American Politics and Government -- the never-ending struggle

[Mod 11]

Thread cleaned, some posts deleted, 1 member suspended and one on the verge of being suspended for going-along with the taunting.

No, the one on the verge isn't Vercing.

Any more takers for a suspension?

Thread will be reopened later.

 

[Mod 11]

Reopened.

This part of the message is for everybody who want to participate in this thread, NO EXCEPTION!

1. MERB rules now apply to this thread 100%. No more leniency, no case-by-case, no "he/she started it." bullshit.
   
2. Whoever breaks any rules will be held accountable, no matter when the feud started or who started it.
3. Any infractions will get sanctioned at a level seen as appropriate by the moderators. You don't think it's fair and think it's arbitrary? Read the section in red in the rules
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7. Off-topic posts will get deleted without notice and posters might get suspended.
8. This thread isn't about discussing MERB moderation.

I want to make it very clear: the free-for-all party is over!

 

[Vercingentorix]

So Aly Girl, this father was supposed to fight off these two heavily armed guys looking to kidnap his little girl with what? Oh, a ten shot rifle? No if you read this it was quite a struggle and these guys were vicious (descirbed as animals). You say this is the exception. Wow, would you have said the same thing to that sweet girl, Hadiya Pendleton, who got cut down with A HANDGUN (that's right no AR-15s for those gang bangers), even though Chicago has the toughest gun laws of any city?? Yes, and Chicago being the most violent large city in the US. Bottom line is that when only the criminals have guns the victims can't fight back. You want to depend on the Chicago Police that have acknowledged publicly that they cannot respond to all police calls, only ones where they know violence is happening. That means the prowler you report better have a knife or gun visable when you report it: http://news.yahoo.com/2-charged-slaying-chicago-honor-student-005334349.html?.tsrc=3ukhp

Father killed in Miami home invasion robbery while protecting little girl

Two heavily armed men stormed into a Miami home, killing a man who was trying to protect his young daughter. Police are still looking for the suspects.

Walter Michot/Miami Herald Staff


•Man killed in Miami home invasion while protecting little girl


•Photos


By Maria LaMagna

[email protected]


As she slept Tuesday night, a real-life nightmare unfolded in an 11-year-old girl’s home.

Two men, heavily armed, broke into her family’s Model City home, demanded cash and then shot Maurice Renard Harris, 36, several times as he tried to protect his family.

The killers, with bandanas covering their faces, then fled.

“These men are beasts,” Miami police spokeswoman Kenia Reyes said Wednesday. “A little girl was asleep when she was surprised by the gunfire. The father was just trying to protect her.”

Watching the whole thing: Harris’ wife of six years, Shakila Stewart.

“He meant everything to me,” Stewart said. “He was my provider.”

During an emotional news conference at police headquarters Wednesday afternoon, Stewart pleaded with anyone who might have information about her husband’s slaying to come forward.

“It would mean the world to me and it would give [our] kids closure,” she said.

The couple also have a 15-year-old son who was not home at the time of the invasion.

Her husband had no enemies, Stewart said. “Everybody loved him.”

Neighbors said the family had moved into the home about six months ago.

Miami Police Sgt. Confesor Gonzalez said the intruders targeted the home, but didn’t know the residents.

Harris had been out earlier and might have been followed home, police suggested.

According to police, the armed men entered the home at 4315 NW 16th Ave. just before midnight and demanded cash. When Harris said he didn’t have any money, the men grabbed an unidentified item and headed toward a bedroom where the 11-year-old girl was sleeping.

That’s when Harris, trying to defend his family, wrestled one of the men to the floor and was shot several times, police said. The armed men ran out the door and vanished.

Miami Fire-Rescue took Harris to Jackson Memorial Hospital’s Ryder Trauma Unit. He died minutes later.

“To say this is a senseless death would be a huge understatement,” Gonzalez said. “The sanctity of their home was violated.”

Police said they are looking at other recent home break-ins to see if there is a pattern.

“These guys may have done this before and may do it again,” Gonzalez said.

