Bill Clinton comes through once again!!

[Doc Holliday]

America is so fortunate to count on this political superhero

North Korean President Kim Jong Il has pardoned and ordered the release of two U.S. journalists, state-run news agency KCNA said Wednesday.
President Clinton met Tuesday with North Korea leader Kim Jong Il.

The announcement came after former U.S. President Bill Clinton met with top North Korean officials in Pyongyang to appeal for the release of Laura Ling and Euna Lee, who had been arrested while reporting from the border between North Korea and China.

"Clinton expressed words of sincere apology to Kim Jong Il for the hostile acts committed by the two American journalists against the DPRK after illegally intruding into it," the news agency reported. "Clinton courteously conveyed to Kim Jong Il an earnest request of the U.S. government to leniently pardon them and send them back home from a humanitarian point of view.

"The meetings had candid and in-depth discussions on the pending issues between the DPRK and the U.S. in a sincere atmosphere and reached a consensus of views on seeking a negotiated settlement of them."

The report said Clinton then conveyed a message from President Obama "expressing profound thanks for this and reflecting views on ways of improving the relations between the two countries."

It added, "The measure taken to release the American journalists is a manifestation of the DPRK's humanitarian and peace-loving policy.

"The DPRK visit of Clinton and his party will contribute to deepening the understanding between the DPRK and the U.S. and building the bilateral confidence."

DPRK is the Democratic People's Republic of Korea, the nation's official name.

The two American journalists had been held in the reclusive communist nation since their arrest in March.

A statement from their families was posted Tuesday on the Web site lauraandeuna.com:

"The families of Laura Ling and Euna Lee are overjoyed by the news of their pardon. We are so grateful to our government: President Obama, Secretary Clinton and the U.S. State Department for their dedication to and hard work on behalf of American citizens. We especially want to thank President Bill Clinton for taking on such an arduous mission and Vice President Al Gore for his tireless efforts to bring Laura and Euna home."

Earlier in the day, White House Secretary Robert Gibbs said Clinton was on a "solely private mission to secure the release of two Americans."

Ling and Lee are reporters for California-based Current TV -- a media venture launched by Clinton's former vice president, Al Gore.

The two were sentenced in June to 12 years in prison on charges of entering the country illegally to conduct a smear campaign. Since the United States has no diplomatic relations with North Korea, efforts to resolve the issue had been handled through Sweden, which represents U.S. interests in North Korea.

The visit by the former president, whose wife, Hillary Clinton, is now the Obama administration's secretary of state, came about three weeks after the United States dropped a request that Ling and Lee be released on humanitarian grounds. Instead, the United States was seeking amnesty for the women, Hillary Clinton said. Video Watch what may lie behind the pick of Bill Clinton »

A plea for amnesty implies forgiveness for some offense, which could have given North Korea the chance to release the women without feeling that its legal system had been slighted, according to analyst Mike Chinoy, an Edgerton senior fellow on Asia at the Pacific Council on International Policy in Los Angeles.

Prior to the release, Chinoy said, "I suspect that it was made pretty clear in advance that Bill Clinton would be able to return with these two women, otherwise it would be a terrible loss of face for him."

Clinton's mission came as the United States and its allies in the region are seeking to push North Korea back into stalled nuclear disarmament talks. North Korea conducted a nuclear bomb test, its second, in May, and has conducted several missile tests since then. The United Nations responded to those tests by tightening and expanding sanctions on the nation.

North Korea and the United States were on opposite sides in the 1950-1953 Korean War and had no regular contacts before a 1994 crisis over North Korea's nuclear program. North Korea agreed at that time to halt the development of nuclear weapons, but abandoned that accord and withdrew from the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty in 2003.
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Clinton had considered visiting North Korea in 2000, near the end of his second term as president. His secretary of state, Madeleine Albright, went to Pyongyang in early 2000 to meet with Kim.

The 67-year-old North Korean leader was widely reported to have suffered a stroke a year ago and is believed to be grooming his youngest son, Kim Jon Un, as his successor.

http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/asiapcf/08/04/nkorea.clinton/index.html

 

[CLAVIE]

I think it s a blow self-publicity of Bill Clinton


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-SQ34mPcbeU

 

[EagerBeaver]

"Clinton expressed words of sincere apology to Kim Jong Il for the hostile acts committed by the two American journalists against the DPRK after illegally intruding into it," the news agency reported. "Clinton courteously conveyed to Kim Jong Il an earnest request of the U.S. government to leniently pardon them and send them back home from a humanitarian point of view.

Exactly what hostile act did these two journalists commit? They evidently got lost near the border and accidentally ventured into North Korea, although it's not even clear that they were apprehended in North Korean territory. To me, it sends a message that if any foreign nationals come within sniffing distance of the border, they are to be kidnapped, arrested, and charged with some phoney baloney bullshit so that political concessions can be extracted from the USA and maximum propaganda obtained in the subsequent negotiations for release.

