Do you really believe in feminism?

[Orange_Julep]

And I think many people are getting tired of this whole protecting the young female ''nature'' that can't give a straight yes or no.

Really, huh? Because so many of these situations lead to young university males being routinely found guilty in a court of law of some form of misbehavior? Like, say just about as many as the number of cases that lead to their acquittal. 50%? What am I talking about. 10%? Yup, this unequal treatment is seriously annoying.

And if we're trying to put words in my mouth without citing context, I believe I said something to the effect that I thought the penalty in this case was insanely stupid. Or maybe I was kinder and it came out as "asshole should pay!!!" I forget. I certainly didn't speak of "young stupid females" in the same sentence as "you stupid men"... Whatever the case, I clearly hate men and it's totally possible to have a rational discussion on this subject, especially when the young stupid female happens to be 15, but maybe we could start a new thread on "how do you define a 'young women'?". (Of course, legal arguments would have to be off-bounds and only male respondents could be taken seriously.)

 

[Siocnarf]

I agree with you, I would sacrifice salary for quality of life any day. But how would you feel if someone was working at the same employer as you with the same job, low stress, schedule flexibility, and short commute to their job but was making 3 times more than you, would you feel discriminated against then?

I might feel like I really didn't negotiate well enough during my hiring (or some other employee is unusually friendly with the boss). Seriously, show me a study that shows women in the same company at the same level and experience consistently earn less and then I will agree there is systemic discrimination. That's not what the numbers examine. The studies give wages for types of jobs, not for similar level employees in the same company. If for instance male ''engineers'' make 20% or 30% more than female, it doesn't change the fact that some make five figures salaries and others make six or even seven figures. When the wages within a job are so broad, it's hard to pinpoint why group A makes slightly less on average compared to group B. I might be totally wrong on my hypothesis about life choices, but it's just as plausible as any other scenario.

 

[Siocnarf]

Really, huh? Because so many of these situations lead to young university males being routinely found guilty in a court of law of some form of misbehavior? Like, say just about as many as the number of cases that lead to their acquittal. 50%? What am I talking about. 10%? Yup, this unequal treatment is seriously annoying.

...but maybe we could start a new thread on "how do you define a 'young women'?". (Of course, legal arguments would have to be off-bounds and only male respondents could be taken seriously.)

First off I was talking in general, not about the one case mentionned earlier. You can't make campus regulations or criminal laws or general assumptions based on one case. My point was that women (and everyone) need to express their desires clearly, and take responsibility when they engage in something. The ''yes means yes'' mentality is severely turning college students into perpetual children in my opinion and that's what I was talking about. Most guys accused on campus are never tried in a court of law. They just get their life prospect destroyed without any due process, also losing all the tuition money they paid. Theres's a number of those suing the universities for breach of their rights. And eventually college will lose enough money in settlement that they are going take due process more seriously.

I personnally don't think there's necessarily anything wrong with a relationship between a 15 and 18 yo. And before you make assumption, I prefer women in their 30s, but that's really not the point. Growing up is a continuum and people don't instanteneously become adult at some magical age. It's a difficult time when they want to start taking on adult responsibilities, but are still trreated like they're in kindergarden. Younger people are more vulnerable and it's a difficult topic, but arbitrary criminal laws often do more harm than good and are no substitute for good education.
https://maggiemcneill.wordpress.com/2012/01/29/moloch/

 

[Gabriella Laurence]

It's not a matter of settling for less, because what I've been trying to say is that when you are looking for a job, the salary is just one of many factors. And for many people it's not always the most critical.

Personnally, I make an modest average salary, but I could certainly earn more with a different employer. Given the level of low stress, schedule flexibility, location and short commute of my job, I am very satisfied with my salary. I don't feel discriminated because some of my former classmates make 3 times my salary working in the same field. I think women on average have more the luxury to make choices like that compared to the average men. Women now have their own financial authonomy, but many can still get men to pay some of their bills. I think overall there hasn't been a better time to be a woman in our society.