A man who identified himself as Harris’ landlord but said he didn’t want to be named called the family “excellent tenants.”

“It’s a sad, sad situation,” he said, adding that his family has owned property in the neighborhood for 49 years. “[The incident] is very strange for this strip [of houses] right here.”

Neighbors say Harris had a medical condition which prevented him from working.

According to a Miami Herald records search, Harris had been arrested several times, charged with selling cocaine, drug possession, loitering, resisting arrest and battery. He was convicted on the drug and loitering charges.

Protecting his family from harm was in her husband’s nature, Stewart said. “He was a devoted father; he loved me and his kids.”

A family member said the 11-year-old girl talked of the “demons” who came into the home and how much she missed her father, but knows how much he loved her.

“We never get used to seeing a daughter lose her father,” Gonzalez said.

Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/2013/02/13/3231686/man-killed-in-miami-home-invasion.html#storylink=cpy

From a personal standpoint a few months ago two hispanic men attempted to kick in my front door. Fortunately, I'd had the good sense to have my doors hardened (installation of steel rails, upgraded locks, hinge reinforcements, lockset protectors) about a month prior. They actaully kicked a hole in the door, but the door and frame wouldn't give way. I wasn't home, but can you imagine if they'd been able to breach the premises? Note, not everyone has the extra grand or so to upgrade their doors.

Allow me to explain something about the above crimes. Both of them were perpetrated by multiple men against singular targets. It's a base premise of military experience that the only way for a smaller force (i.e. one) to consistently & effectively fight off superior numbers is by having greater firepower. A Semi-Automatic (i.e. AR-15) might have turned the tide in either of the above shootings. So let's see Aly Girl, you want to hold a ten shot handgun against two big guys invading your home with semi-automatic handguns? You further believe by restricting everyone to have only 10 shots that these guys are going to play by these rules?

 

[anon_vlad]

Statistics show that having a gun in the house makes it overwhelmingly more likely for the inhabitants to be injured or killed. Against the very remote chance of actually facing a home invasion and being able to deploy the weapon in time to avert injury, (who walks around their own house with a loaded gun constantly their pockets?) accidents are far more probable. Also, the damage children, visitors or adult family members can inflict if in an unstable mental state is greatly magnified if a gun is available.

 

[Vercingentorix]

anon_vlad;

I belive you are wrong and your claims cannot be supported. Please support your claims with statistical evidence from a reliable source. Please don't make a claim if you can't support it.

 

[anon_vlad]

New England Journal of Medicine
http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMe0802118

Firearms were used to kill 30,143 people in the United States in 2005, the most recent year with complete data from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.
A total of 17,002 of these were suicides, 12,352 homicides, and 789 accidental firearm deaths.

National Academies Press
http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=10881&page=118
Both Kellermann and Reay (1986) and Rushforth et al. (1974) compare fatalities caused by self-defense and other motivations. Both studies find that people using guns in self-defense account for a small fraction of fatalities in the home. Kellermann and Reay find that there were nearly 5 times as many homicides and 37 times as many suicides as perpetrators killed in self-defense. They go on to conclude, “The advisability of keeping a firearm in the home for protection must be questioned.” Rushforth et al. (1974) found similar results and drew similar conclusions.
Kellermann et al. (1993) found that persons who had a firearm in the home were at a greater risk for homicide in their home than persons who did not have a firearm (adjusted odds ratio of 2.7). Cummings et al. (1997) found that persons who purchased a handgun were at greater risk for homicide than their counterparts who had no such history (adjusted odds ratio of 2.2).
In light of these findings, Kellermann et al. (1993) ultimately conclude that owning firearms for personal protection is “counterproductive,” (p. 1087) and that “people should be strongly discouraged from keeping guns in the home” (p. 1090).

 

[Mod 11]

Guys, FOLLOW THE RULES! Next useless quote, the entire post will get deleted without further notice.

Thanks

 

[Vercingentorix]

National Academies Press
http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=10881&page=118 Both Kellermann and Reay (1986) and ........uns in the home” (p. 1090).

Note to Mod 11, I shortened this only to reference that I was responding only to a part of his quote.

