Honesty

[naughtylady]

This was posted on another internet group that I belong to.

=====youandme999 wrote=====
I'm a big fan of open relationships, but elas am not in one myself. I'm
curious about your lifestyle and how you feel about engaging with
someone who has discretionary requirements?
===== the persons reply:
Interesting that you use the word discretionary, which means exercised
at one's individual choice or judgment, when you really mean discreet
which means having or showing good judgment as well as
unobtrusive/unnoticeable. Because as far as I'm concerned cheating shows
remarkable bad judgment and takes away the choices from one's partner.
And getting involved with someone who's cheating also shows bad judgment
whether you're monogamous or poly. If you are monogamous, supposedly you
value sexual fidelity, but you are being cheated on every time that
person is with his wife. Even if they leave their partner eventually,
odds are they'll cheat on you too. If you are poly, then you are
choosing to get involved with someone who has proven that they can't do
honesty in a relationship and poly can't work without honesty. It's a
losing proposition all around.


This Is how I responded:

Speaking as a sex worker, I speak with many men who cheat. I agree with
you that cheating shows a lack of respect for the relationship, a lack
of trust (in the sense that they assume that she will not understand)
selfishness, a lack of self control, and sometimes arrogance and
manipulation.

I do not agree that it automatically signals a lack of love and respect
for the partner. I have met men who love a partner who only understands
monogamy and does not fill their needs. For example: A couple who
married young, both virgins; she kept her strict Roman Catholic values
and he needs more sex than only for procreation. Generally in a case
like the example I just gave, he feels guilty for having sexual needs
and for cheating but he does love her and all other parts of the
relationship are good. (As we all know a relationship is so much more
than sex.)

While most of my clients are single (surprise!) those who are attached
generally are afraid of talking about their sexual needs with their
partner. They are afraid of rejection and ridicule if they tell their
partner their fantasies. They are afraid of being labelled kinky or
perverted. Those needs and fantasies may be quite tame by our standards
(oral sex or doggy-style) but if it never happened in the relationship,
expressing that desire can be scary. Many people are simply not brave
enough to express their needs, desires, and fantasies to their partner.
Others think that what they want is too kinky or perverted to suggest to
someone they love and respect. Sort of an "I am a pervert married to
this wonderful woman and if she finds out she will leave me," type of
thinking.

Personally honesty in my relationships is of the utmost importance. I
give and expect honesty in all my relationships. I have been betrayed,
some of you here were there for me for that. And I know the pain that
comes with it...

Ronnie,
Naughtylady

 

[naughtylady]

Hmmm, I am surprised that nobody has anything to add...

Ronnie,
Naughtylady

 

[General Gonad]

Be honest with yourself first

My own feeling is that the ready availability of recreational sex has helped me let off steam and and, to date, helped preserve the marriage. I've never had an "affair" and never would take on the kind of emotional risk that an affair carries with it.

I'll also add that, unlike my friend General Gonad, I engage in recreational sex utterly without guilt or self recrimination. As far as I'm concerned, it's simply good clean fun. It's not my problem that we live in a society with sexual mores set by religious organizations for which I bear nothing but contempt.

I will start where Regnad left off. I too agree with btyger that even though seeing an SP is nowhere near as bad as having an affair, it is cheating and dishonest. Murder is murder, theft is theft, cheating is cheating. Let's call a spade a spade and dispense with our natural tendency to try and rationalize our actions.

Now in calling a spade a spade, I believe that open relationships full of honesty are also extremeley rare and very unsolid. How can a guy honestly say I am fine dating an SP who sleeps with several men a day or in a week? This is pure horseshit and I question the strength of any relationship - even more than mine - that involves this type of arrangement. The truth is that these people are afraid of being alone so they concoct the ludicrous concept of an "open" relationship which is doomed to fail.

I agree with Regnad that the availability of "recreational" sex is a factor but why am I not a drug addict or alcoholic? To say something is readily available doesn't excuse your actions. I do not like the word "recreational" since it trivializes what you're doing, making you believe it's benign. I know I am cheating. Yes, I have guilt but I will not lie - seeing some SPs has helped me in many ways that I couldn't imagine - and it wasn't about the sex. In my opinion, the minute you stop feeling guilty is the minute you should end your primary relationship.

I love my wife and I am fully aware that my actions are not helping my relationship. We may not be right for each other but I cannot honestly tell anyone on this board that cheating, even if it's with an SP, will not be detrimental to your relationship. When you love someone, you need to be devoted to that person. You cannot spend hours on Merb writing posts about "amazing ladies." You cannot be emailing SPs to arrange secret rendez-vous knowing full well that if your wife found out, she would be devastated. I cannot think of anything that would hurt me more than hurting her - the woman who has stood by my side through some of my most challenging moments. Actions ALWAYS speak louder than words.

