Hamas & Israel

[minutemenX]

This is an endless discussion that do not convince people firmly adhering to one side. Blaming, does not solve the problem, just justifies your already established opinion. Some realistic solution needs to be found ASAP to end the cycle of violence.

What we have in Gaza.

We have 2M+ people in practically densest population in the world. What is the economy of Gaza? They produce practically nothing with exception of small amount of agricultural produce. They do not have any sizable industry, any intellectual base for HiTec or bunking. They import practically everything: water, gas , electricity (all from Israel), food and all industrial goods from all over the world. How society that produces nothing survives? It is basically a welfare state that survives on donations from UN, industrial countries and a lot of cash from rich Arab states especially from Gulf such as Qatar and Iran (probably again through Qatar). A lot of this aid comes with a caveat. The caveat is that the recipients need to demonstrate “straggle” with Israeli “occupation”. Hamas is the clearing house practically for all aid and ensures that the “struggle” is going on. It feeds its bureaucrats, paramilitary force, and people that are employed in "military industries” (shops manufacturing rockets, tunnel builders etc). There is no way to survive in Gaza if you are not with Hamas, both ideologically and participating in the terrorist activity directly or indirectly. With endless brainwashing that glorifies martyrdom practically the whole Gaza is a terrorist enterprise. Destroying Hamas would solve little as any other administration recruited from locals will be immediately corrupted by “free” money coming with anti-Israeli caveat and the inherited ideology and would probably recreate Hamas-like structure.

What to do (utopia).

In short: stop flow of free money. This includes any support for the so- called Palestinian refugees. It is the only group of people on Earth that inherits refugee status primarily now from grandparents never actually been to the territory they are claiming refugee from. If we apply this rule to American and Canadians, they would be instantly transformed to Germans, Italian, French, Hungarians etc. with rights to their “ancestral” places and the compensation from them. The international support needs to go instead exclusively for the industry and agriculture development by foreign entrepreneurs and companies supplementing it with their own investments. The factories built by Israelis on the Gaza border can be also rejuvenated. This of course needs time to develop. As an interim solution, the program sponsoring unmarried men and women from Gaza to work and study abroad should be initiated. Considering no language barrier, hundreds of thousands can find an immediate employment in Gulf States and Saudi Arabia replacing Indians and Thais (these can go to Israel). They should pay taxes to Gaza to support elderly and youth. This program will remove the most vulnerable population strata from the toxic ideology also helping them to accumulate money for study and marriage. In parallel, sponsored education abroad primarily in trade schools will prepare work force for growing domestic industry. The bottom line is: no more “free money” . The money is only paid for productive work in industry, agriculture and service supervised first by foreign campanies directly to a worker without any clearing house as in any civilized country.

 

[Halloween Mike]

Why pick sides? They both seem horrible. Here's my plan to fix things. It's a wee bit drastic, but hear me out. Give everyone in the area a month to clear out. Housing and transportation will be provided to those that need it. Once everyone's gone, drop so many nukes that the area will be inhabitable for centuries.

No more "holy land" means they no longer have that reason to fight. Will they still fight? Maybe, but at least they'll have to be honest about their motivations. Religion is fine when when you keep it to yourself and those interested. When it leads to mass-death, it's a disease that needs to be treated.

So you want to destroy the only Jewish country in the world? Where you relocate these peoples? In Arab countries? So they get purged again? I hope this was just satire. The truth is the Israelis have a reason to fight for their COUNTRY, the "Palestinians" are simply Arab Muslim that could live in Jordan, Egypt, Syria, Lebannon or any other Arab country in the region. They are not even a "country". "Palestine" was never a country. Before the reformation of Israel, it was just a piece of land that was swing around from one country to the other. Last 2 being Ottomans and Brits.

Its true that Israel is not squeaky clean. Facts. But between each side, its easier to see wich one is the worst.

 

[Halloween Mike]

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I'm frankly amazed that there are still people who are so hateful, racist and cruel that they can still in July 2025 feel no shame in openly professing their full support for the most heinous, cruel and sadistic crimes against overwhelmingly civilians, mostly against children. There are no words strong enough to describe it.

I don't know if it's willful ignorance, or if people are fully aware and support it, it doesn't matter because they're just as culpable either way.

I have to admit that I've still been quite surprised at how far people have been willing to degrade their humanity by defending the most vile crimes. I would not have ever guessed that so many people literally had no red line that, if crossed, would be going too far. But here we are, and I've had to acknowledge that there are people who will literally defend anything Israel could do to Palestinians. It's both disturbing and eye opening.