I do not believe that the US government should get involved every single time some nitwit with their own private agenda and not the USA's agenda engages in some reckless adventuring in foreign countries hostile to not only the US but also the rest of the world. Now we have the same situation with a few idiotic journalists who got arrested at the Iranian border after being warned about 10 times by Kurdish authorities not to go into the area where they were caught. At some point individuals need to be accountable for their own fucked up choices.

The only reason Clinton got personally involved is because these two women worked for a media company owned by Al Gore. Otherwise nobody that could have negotiated their release would have given two shits about them.

 

[BobKnob]

Propaganda Games

The main point is that these 2 young American women get out of North Korea.
That is what counts. Good job Pres Bill.

The North Koreans can play whatever propaganda games they want, no one believes them anyway.

 

[Ben Dover]

Well said EB, but that doesn't take away from the fact that Bill Clinton is still the man

He knew he'd come home from this looking like a hero...


BD

 

[Merlot]

Hello all,

Apologizing to Kim Jong Il by anyone after the North Korean government and the media made the arrest of Laura Ling and Euna Lee into a very public political test is discomforting. The arrest should never have become the diplomatic event it became. As secretary of State Hillary Clinton suggested, the journalists should just have been deported. Unfortunately the desperate North Korean government seems to need to make use of every opportunity as a political chess piece to leverage against the U.S. and the West, and will continue to play it's diplomatic games no matter how inappropriate or foolish.

While the U.S. government and it's prestige should not be put in a position of defending and freeing anyone who deliberately takes unreasonable risks for any reason, much less corporate profits, it was necessary to end this episode to remove it as a diplomatic leverage piece by the North Koreans. Having Bill Clinton handle the matter spares the U.S. government from official involvement and removes the episode as a stumbling block to future negotiations.

However, though the U.S. government did not officially lower itself to Kim Jong Il in this incident, the U.S. government's closeness as represented by Bill Clinton is troubling because of what political rivals like Iran and others may make of the effectiveness of this episode in the future...even if it seems pointless to us.

Cheers,

Merlot

 

[rollingstone]

I do sympathize with people caught in this manner, but sometimes I question what they were doing all the way out there to begin with! Recently three Americans were arrested by Iran for crossing the border illegally:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090804/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iran_detained_americans

The three claimed they were hiking in the mountains and accidentally strayed across the border in an area where it was not marked. I really find that hard to believe, and even if it was true, it sounds like an act of monumental stupidity! Of all the places they could walk around, it just had to be this mountainous border area!

Generally speaking, some of the poorer countries that cant afford to patrol their entire border lay mines instead and put up signs to warn people. Of course the signs can wither away with time so its never a good idea to go hiking along borders.

 

[EagerBeaver]

Rollingstone.

The 3 were journalists, and this has been conclusively established by their employers. They are the 3 I referred to in my earlier post. They were warned repeatedly by Kurdish authorities not to venture into the area where they were caught. They were pursuing their own private agenda and they and their employers are free to hire whomever they want to extricate themselves from their current situation (such as Iranian lawyers). It is not the problem of the US government.

 

[Doc Holliday]

I do not believe that the US government should get involved every single time some nitwit with their own private agenda and not the USA's agenda engages in some reckless adventuring in foreign countries hostile to not only the US but also the rest of the world.

The only reason Clinton got personally involved is because these two women worked for a media company owned by Al Gore. Otherwise nobody that could have negotiated their release would have given two shits about them.

Tell that to the girls' families. I'm certain, like the majority of decent people on this planet, that they appreciate what former President Clinton did for them. He stepped up to the plate & hit a grandslam. What a great man he is & its sad that people today do not appreciate his greatness.

 

[Techman]

The report said Clinton then conveyed a message from President Obama "expressing profound thanks for this and reflecting views on ways of improving the relations between the two countries."

Not bad. North Korea tests ballistic missles and nuclear weapons and all is forgiven because they released two stupid women who shouldn't have been anywhere near there in the first place. That makes lots of sense.

What a great man he is & its sad that people today do not appreciate his greatness.

If anyone doubts how great he is all they have to do is ask Monica Lewinsky.

 

[Doc Holliday]

If anyone doubts how great he is all they have to do is ask Monica Lewinsky.

Well, i must admit that his tastes in women aren't that great. Lewinsky, Paula Jones, yech!!!!

(I guess he didn't have the same tastes in women as JFK....who fucked hundreds of knockouts in his lifetime)

And he couldn't even get in the sack with Lewinsky....all he got was a couple of lousy blowjobs from this fatty!!

(However, when you're married to a lesbian, anything or anyone will do, i suppose......)