I totally agree with you and Johnny B when it comes down to choosing a job with all the perks you mention over the highest possible salary with a different company. I could also be making much more with a different employer---more or less the same position/title (I work full time outside the adult industry) but I choose not to because, believe it or not, I love my current job, the working conditions and everything that comes with it even if it's highly stressful during certain periods.

Maybe I misunderstood your post (the one below) but it seems to me that you were saying that women shouldn't be as ambitious as men and opt for better paying positions within their company, the ones that often come with more responsibilities, stress and etc. because they have the potential to compensate their current salary with "freebies" from others-- which I find to be a sexist way to look at the big picture. Hence, why I said what I said in my previous post.

I think women in the workforce are just like men. We just have a different anatomy.

If many women can get lots of freebies in exchange for their company, why would they fight to get the highest paying (and usually more stressfull) appointments in their field of work? Better to take the job that pays a little less and enjoy more of life. That's my own philosophy, but I think most men are still driven to be the ''provider'' and try to get the best paying position they can.

 

[Siocnarf]

This is a complex subject and maybe I don't always explain my thought perfectly clearly. What I mean is not that women are less ambitious and not that they shouldn't be. I was saying they dont have to be ambitious as much as men.

Not all women, but some women are perfectly happy to have their husband make the bigger salary and pay all the bills. It gives them the luxury of choosing a position that is more enjoyable rather then top-paying. Most men don't have that possibility. This will bring the average down and contribute to a lot of the difference (which is relatively small like gugu explained a while back).

It's the problem when we just argue about averages. An average doesn't really mean anything. You have to see the whole distribution of values. For instance in a field where wages vary between 50k and 500k a 10% or even 20% difference in average between 2 groups is very small. It can be due to many possibilities. One of them is simply that women fill the higher levels with a slightly smaller proportion. And also the higher levels are usually the older persons, meaning the older generation that is still mostly men. Eventually all the young women will move to the senior positions and then the difference might disappear. There's really a ton of questions to answer before we can scream systemic discrimination.

 

[orgone]

Empowerment: Part 1

Do you believe that women who are escorts - and let us limit ourselves to women, as myself, who claim some sort of validation or empowerment through escorting - are actually legit when they say they get enjoyment out of it? Do you believe that these women are generally honest or deceiving?

Well, I learned the trick for using the quotes--or at least I hope so. As I mentioned a few days ago, I really wish to share my thoughts about empowerment rather than enjoyment (though the two are related). I start with answering the question as honestly as I can: no statistics, but de-trueconessionalized personal experience. I take people seriously, so I have always believed and continue to believe a person (regardless of sex and occupation) who says s/he enjoys what s/he does, and in particular, when enjoyment is meant explicitly as a form of empowerment. I make no special exception for escorts--and why should I? In the case of escorts, I tend to believe them more than I do other people in other circumstances, for the simple reason that I feel and continue to feel empowered for having decided to seek sexual satisfaction in the escort context. So I assume that finding empowerment in sex work is at least plausible.

Was I ever deceived in trusting the women (escorts) who have shared their feelings of empowerment with me? Not any worse than when I have placed my trust in a 'civilian', be s/he male or female! To be specific, I have selected out of my memory bank 5 cases of escorts who have told me they felt empowered in their chosen profession. The course of events proved that only one lied to me--it took me a lot of time to find out. However, to this day, I am not really sure that the lie was meant to deceive me: it is possible that she was simply lying to herself as most people do from time to time, myself included. If I think of five 'civilian' friends, again regardless of sex, I am afraid that the fraction of liars exceeds 1/5! Again, IMHO we do not live in a healthy society! Relationships are no longer based on trust and honour, and the only 'morality' that is consensually recognized as valid is 'the law of the strongest'--if it is not 'I am number 1, and the world revolves around me'. By the way, while there are laws against breech of contract, there is no law against lying in private to friends, is there?