Ronnie, being honest for me begins with being honest with myself first. I do not think it has to do with asking my wife for "kinky sex." I couldn't give a damn for sex since I make love to my wife. Most of the SPs I have been with understand why married men cheat but some of them have told me that they hope their husbands never cheat on them. They are right and I am wrong. But in life sometimes you need to journey into unkown territory and live with the consequences of your action. If you know that this "hobby" has the potential to destroy your primary relationship - and it does - then you need to step back and reevaluate what you value in life.

Again, you need to be honest with yourself first. If you stop feeling guilty, you have to question yourself as to why you are bothering with your primary relationship. If you're miserable in your primary relationship, then have the courage to move on because at the end of the day, we will all die - none of us will cheat death. What good are you to your kids, to your wife or to yourself if you're miserable?

Finally, do you want me to honestly tell you what I am thinking when I am with a special young lady? I am thinking to myself, I hope you never marry a guy like me - you deserve so much better.

GG

 

[General Gonad]

General,

If I shared, even to the slightest degree, your guilt about what I'm doing, I certainly would have stopped long before I started.

Regnad,

I know I will eventually stop - I have no doubts about that. Why did I start? Probably because I was stupid and selfish. But there is something that troubles me in your reasoning when you state "...I engage in recreational sex utterly without guilt or self recrimination." If, as you believe that SPs are humans with emotions, then how can you be so robotic in your attitude towards this activity? Somewhere deep inside, I believe you do feel guilt but are unable to admit it to yourself. You may be miserable in your primary relationship but then you have only yourself to blame for that just like I have only myself to blame for the way I feel.

GG

 

[General Gonad]

Why don't you stop now?

I can ask you, why don't you divorce now? You've got your reasons, I've got mine but trust me, I know I can leave and will when I am ready to do so.

And just how am I robotic in my attitude? I believe that sex is not only for procreation but is good clean fun. When I'm with a working girl, I do my very, very best to try to make sure that the experience is as much fun for her as it can be. And I think I'm successful far more often than not.

You're lying to yourself pretending it's all "good, clean fun". This is a fairytale and you know it. There is nothing benign about "hobbying," regardless of whether or not you're married. To believe so is to lie to yourself.

GG

 

[HonestAbe]

Whats worse?

For those of you with a "dillema" over cheating, suffering through guilt about "lying" or "dishonesty", I ask you whats worse, your cheating, or your wife deceiving you when you first met about her sexual nature? I'm not making a generalization about all women, just wondering why a man would bother feeling bad about "cheating" on a woman who lured him into a marriage by pretending to be an openminded sex kitten with a naughty streak in her only to turn icy cold once she had kids and no longer had a need for sex. This is a common scenario and men should not be made to feel guilty for having a penis that works and wanting to use it.

Since the focus is on honesty, isn't the woman in this scenario responsible for the relationship being somewhat based on a lie to begin with? Isn't she the one who is "cheating" the man out of what he needs to be happy sexually? Two wrongs certainly don't make a right but what is the remedy here? Regs' approach is sane and protects what is really important, the kids, while keeping himself from being miserable sexually, which is important for men since being in a miserable sexual state can affect our demeanor in general therefore making you less pleasant to be around. Ever see a man walking with his wife and kids with a miserable drawn out expression on his face? I bet you more often than not, he's not getting any. Life presents us with a big shit sandwich from time to time, unfortunately we sometimes have to take a bite. Guilt? Get over it.

 

[naughtylady]

I believe that open relationships full of honesty are also extremeley rare and very unsolid. How can a guy honestly say I am fine dating an SP who sleeps with several men a day or in a week? This is pure horseshit and I question the strength of any relationship - even more than mine - that involves this type of arrangement. The truth is that these people are afraid of being alone so they concoct the ludicrous concept of an "open" relationship which is doomed to fail.

Unless you have ever had an open relationship of some sort, I do not see how you can make these comments. Open relationships are not for everyone, and yes it is possible to "cheat" even if you are in one.

I have been in one for 4 years (notice I have only been escorting for less than 3 years). Obviously I have sex with other men (more often than he has sex with other women). Do I love him? Yes. Does he love me? I have absolutely no doubt.

When I go to work, do I have deep loving feelings for my clients? No, though I do like and care about some of my regulars. Some I would even call my friend (As in someone who I like to hang out with and chill with and talk to on the phone).

He has had some one night stands, a couple of regular flings, and has seen a couple of escorts (nothing wrong with a desire for some variety). Somehow ever time this happens we get closer. It is as if my understanding that he occaisionally wants variety makes him love and desire me more.

If, as you believe that SPs are humans with emotions, then how can you be so robotic in your attitude towards this activity?

Why do you think his attitude is robotic? Because he does not invest emotionally? I don't invest emotionally with my clients (usually, but it has happened), but that doesn't meat I am being robotic. I am out to give and have a good time when I go on a date, wether it is for an hour or a weekend.