 

[Merlot]

Tell that to the girls' families. I'm certain, like the majority of decent people on this planet, that they appreciate what former President Clinton did for them. He stepped up to the plate & hit a grandslam. What a great man he is & its sad that people today do not appreciate his greatness.

Hello Doc,

EB is being too narrow about why Clinton got involved. It's probably a combination of serving general U.S. interests, the likely impact of his prestige, continuing legacy, and ego. He wasn't a great President, but he was a very good caretaker making the best of a prosperous time. Had he not let the Republican-led Lewinski investigations divert him from destroying Osama and Al Qeada in 1998, and avoided a few other mistakes, he might have been better.

The truth is, in this case by this time the North Koreans probably figured they had gotten all they could out of their deliberately manufactured incident and were looking for a way out to capitalize as much as they could and save face. It was time, and the prestige of Clinton gave the North Koreans the political points they wanted at the right time.

And he couldn't even get in the sack with Lewinsky....all he got was a couple of lousy blowjobs from this fatty!!

(However, when you're married to a lesbian, anything or anyone will do, i suppose......)

Okay, ROFLMAO...but it's still LOW!

Cheers,

Merlot

 

[Doc Holliday]

Obama should have sent them Sarah Palin, get that lunatic Kim Jong Il to fall in love with her, and tell the dictator he can keep her.

 

[GTA refugee]

We get something, they get something. Thats how politics work. What you see up front is the floor show.

 

[Ben Dover]

If he wasn't a great president i don't know who was, times seemed to be pretty good when he was running the ship, to early to tell yet about Obama but Clinton was the best in the last 30 to 40 years, what part of middle class prosperity was it that you didn't like. Clinton got dragged thru the mud for the things he did in his personal life but despite all of this he was one of the most popular presidents ever when he left office so this man did something right. Lets not forget the country was possibly slipping into a recession when Clinton took office

I have to agree with you Jeff.

Every president makes mistakes and Clinton made a few big ones, especially in his personal life. When you boil it down however, I don't think many folks could argue that he was not a brilliant statesman. If it were not for the media hammering into his personal affairs, I think he would have been able to get a lot more done. His dalliances were nothing compared to JFK who is somehow much more revered (partly because of how he died)... Clinton, in terms of raw intelligence and political acumen, as well as successful stewardship of the socio-economic climate compares favorably to almost any other president of the past century. Was he perfect? No... Is Obama perfect? No... Will anyone ever be perfect... Probably not.


BD

 

[Doc Holliday]

If he would have avoided the scandals in his personal life many would look at him much differently.

What never ceases to amaze me is that i'd expect most of the people on this board to agree that his so-called scandals were meaningless & basically created by a witch-hunt from the right. Those 'scandals' involved sex. A large percentage of the membership of this board are married/attached men. It's shocking they would put so much emphasis on those 'scandals' when wanting to put Clinton down. I'd at least expect them to take a broader view of things & realize that his faults were minimal at the most & that after all, he's a man.

European leaders couldn't believe all the fuss about Clinton possibly having mistresses, since for them, it's almost a part of life & expected.

 

[Merlot]

What never ceases to amaze me is that i'd expect most of the people on this board to agree that his so-called scandals were meaningless & basically created by a witch-hunt from the right. Those 'scandals' involved sex. A large percentage of the membership of this board are married/attached men. It's shocking they would put so much emphasis on those 'scandals' when wanting to put Clinton down. I'd at least expect them to take a broader view of things & realize that his faults were minimal at the most & that after all, he's a man.

European leaders couldn't believe all the fuss about Clinton possibly having mistresses, since for them, it's almost a part of life & expected.

Hello Doc,

Most obviously you aren't talking about me. I don't hold the fact that Clinton received oral sex from Lewinski against Clinton at all. That is not part of how I evaluate his Presidency. In my view it was a meaningless event when it happened. So the sex was irrelevant to me. The relevant part was how the Republicans used it to disrupt the President's work. It was a witch hunt that had no legal basis since Lewinski was an adult and there was never any accusation of coercion or force from her. But he was extremely stupid in lying about it under oath. By the time he testified under oath his wife and daughter and the country had long known what had happened. All he had to do was say it happened, and that's it. What could the Republicans have done after that. Gee, you admit to a consensual act everyone knows about and there is nothing more to pursue. Bill: I did it...so what...end of story.

Remember though that his choice of relaxing restrictions on "gays" in the military (to a small part) and to pursue national health care (to a far greater part) gave the Republicans control of the House of Representatives after the 1994 mid-term elections for the first time in 40 years, and put them in a position to run investigation committees their way. Clinton's early political agenda including those two subjects helped set up many of his troubles afterward with a Republican House run by those out to destroy a President they hated.