Now, if I pause to think of what happened to the remaining four women (escorts), things become a lot more interesting: 1) Two continue to feel empowered, at least for now; 2) One ceased to feel empowered and decided to quit, Thus she found empowerment in the act of leaving. It seems that she now finds empowerment in her new chosen profession. 3) The fourth one is a very special case--and I think of a great woman who is dear to us all. She continues to feel empowered in her work as an escort, but she has become a leader in the struggle for empowerment for both women and men. In a sense, she has revolutionized the concept of escorting, and has (contributed to) liberate sex work from some of the shadows and stigma that surround it. Put it another way, she has graduated from personal empowerment to collective empowerment; and I dare say (personal speculation!), that had she not made this transformation, she would have quickly lost the initial sense of empowerment.

Moral of the story? Empowerment is a subtle thing. The conditions to achieve it may evolve considerably and rapidly in the course of a person's life. Above all, true empowerment has an irresistible spiralling dynamic: it cannot remain for long as a feeling based entirely on individual experience; it tends to become a social force. This force can truly bring a positive change, however small, in the level of health of a society. In particular, it has the potential to heal the wounds inflicted or received in the war of the sexes, and perhaps, one day, put an end to it.

Program for my next free hour: Empowerment Part 2, featuring a litterary proto-feminist from ancient Greece: Lysistrata.

 

[aertonda]

I didn't read this full thread. My opinion is after so many years I am totally dissillusioned by this feminism movement. At first everything they said made sense. But later when you add facts you see just how absurd and manipluative it really is.
I call it Pheminism now. Like Phishing scam. From a man's point of view it's a guilt-instilling scam. I am a man, I always liked women, I never hurt anybody. Yet I am labeled bad, a criminal, a rapist, a loser, all of that just because I am a man.
I am presumed guilty and abusive just because, with no justice no presumption of innocence and no common sense. I am assumed to be "privileged" in this society and women are assumed "victims". Yet could somebody explain to a young boy, young man, WHAT EXACTLY am I privileged? What kind of privilege do I enjoy just by being a man?
I am sent to an army to die for some useless political causes whenever some imbecile decides it's time for a war. Oh we will "comfortably" forget that "privilege", right? Oh it's a war! Of course! Blah blah blah Bull shit!
I am bullied all the time by everybody, by men and by women. By men more openly and by women through passive aggression. No matter what I do, I can't get any kind of sustainable relationship with a woman, because in her mind there is nothing important that any man offers to her. In order for me to get laid, I have to pay. All the time. I have to pay for restaurant, for dates, or for escorts. If it wasn't for escorts, mind this: I would have never gotten laid in this lifetime.... Does it sounds privileged to you?
Nobody cares what I offer/sell. Nobody cares about my talents, they will just hire their friend, or a guy from india, just because it's cheaper. That's it.
I am expected to treat women with kids gloves, with love and respect and I am expected to NOT ASK FOR ANYTHING in return, in other words: They can do WHATEVER they want and I should feel guilty for it.
It just doesn't matter what I do, my opinions just don't matter. My desires are a joke to this society.
Total joke. You guys, you all know what I am talking about.
Whenever I complain, I get "man up". In other words: Shut up! We don't care about your issues. That comes from men. Women don't care about what I want either.

Nobody cares about men, about what we want. We are reduced to a bunch of clowns they ridicule now openly on TV in commercials. Say a Bell commercial where a woman puts a wi-fi TV to a garage and forces her men to watch it there, what are we DOGS? And it's all a joke! She goes "They are happier this way". WTF? Or this 2 and a half men sitcom, every time all they do is make fun of this Alan guy. What's so funny about that? It's all HaHa. I am surprised this Alan guy can tolerate it that much.
Or an expedia commercial where the guy on vacation is dressed into a woman's maid outfit.
I think this society must be ashamed on how it treats us. And I think women have way too much privilege in this world, way too much and they are still not happy about it.

We used to be MEN, we used to be honored for our achievements. Nobody praises men in any movie or any newscast. Nowadays - it's all about women.
And why do they support women so much? I don't get it. These women are not women anymore. They don't want relationships, they don't want kids or family. They don't want boyfriends or husbands. We are all nuisance to them that they "have to tolerate".
According to my standards these women are just like salt that is not salty anymore. Absolutely useless and worthless to me women. Yet the society cherishes them all. And young girls get so much approval that their heads spin and they realize they can do whatever they want and get away with it just because. Sounds like a privileged gender to me.