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And personally i am amaze you defend a terrorist group, and as minutemenx perfectly explain it, a region that is infuse of perpetual hatred, and you don't even remotely condemn anything about them. I couldn't had said better than he did when it comes to explaining Gaza radicalization.

Its so easy to usue the racist card when in fact it has to do with extremism in religion before any concept of "race". Heck North Korea and South Korea are both Koreans, yet we condemn only one of the 2, why do you think? One is an extremist country under dictatorship that wish death upon us, the other is our allies. So please stop with this race card, its just an excuse.


As i said Israel is not "squeaky clean" and there is a lot of things i question. One for a fact is the death at the humanitarian aid distribution. But to think a war could go on without any civilian deaths, especially when the ennemies are purposely embled in civilian population because THEY COUNT on these deaths to fuel their propaganda machine, that would be impossible.

Why i don't see you condemn the massacre and killing of Gazans by their own peoples? Why i don't see you condemn the massacre of Druz in Syria? Why you don't actively militate against actual genocide happening right now in the world? Why its already "Israel bad"?

My humanity is fully there. Heck yesterday i was in my bed in the dark half asleep and heard a buzzing in my ear, my reflex was to of course get there with my hand and in the process once i opened the light i realized i squeashed a little butterfly. I felt so bad. They are harmless. I didn't wanted to kill it. It was purely a reflex. Worst is that it was still moving a little bit but clearly it was too squished, so i had to "finish it" to end its suffering. That hurt me. Truly ! My humanity was also very hurt on Oct 7 when i saw all these defenseless peoples brutally murdered. And i saw only the tip... The reports of what some of them endured trough torture is bone chilling.

I never hidden the fact i always was against islamist, and for years our countries have bleed because of these religions extremists, it just happen Oct 7 was the drip that made the glass overflow. As horrible as the other massacre were (Paris, London, Russia, Boston etc) it was always a matter of killing peoples. And yes thats horrible itself, but between dying from a gunshot and dying after rape and torture, i think one is worst than the other.

You're indignation at peoples like me is only reciprocrated at my indignation of peoples like you who can't even condemn terrorist acts of the most brutal barbaric ways.

The reality is in Canada and the USA, and Europe, peoples evolved for the better. We became civilized and condemn as a society the barbaric ways that our ancestors used. (Look up the execution of William Wallace if you want to see barbary) But not every country, every nation, evolved the same. South America has a huge problem with Cartels and corruption, and the Arab world has a huge problem with radical Islam. Its not everyone of course, but its big enough that it overflow the other side.

Afghanistan is probably the best exemple of the radical islam issue in the middle east. We spent 20 years trying to make that country "normal", better, and in 48h once we thrown the towel it fallen back into Islamist hands that were just waiting for the power force that was there to leave. The good Afghans got overrun by the bad Afghans in less than 48h... Thats not normal. You would not see our army or police be overflown in Canada by drug dealers and street gangs that want to take control... But there, its a systemic issue.

 

[Zero_Six]

So you want to destroy the only Jewish country in the world? Where you relocate these peoples? In Arab countries? So they get purged again? I hope this was just satire. The truth is the Israelis have a reason to fight for their COUNTRY, the "Palestinians" are simply Arab Muslim that could live in Jordan, Egypt, Syria, Lebannon or any other Arab country in the region. They are not even a "country". "Palestine" was never a country. Before the reformation of Israel, it was just a piece of land that was swing around from one country to the other. Last 2 being Ottomans and Brits.

Its true that Israel is not squeaky clean. Facts. But between each side, its easier to see wich one is the worst.

When children can't learn to share their toy, you take the toy away. The toy in this situation is the "holy land", but instead of a couple kids pulling each others hair or giving each other a fat lip, they're (both sides) killing people. Lots of people.

I wont claim to have studied the conflict in great depth but it doesn't seem like there's that big difference between the two. The Jewish people needed a place, but not any place. It had to be that chunk of land, even though there were people already there and it was surrounded by people that hate them. With international support, they kept taking more and more land until the people living there got fed up and fought back.

It would be like if my landlord told me I'd have to start sharing my apartment with some guy that claims he lived here 50 years ago. At first we just share the place, but he starts taking over more and more of the place and saying it's his birth right. Eventually, I need to start asking permission to get a glass of water from the sink and sometimes the answer is no. I complain to the landlord and TAL, but they do nothing.