The use of the above study in your example is flawed. Let's understand that the study found "Both studies find that people using guns in self-defense account for a small fraction of fatalities in the home". The study apparently found that people were more likely to use a gun in the commission of a homicide or suicide than they were to use some other form like knives, pills, bats, vacuum cleaners in the eye, etc....etc.. People in Japan have a much higher rate of suicide than in the US by 5 times if I'm to believe a recent news story and they're not allowed to have guns. I can only suppose that they fall on their swords. We don't have a lot of swords in the US.

People have been committing suicide and killing each other in the home since time started. Wasn't it the misguided Oedipus (of Greek Mythology) that killed his father to marry his mother? and we're not even going to talk about Shakespeare.....The English court used poisons a lot and I believe the Turks liked knives.

The moral of the story is if someone wants to kill themselves or someone in their home, they'll find a way.

Firearms were used to kill 30,143 ........, and 789 accidental firearm deaths.

With regards to this portion of your argument it's absolutely clear that 789 is a miniscule portion of the overall. Of course we hate to see even this many, but our resources can be used elsewhere to accomplish more than saving 789. With regards to the balance of that portion of your post, again people are going to commit suicide. They did it in the Bible, they did it in the dark ages, they did it during the Renaissance.....well you get the idea.

As to the "12,352 homicides", Merriam-Webster defines "homicide" as:
Definition of HOMICIDE
1: a person who kills another
2: a killing of one human being by another

I guess my response to this is that in order to turn around this statistic around we'll need not only to disarm the public, but also the Police, FBI, criminals, etc...etc...I'm full in suport of this as long as President Obama's Secret Service Detail is the first ones to give up their guns. We'll give them water pistols.:lol:

 

[anon_vlad]

Did you ignore this?

Kellermann et al. (1993) found that persons who had a firearm in the home were at a greater risk for homicide in their home than persons who did not have a firearm

 

[Vercingentorix]

>>> Deleted. See my post #197, slightly above. Next useless quote in this thread.will grant a suspension to the poster. Mod 11.

 

[rewindedforward]

Wasn't it the misguided Oedipus (of Greek Mythology) that killed his father to marry his mother? and we're not even going to talk about Shakespeare.....

I'm surprised you didn't mention our contemporary, Dexter.

You know, I could point you to this literature review by David Hemenway, director of the Harvard Injury Control Research Center, which finds that having a gun in your home significantly increases your risk of death - and that of your spouse and children, or this study by the American Academy of Pediatrics, which finds that the absence of guns from children's homes and communities is the most reliable and effective measure to prevent firearm-related injuries in children and adolescents, but you'd probably say something like "the use of the above studies is flawed". And then, of course, you'd fail to offer any reason as to why the said-studies were flawed. I guess the obvious reason for this is that you are actually GOD and therefore know far more about how the world works than a bunch of simple-minded academics. That leaves me with one question: if you are GOD, what the fuck are you doing hanging around of Merb?

RF

 

[anon_vlad]

I only have one question AV. If I want to go out Wild Boar Hunting in South GA or North Florida will you stand next to me with your bow and arrow while the boar is charging at us?

Of course, I want a gun if I am keeping company with wild boars.

However, I don't want a gun or any anything else at home which is more likely to hurt my family than protect us.

 

[Vercingentorix]

To both of you: It has always been my position that mandatory training, along with univeral background checks, is a must when it comes to guns. I draw the line at registration as Canada's own experience has shown that such lists are a precursor to confiscation. Canadians may not prize their rights, but Americans do.

The modern responsible gun owner maintains a home defense plan that includes storage, maintenance and plan of use. As you can see by my personal story above, my first plan of defense worked quite well with total damages to the property being less than $100.00. Further, I never had to draw my weapon. I maintain my AK47 and my AR-15 in a highly secured in wall gun safe, as I sincerely hope I'll never have to pull them out for anything other than my semi-yearly practice and cleaning. My Glock 17 is in my bedside biometric mini-safe (i.e. I'm the only one that can open it).