Without us realizing we have lost this war of genders and we are now prisoners of war.
The women will pay the ultimate price in this war, because while they are young it works for them, afterwards they will start getting older and realize that there are no adequate men with a normal male psychology left. Those that were are taken, others are beaten up so badly, they don't believe in any relationship anymore.

This Pheminism programmed women for eternal slavery in useless corporate world, and an unfulfilling empty life without any decent relationship or family. Just for the benefits of a few twisted women who wanted to control the world and get ahead in their ambitions. You, the young girls and women of today, are brutally manipulated and your feminine side is twisted and murdered by your own Pheminism. There is nothing Feminine in Pheminism. Even the term is manipulative and twisted. People now forget what being feminine, motherly and loving really means.

If women don't stop this Pheminism, the entire western society will gradually disappear with falling child birth rates.
Women only talk big that they can do what we can. They can't do 1/10th of what we can.
My experience showed that when faced with a real decision, they always run away. That's their solution to every problem - keep silent, passive aggressive and run away. But what if you have to make a decision and you can't run away? You see that doesn't work in life or in business.

Useless Pheminism. By the way guys, I don't need your opinions that boil down to "It's you who is wrong". I know I am not wrong and you ALL know it. But nobody wants to admit it. Because they worship women and afraid to upset them...

 

[PopeDover]

Above all, true empowerment has an irresistible spiralling dynamic: it cannot remain for long as a feeling based entirely on individual experience; it tends to become a social force. This force can truly bring a positive change, however small, in the level of health of a society. In particular, it has the potential to heal the wounds inflicted or received in the war of the sexes, and perhaps, one day, put an end to it.

Beautiful words, well said IMO. Notable that Orgone qualified "empowerment" with "true". Seems to me a major complication in healing is the existence of virulent false empowerment, only made worse via social media. It's a negative force that works in the opposite direction; it isn't derived from the individual, it's provided cheaply top down by opportunistic peddlers who could care less about true empowerment and more about their own status (for ex. the embarrassingly obvious Jessica Valenti). Things simply don't work this way, true empowerment comes from within, typically from exacting personal experiences. It's understandable that most people would opt for the easy way out of conflict, we've all done it one way or another, but in the end it gets us deeper in the hole. To me the real war of the sexes is not man against woman but both against this alluring false authority, and the small vocal minority that has benefited from the illusion will continue to do everything in its power to prolong it. Seems pretty clear how valid questions and criticisms are quickly dismissed by the various gatekeepers as hateful dialogue, provoking negative emotions and ultimately the desired stalemate. It's quite brilliant in a way, albeit a very sick way. I think it all just needs to run its course, and the resolute will eventually learn how to trust their own personal experience and natural instincts.

 

[OXO]

The concept of equality, yes. Some that claim to be feminist use it as an excuse to bash men. ( sometimes to bash other women )

 

[Simone Delisle]

Oh hi,

Sex positive feminist here Don't get me wrong, I love my job. I meet amazing people and I feel I'm part of a great really supportive community.

BUT, when I'm not working, I hate to be cat called, I hate to be told to smile, I hate that some people feel entitled to tell me what to do, or consciously try to not respect my limits.

I wanted to share this : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZmWBrN7QV6Y

I think for many young women, we are still concerned about fighting slut shaming and rape culture.

xo

 

[orgone]

Empowerment Part 2: Lysistrata

So, here I am again! If I stopped writing, it is not because I was underwhelmed by the lack of response (exception: my friend PopeDover kindly commented on my last post. Thanks, brother!), but because I was overwhelmed by life events, some, unfortunately, very sad, and some…well, it’s just life.

