issues. I have been interested in Prostitution issues (trafficking of women and children) for a while now and have done some research on that too. I am not sure where I stand in every aspect of these arguments, since I am not properly educated in the matter.

All I can say is that I believe feminism is believing that there should be equality between men and women. Having the same respect for one then for the other. This automatically includes every race, religion and sexual orientation since in all of these there are women, men, and/or a mixture of both.

Feminism should not be seen as a crusade against men.

I am against abuse of any form.

Men objectify women when participating in this hobby. But men and women objectify women in many other parts of society also. Publicity, Music, Fashion are some examples. I am not saying this is good or bad. It just is a little sad. It is very interesting for me to discuss these issues.

Please enlighten me on how women objectify men in hobby activities. Would you say that it is because they want to get money? They moneyfy men, or bankify men?

If you look at prostitution worldwide, most of the time, it isn't even the prostitute who gets the money.

What I was talking about before was something a great friend of mine discussed with me one day. I found it very interesting. She had just found out that I had once worked as a webcam girl and it shocked her greatly. She asked me how could an intelligent, self-confident, pretty, funny girl like me need to almost prostitute myself. I had just started in the hobby at this point but she didn't know and never found out. I started arguing that we all had sexual desires that needed to be fulfilled and spending intimate time with someone is important for humans. Sometimes these needs were not accepted by society so we went and practiced it with someone who could easily come and go out of our lives. Someone who wouldn't judge us. She told me prostitute don't offer a true intimate time and that girls were infact being very disrespectful of men in this situation. In her mind, it is disrespectful for a woman to give it easy to the man instead of showing him what love and caring is. I see it a little bit different as to I feel love and care can be shared even in short moments of passion. I still think her point should be explored further.

Ah... just love one another!!!

Miss Maria
XXXXX

 

[Miss Maria]

How prostitution could be seen as abuse:

When using the power of your money to make someone do something they do not particularly want to do, then it is abusing the power of your money for your own self-gratification.


When using your sex-appeal to get money from a man without him particularly wanting to, then it would be abusing the power of your sex-appeal to gain wealth.



I am just putting these two statements down, please feel free to comment.

 

[happygolucky]

I don't know if any of you will find this relavent, but I love the question, "since when is money more sacred than sex?

I tend to oversimplify everything in my life & I have not really thought this though, but my take on this:

If the woman has the power to choose what she is doing & to walk away if she feels like it, feminists should embrace it.

If the woman has no options and has very little of any kind of gain(like monetary, for one), feminists should be against it.

The SP world runs the full spectrum of this power & options rainbow........ some women are treated as slaves, other are goddesss's


Me personally, I worship the women, who for whatever reason, share their sexual experiences with me!

 

[rumpleforeskiin]

These self-serving oppotunists characterize every inequality that works to the disadvantage of women as an inequity, but are oblivious to the advantages that all women enjoy.

And which advantages are these? The advantage of earning 60% of what men earn for similar work? The advantage of being denied entirely the right to work in certain jobs? The advantage of not being able to walk many streets alone after dark? The advantage of being accused of being suggestive after assaults? Of which advantages do you speak?

 

[Miss Maria]

thanks

Happygolucky,

I find your post very nice.

Thanks you

 

[eastender]

Objectifying

Men objectify women when participating in this hobby. But men and women objectify women in many other parts of society also. Publicity, Music, Fashion are some examples. I am not saying this is good or bad. It just is a little sad. It is very interesting for me to discuss these issues.

Please enlighten me on how women objectify men in hobby activities. Would you say that it is because they want to get money? They moneyfy men, or bankify men?

Miss Maria
XXXXX

Miss Maria,

To me objectifying would include, but not limited to, using another person regardless of gender,race, etc as a disposable object in order to reach a goal.

 

[happygolucky]

You are Welcome Miss Maria,

I was very lucky to get to visit Montreal for the first time last week. Even luckier, was I was able to book 4 truely wonderful women who without trying to have changed my life forever. I don`t know if it was because they felt the freedom knowing they would most likely never see me again, or that they were raised French-Canadian, or because they were Montreal GFE SP`s? They all were so very different, but they all made me realize, that I hold the keys to both my own happiness & sadness........ all the things holding me back are just imaginery hangups in my head.

I had heard a lot of the advice from other well meaning people both online & in person, but it just wasn`t real to me until I was with these women who in their actions freed me from a lot of the false beliefs that I held on to in my head. I am starting to care more about myself & less for the thoughts of people around me who hate. For example, I like to make women happy, but I did not think that I should DATY with a SP, I did not know that if some SP`s feel comfortable with you they will cimws.......... when a woman does that for me, I cannot help but feel that I want to make her just as happy & that there is nothing wrong with her(yeah, all the women were very clean down there). So I endded up daty with some tossing of salad, even though, I was 3 of the lady`s last client of the night and I feel so much better having done that. I also DFK`ed after cim, which I have never done before, with anyone. I don`t feel sick or dirty, just good & I can`t wait to do it again.

About the degrading in regard to feminism.......... life is F`ing degrading for everyone! In most marriages, both partners are degrading themselves..... who is the winner? The one who gives up the freedom & career to raise a family or the one who feels the constant pressure to go to work everyday in a lifeless job because they have a family to support....... both have a loss of freedom & choices, both, taken in other contexts have a very degrading life. Who has the power? The one that gets the paycheck...... knowing that they cannot spend it freely or the one who balances the books keeping close track of their spending & playing the fun police...... neither have power & both are much more degrading to both sexes. Life isn`t fair, neither is sex.

Just a month ago, I would have told you that any guy that shaves his balls is either a porn star or gay...... any guy that kisses(of any kind) after cim or daty after a woman has already had FS with other men, are also gay or pornstars. Now I feel that I should experience life before I make too many comments about things I don`t understand & if I like it, great for me.