The simple fact is that guns are here to stay in the US. It's quite interesting that CAD gun laws are now actually loosening up as authorities have found the registersing and confuscation of guns is a loosing proposition. The second amendment is here to stay not only from the perspective of protection against crime but also as protection against a tyrantical government. Before you go commenting on the ridiculousness of such a use, let's understand that BO has so split the country that Texas was able to get over 100K signatures to a Petition to Secede from the Union. That even though many (like myself) were too scared to sign such a document, floating around Florida, for fear of retaliation from authorities.

PS: AV, Wild Boars in FL & GA can get to be the size of small horses. You really don't want to go hunting with a .22 LR for one of these fellows. The hunters in Texas go after them from Choppers & Planes. Before someone comments on such cruelty of such expliots read this: http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/huntwild/wild/nuisance/feral_hogs/

 

[Gentle]

I only have one question AV. If I want to go out Wild Boar Hunting in South GA or North Florida will you stand next to me with your bow and arrow while the boar is charging at us?

1st-As far as I know wild boars don't kill many thousands Americans every godam year.

2nd-To kill a wild boar (when he's charging at you) you have to shoot them right square in the head for if you shoot at any angle the bullet will glance right off and they'll get up and keep on coming. Their skulls are so thick in the front, and the way their heads have that kind of curved shape is making them extremely difficult to kill when he's charging.

So how about we go hunting together ?
Since you guys don't want any gun control you can bet your a$$ I will have something way bigger than just an assault rifle...

Just be careful if you hear me sayin' 'Fox Three' !
I kinda like my wild boars 'Mechoui style' ! and that would go for any of my neighbor if he happens to go bezerk !

See ? that's what it will lead to !

 

[Merlot]

I only have one question AV. If I want to go out Wild Boar Hunting in South GA or North Florida will you stand next to me with your bow and arrow while the boar is charging at us? PS:

AV, Wild Boars in FL & GA can get to be the size of small horses.

Yeah right,

Notice you didn't say you actually went hunting...much less confronted a giant boar.

I know enough about you, and in my opinion I doubt you have the stamina or courage to hunt a caged chicken. Knights and kings with the guts for hand to hand combat in open battle have been killed by boars. What chance for a tech dependent who can't cope without his modern gadgets.

Canadians may not prize their rights, but Americans do.

I maintain my AK47 and my AR-15 in a highly secured in wall gun safe, as I sincerely hope I'll never have to pull them out for anything other than my semi-yearly practice and cleaning. My Glock 17 is in my bedside biometric mini-safe (i.e. I'm the only one that can open it).

You mean Canadians didn't grow up brainwashed by cowboy movies and the NRA to think they need a gun to have manhood.

Of course any home invaders have been trained in fair play to make plenty of noise and/or allow you enough time to open the safe. Just in case you happen to be far from your safes they make appointments to warn you.

...boars don't kill many thousands Americans every godam year.

Gentle, I'm shocked you don't know about the great Georgia boar infestation. There's roadkill everywhere, hence the huge plunge in Georgia pork prices.

All I see from Verc are a lot of poor pseudo justifications. Government conspiracies and giant boars....puuuuuleeeeeze! Why can't gun owners just be honest and say...we like shooting the damn guns and feel cool doing it. There's nothing wrong with that so why are they so afraid of saying so.

Study after study proves Anon is correct. Owning a gun makes the danger to the owner far more likely than getting a chance to defend himself with it.

Cheers,

Merlot

 

[Mod 11]

Ok, when American Politics revolves around wild boar, it means nothing good is left to discuss. I see some tendencies where, without direct insults for now, it's getting there. That's no go but, it's useless to warn again.

Thread closed.

Those who want to discuss American politics, American gun control and other American-related politico-social stuff can do it elsewhere, not on MERB.

Each time there's a discussion of this kind, it goes nowhere fast and occupy way too much of the time we have to dedicate to moderation. We have now decided we will no longer get along with it.

No need to open more thread complaining of this decision, no need to flood our PM boxes: threads will get deleted, PM ignored and, after a while, the originators might have a surprise accessing MERB.

Thanks