As I promised, I wish to continue to write about empowerment in the broader context of empowerment of women (including female escorts). Summarizing what I wrote earlier, empowerment is not in an isolated act, but rather in the dynamic process aimed at taking control of one’s life. I remarked that once we (yes, people, not only women!) become conscious of our power and act to exercise it, the very logic of empowerment requires that we act collectively rather than in isolation. If we fail to do this, the initial elation for having gained a small battle, quickly evaporates and it turns against ourselves: we become cynical, isolated, bitter; we try to find again that initial bliss by having recourse to artificial means (e.g. excesses in the use of drug, sex and rock and roll!); or we find ways to ‘get out’ of the situation (religious ‘conversions’, changing job or country, and so on). This is human! May, whoever takes the trouble to read these lines, translate what I just wrote to the specific context of escorting.

So, let’s go back to ancient Greece, in particular Athens, around 450 B.C. From modern perspective, it wasn’t a paradise for women. However, minds were much less afflicted by what Marcuse called ‘repressive tolerance’—in my words, do and think whatever you like, but don’t be loud! Aristophanes, the author of ‘Lysistrata’, was one of these free spirits who would express very unorthodox opinions through comedy. And apparently he survived to a ripe old age! Indeed eleven of his thirty something plays have survived to this day, and a few of them are represented in remains of Roman amphitheaters during European summer festivals. I wish we could have ‘Aristophanes in the parks’ here in Montreal! Perhaps merb should sponsor it! Or, even better, the wonderful Indy Companion collective!

Lysistrata is an Athenian woman, happily married to a prominent Athenian alpha male, hence a war monger! But, like most Athenian women, she is concerned for the terrible losses in human lives caused by the permanent state of war in which the major Greek cities continued to subsist. She is also aware that her ferocious husband becomes a lamb when he wants to have sex with her. And then she has this marvellous idea: ‘What if I started denying access to my body to this guy?’ She consults her many women friends, and they all agree that they actually have in their hands—or, rather, in their sexual organs! —a powerful tool to stop all that senseless bloodshed. So, Lysistrata and (female) friends organize a very successful sex strike. All those Athenian warriors turn into a miserable bunch of sex starved lazy bums (interestingly enough, they do not turn to rape! I guess they were more civilized than modern men, after all.).

However, this first victory of our Athenian Women Collective for Peace (AWCP) is not a solution. All the other cities keep fighting and threaten to invade and destroy Athens! So, Lysistrata an her friends decide to extend their Collective to all Greek cities! They succeed very quickly to convince all Greek women, secretly just as tired as the AWCP of the senseless bloodshed, that a sex strike can stop all wars for good. The rest is (unfortunately) not history. But it is at least drama literature history!

So, here we have a wonderful, if only literary, example of the dynamic of empowerment: it is a spiral that cannot be stopped. If Lysistrata had only exercised her power on her husband, he will have become, perhaps, a sex starved lazy bum, but things would have stopped there, and Lysistrata and her husband would have turned into just another dysfunctional couple, ostracised (ostracism is an Athenian invention) by the rest of society: they would have ended their wretched lives in a haze of the antique version of ouzo! But collective action made the difference. Had the women stopped there, had they shared the view of their men that the enemy has to be destroyed rather than involved in an alliance, then the whole Athenian civilization would have been destroyed, and the hegemony would have passed to another group of blood thirsty, stupid alpha males.

Since I have already taken some liberties with Lysistrata’s story line, I will persist and imagine that after having won the war against war, the GWCP (replace Athenian with Greek in the acronym!) also convinced Greek men to found the GMAP (good merbites can effortlessly imagine the meaning of this new acronym). Then the GWCP and the GMCP became best allies, and stopped the war of the sexes forever…. Or at least for a very long time, during which men and women had great, uninhibited, joyful and loving SEX! Yet another example of the unstoppable dynamic of empowerment!

Well, all this is literature! But just today I read the ad of a new lady advertiser who says that she believes that the world can be made better. More power to her! More power to the wonderful bunch of Indy Companion! More power to feminist who, without compromising on true feminist values and priorities, refuse to turn into men haters, but become men’s best allies! And, above all, let’s make Peace and not war!



Orgone