We have plenty of land in Canada. They're both welcome to come here so long as they can behave themselves.

 

[Halloween Mike]

When children can't learn to share their toy, you take the toy away. The toy in this situation is the "holy land", but instead of a couple kids pulling each others hair or giving each other a fat lip, they're (both sides) killing people. Lots of people.

The Jewish people needed a place, but not any place. It had to be that chunk of land, even though there were people already there and it was surrounded by people that hate them. With international support, they kept taking more and more land until the people living there got fed up and fought back.


We have plenty of land in Canada. They're both welcome to come here so long as they can behave themselves.

First of all you don't nuke anything for "fun" as its terrible for the environement and nukes should be dissuasive only and never actually used. Secondly maybe you should study a little more on the subject if you are to bring "solutions" to it. You know for instance that the reasons Jews were brough back to their ancestral home is because of the holocaust? It was to make sure they would have their own country again so this could not happen again. Zionism is simply the right for their return of the Jewish peoples to their ancestral home and be self suficient.

They didn't simply "took more and more until the peoples there got fed up". There was a partition by the British Empire (who actually owned the land at the time) wich Israel accepted, while Arab nations didn't and attacked them. As a result of that war wich Israel won, they took more territories. Now if we are talking today MY solution personally would be to give half the westbank to Jordan (the part where its controled by the PLO), and make the other part Israel. Once done, the frontier would be defined and unviolable for the futur, as in Israel can't take more. I would do similar with Gaza and let Egypt have it almost entirely exept a "buffer zone", like the demilitarized zone between the Koreas, just to ensure no attack can come from there ever again. But the issue is even Egypt do not want the "palestinian problem". Even fellow arab muslim do not want them... that tell a lot.

We have plenty of land in Canada yes, but there is a reason why most peoples live in the South. Would like to live in the North West territories or Yukon? Now i guess with a lot of developement over decades it could become "better" but it would still be a hard climate nontheless. Same way why Sibera is not populated as Moscow...

 

[Zero_Six]

First of all you don't nuke anything for "fun" as its terrible for the environement and nukes should be dissuasive only and never actually used. Secondly maybe you should study a little more on the subject if you are to bring "solutions" to it. You know for instance that the reasons Jews were brough back to their ancestral home is because of the holocaust? It was to make sure they would have their own country again so this could not happen again. Zionism is simply the right for their return of the Jewish peoples to their ancestral home and be self suficient.

They didn't simply "took more and more until the peoples there got fed up". There was a partition by the British Empire (who actually owned the land at the time) wich Israel accepted, while Arab nations didn't and attacked them. As a result of that war wich Israel won, they took more territories. Now if we are talking today MY solution personally would be to give half the westbank to Jordan (the part where its controled by the PLO), and make the other part Israel. Once done, the frontier would be defined and unviolable for the futur, as in Israel can't take more. I would do similar with Gaza and let Egypt have it almost entirely exept a "buffer zone", like the demilitarized zone between the Koreas, just to ensure no attack can come from there ever again. But the issue is even Egypt do not want the "palestinian problem". Even fellow arab muslim do not want them... that tell a lot.

We have plenty of land in Canada yes, but there is a reason why most peoples live in the South. Would like to live in the North West territories or Yukon? Now i guess with a lot of developement over decades it could become "better" but it would still be a hard climate nontheless. Same way why Sibera is not populated as Moscow...

I'm well aware of the Holocaust and it leading to the formation (reclaiming?) of Israel. I fully agree that they need their own country. I don't agree that it had to be that piece of land.

If we're using the logic that it was their ancestral home and they deserved to have it back, then perhaps we should pack up and give Canada back to the Indigenous people. Same for America, Australia and countless other places. The Indigenous people have more of a case IMO considering that the Jewish people lost Israel close to 2000 years ago. My ancestors were mostly Welsh. Do I get a chunk of land in Wales because some English people stole my ancestor's land back in the 12th century?

Nuking the place isn't really an option, but I don't think other solutions will work either. These people are too religious and the grudge too deep. Checkpoints and borders might slow down the destruction and killing, but it wont stop it. I guess we'll just let Israel go ahead and build.. what are they calling it? A "relocation camp"? The way you're talking about the Palestinian's probably isn't much different than how some people were talking about the Jewish people back in the 40s.