They say great Presidents need a great test. Washington had to build a country and establish confidence and many precedents for the future, Lincoln had to stop it's self-destruction and re-structure social and economic order, F.D. Roosevelt had to save a country and maybe the world from economic collapse then fight a world war, Truman had to make many moral and political choices against communism and totalitarianism. Where was Clinton's test...terrorism. Flubbed it in Somalia, backed off in Afghanistan. Yeah he had a lot of accomplishments, on crime, trade, nuclear stabilization, job creation, education that were notable at the time. Some of them dubious because it allowed more jobs to go overseas, an effect greatly exasperated by G.W.Bush. But how many of his accomplishments have lasted to benefit us to today...his fault or not. The accomplishments of Washington, Lincoln, F.D. Roosevelt, and Truman have been far more durable.

That he was very well supported and popular with the American people was both about being a very good economic caretaker and great resentment for Republican persecution over what was really nothing. Hey I always believed greatness was within Clinton. But he was the beneficiary of the economic effects of a then maturing technical revolution that extended economic boom well beyond normal cycles.

Bravo and many thanks to Clinton on his international diplomatic skills. He was always one of the best at that. But, overall I give him a 3.5 of 5 at best.

Cheers,

Merlot

 

[EagerBeaver]

Clinton's Legacy

I didn't vote for Clinton, either time he ran, although I did vote for Obama. His main problem in the Lewinsky affair was lying under oath. Nobody really was that bothered by what happened with Lewinsky, although she was White House staff and a female subordinate and the sex happened in the White House. This was indiscreet behavior. I don't have a problem with Clinton banging a hot 23 year old, but don't fuck anyone on your staff and not in the White House. He could have banged any 23 year old, and if Spitzer could get away with it for years and only get caught when he put his name on a wire transfer, Clinton could have figured out a more discreet way to fuck a nonstaffer or hooker. Spitzer is proof that it can be done.

But those indiscretions are in my eyes not as bad as lying under oath. He should have just come clean and the whole thing would have gone away sooner and not been as big an issue for him. Veracity means a lot, and when a politician fucks up most people want to hear him admit it and not lie and make the situation worse. Especially when the lie is ridiculous. And it is simplistic to say that this only bothered Republicans, it bothered every American who cares about the veracity of their leaders.

Clinton has a certain snake oil salesman quality about him that makes some people uncomfortable with him. This is in opposition to Obama who seems like a straight shooter who tells it like it is for better or worse, even speaking his mind on the Gates controversy before all the facts were in. I kind of like this quality of Obama, even though he fucked up in his handling of the Gates matter which he should not have commented on. Clinton however has a certain slickness about him that you are not really certain if he believes some of his own statements, which are highly calculating and are made with a view towards effect rather than candor. I guess that makes him a talented politician and diplomat which nobody denies.

However, in his capacity as elder statesman, Clinton seems to have more cache internationally than his predecessors. If this quality can be used to advance US policy and interests even when they overlap with Clinton's own personal agenda, then I am all for it. In the past he has undertaken some very productive initiatives like the Tsunami relief effort with ex President Bush. I suspect he may have more of a legacy as an elder statesman and diplomat than he did as a President. It had been envisioned that he would become Ambassador to the UN but perhaps his role in the Obama Administration has just been defined: "Unofficial US Ambassador-At-Large."

 

[Doc Holliday]

Hello Doc, Most obviously you aren't talking about me. I don't hold the fact that Clinton received oral sex from Lewinski against Clinton at all. That is not part of how I evaluate his Presidency. In my view it was a meaningless event when it happened. So the sex was irrelevant to me.

I was just generalizing. And i do agree with your statement above.

 

[Doc Holliday]

His main problem in the Lewinsky affair was lying under oath.

Yeah, he lied about the fact he was screwing around on his wife. He was also the most powerful man in the world when he lied about this & it would have been embarrassing to admit to the truth. It also potentially would have ruined his marriage. Any sane person, guilty or not, would have done the same thing. It was a witch-hunt & he wasn't going to go along with their ploy to bring down the Presidency.

What would have been better? That he pull a Jimmy Swaggart & go on live tv & cry like a baby in front of millions, asking for forgiveness from his loved ones? Come on!

Clinton was set up & everyone knew what the Republicans when Congress named Ken Starr as it's point man in leading the investigation. They either were to embarrass Clinton in front of the world, or hope he'd deny everything & like under oath, so then they could move along with impeachment charges.

By the way, did Clinton really lie under oath? What he said was that he didn't have 'sexual relations' with Lewinsky. Since it is well known that all he got was a couple of blow jobs, does the terminology 'sexual relations' apply in this case? There was no intercourse involved. I think that many would find this debatable. It's possible that Clinton also knew very well what his words might imply & chose his wording carefully.