I hope that today`s women understand that they have the freedom & choices within theirselves and they are best off if they make their own decisions on what is right or wrong....... without giving too much power to what people who haven`t lived their own lives, are saying with hate in their hearts & ignorance in their minds. In my mind Feminists are strong women who think for themselves.......... what is there not to LOVE about a woman who is strong & intelligent enough to find her own happiness.

I hope one day to get the chance to meet you Miss Maria, I feel you could show me even more about myself...... in the mean time take care,

HGL

 

[General Gonad]

Please enlighten me on how women objectify men in hobby activities. Would you say that it is because they want to get money? They moneyfy men, or bankify men?

It's not the size of his manhood but the size of his wallet that gets an SP all wet.

GG

 

[Bucky]

Feminists groups refused to share the money envelope given by the government to finance help facilities from men in distress, and a lot of them are suicidal, that's why you see so much "tragédies familiales" in the paper, men are depressive, alone, no resources to help them, so they turn to violence. Why not replace "Le conseil du statut de la femme" by "Le conseil du statut de l'humain" ans help whoever needs help ?

 

[happygolucky]

Quotes

HGL i wish there was a part in your post where i can sign my signature

A Class thoughts , feel like i wrote those lines ))

PeterNorth....... I think you did! HA! I don't remember where I got that line about "Since when is money more sacred than sex?" from someone else, was it your post? If it was, thank you, those are some very deep thoughts. How could I not bring them up, in regards to feminism & the hobby world? The rest of the posts, I don't think I stole anything from anybody else & those are truely my personal ideas......... I have read almost every post & comment on merb, merc & the eleganza club, so most of my ideas are not orginal source, but more like a evolution of thoughts based on many different opinions.

Still feel free to quote yourself & take credit for all of your past posts, within my posts. Sorry, I was not trying to steal anyone's ideas to pass off as my own. I think a lot of us here have very PRO-SP veiwpoints, so in regards to our hobby, we think the same? Thank you

 

[Juliana]

Good idea!!!!!!!!!

Feminists groups refused to share the money envelope given by the government to finance help facilities from men in distress, and a lot of them are suicidal, that's why you see so much "tragédies familiales" in the paper, men are depressive, alone, no resources to help them, so they turn to violence. Why not replace "Le conseil du statut de la femme" by "Le conseil du statut de l'humain" ans help whoever needs help ?

Bucky you got an excellent idea!
I would love to see this with a social/gender analyses of why most people killed in society are women and female childrem? Why some men project their hatred on women or thenselfs by means of violent crimes?

 

[General Gonad]

The abolitionist view may be oblivious to the reality that all sex-workers are not victims, the liberal view is just as oblivious to the reality that there IS damage. It doesn't fit any better in the argument than 'not all sex-workers are victimized by pimps' fits in the abolitionist argument. That damage won't suddenly disappear by eradicating some laws, though it will, I don't deny, improve some sex-workers' working conditions.

No, not all sex workers are pimped but all sex workers have been victims of poverty. And many sex workers have experienced physical abuse in their lives.

I'm all for the decriminalization of some aspects of prostitution to empower women, but I'm not for empowerment of the people who cause real damage by decriminalizing their activities. I'm also not for decriminalization unless it comes along with funds to empower those women who will never gain anything from any change to the Criminal Code. There are already laws against their assault, rape, in some cases murder, and there is a Charter that garantees them equal rights, though it doesn't mean a thing in practice. Decriminalization can never change the culture (judicial, police, mass) that conceives of sex-workers as second class citizens. Laws don't change cultures; cultures make laws.

I think it would make sense to decriminalize prostitution and regulate it like they do in the sate of Nevada where legal brothels are routinely checked by state health officials, ensuring that health norms are maintained. Also, by doing it this way, the government can tax this underground activity. Rates would go up but it would be a lot safer for the SPs and clients.

GG

 

[General Gonad]

Abuse among sex workers...

What are you talking about?? Do you have a clue of what you just stated?

Actually, I do. Note the discussion is on sex workers, not SPs who post on Merb.

Here is a quote from this study done at Columbia University:

http://hcc.med.vu.nl/artikelen/bassel.htm

"Our findings suggest that partner abuse is a common occurrence among sex workers. Two out of three street sex workers have experienced physical or sexual abuse by either an intimate partner or client. In addition, one out of eight sex workers reported physical and sexual abuse by both intimate partners and clients during their lifetime. Our findings also support what other studies have shown: street sex workers live in poverty, derive their livelihood from exchanging sex for money or drugs, and tend to have been incarcerated and homeless at some point. These macro social factors increase vulnerability and may also enhance the probability that the sex worker copes by using drugs.

While the prevalence of recent physical abuse by intimate partners was comparable to that of clients (20% versus 23.6%, respectively), the prevalence of recent sexual abuse by clients was 20.8%, which was twice as high as by intimate partners. We propose two possible explanations for this discrepancy. First, sexual violence by clients may occur more frequently because the clients perceive that they are entitled to sexually exploit women who trade sex. Moreover, sex workers may tolerate sexual abuse by these men because they view it as 'part of the job'. This is especially true for those who are homeless or whose primary source of income is prostitution. A second explanation for the disparity in the reported prevalence of recent sexual abuse may be related to the women’s tendency not to label, recognise, and define sexual coercion and rape in an intimate relationship as abuse and, consequently, such abuse is underreported. Sex workers who had an intimate partner reported fewer episodes of sexual and physical abuse by clients. We speculate that the woman’s intimate partner may protect her from exploitation by clients, or he may be her 'pimp'."

GG