There is nothing benign about "hobbying," regardless of whether or not you're married.

Please elaborate, I have some comments but I want to understand exactly what you meant first.

Ronnie,
Naughtylady

 

[naughtylady]

That question was directed at GG who made that quote.

So it seems that we both don't know how to fully turn off our emotions

Ronnie,
Naughtylady

 

[General Gonad]

Unless you have ever had an open relationship of some sort, I do not see how you can make these comments. Open relationships are not for everyone, and yes it is possible to "cheat" even if you are in one.

Ronnie,

I do not believe in "open" relationships - either you're committed or you're not. It's very simple to understand and this is why the great majority of people are not engaging in "open" relationships. This does not mean it cannot work but I have serious doubts.

He has had some one night stands, a couple of regular flings, and has seen a couple of escorts (nothing wrong with a desire for some variety). Somehow ever time this happens we get closer. It is as if my understanding that he occaisionally wants variety makes him love and desire me more.

Forgive me if I scoff at the idea that two people who purportedly love each other so much are getting closer because they allow each other to sleep with others. Again, could it be that you fear losing him because he's way younger than you? Maybe you're lying to yourself, trying to rationalize this "open" relationship.

Why do you think his attitude is robotic? Because he does not invest emotionally? I don't invest emotionally with my clients (usually, but it has happened), but that doesn't meat I am being robotic. I am out to give and have a good time when I go on a date, wether it is for an hour or a weekend.

"Robotic" is a man without a conscience, a man who feels no guilt whatsoever. I find it curious that Regnad can get emotional with ladies he's paying to be with but he doesn't feel a shred of guilt for cheating on his wife. I know he's a nice guy so I can only speculate that he has no guilt because he wishes his marriage was over.

Finally, regardless of whether you're single or married, "hobbying" may not be as benign as we all like to think. Not for the clients and not for the SPs. Check out my thread on how hobbying warps your views.

GG

 

[EagerBeaver]

Am I missing something here? Aren't both of you guys cheating on your wives? So what gives? I don't see that one pot can call the kettle black, but the other can't. Infidelity is a 2 lane highway.

 

[chef]

Frames of Reference

I like to think in terms of frames of reference: if you change your frame of reference so that sleeping with other women is permitted, there is nothing to feel guilty about. While most of us cannot do it (including me), some can.

The bottom line is that it is a question of personal morals. As much as I'd like to say Regnad is deluding himself, I cannot as that would be judging him based upon my own personal morals. The key question is how his wife would view this. If she has no problem with it we should all bugger off and mind our own damn businesses; however if she does have a problem with it that raises the interesting question of whether two different frames of reference can co-exist within the same marriage.

 

[EagerBeaver]

If the marriage has deteriorated to the point of irreconciliability, then it may be hard to feel guilty under those circumstances.

 

[General Gonad]

Those who don't have kids and those who haven't seen first hand what havoc divorce wreaks upon them cannot, perhaps, understand the sacrifice that I am making for them, that we are both making for them. Also understand that this is not a marriage of open conflict in front of the kids, but one of inertia and stagnation. Were it the former, it would, then, certainly be best for them for us to end it.

Regnad,

My parents divorced in my teens. It was tough on the kids but it would have been tougher to watch them lie to each other, pretending they're happy. Inertia and stagnation is worse than open conflict because it represses obvious feelings of anger and contempt.

There is no easy divorce. Divorce is living a death. But if you're not honest with yourself, you're doing more harm to yourself and this can be even more detrimental to your kids in the long run. Trust me, I know.

Ask yourself if you're hobbying solely for selfish reasons or is it also a way to vent off frustrations with your wife that you've been harboring for a while. I did ask myself this question and I found that I was angry at my wife. I am not "wallowing" in guilt but I am being brutally honest with myself. This isn't paralyzing guilt but it's there and I would be miserable if it wasn't. At the very least, I know I still have deep feelings for my wife. Whether or not we will remain together remains to be seen but I know that I love her. And that is no fantasy - that is reality.

GG

 

[godddess_harmonia]

Again, you need to be honest with yourself first. If you stop feeling guilty, you have to question yourself as to why you are bothering with your primary relationship. If you're miserable in your primary relationship, then have the courage to move on because at the end of the day, we will all die - none of us will cheat death. What good are you to your kids, to your wife or to yourself if you're miserable?

Wow. Those are some strong, yet very valid, statements there, GG. I agree with a lot of what you're saying, and the bottom line seems to be that life is just too short to be "stuck" in a situation that is not helping you maintain a good quality of life.

I tell a lot of my friends the same thing: just because a person is not meant to be with you in a relationship doesn't make them a bad person, ie you can care a lot about a person, but that doesn't necessarily mean that you are compatible with each other when it comes to being in a relationship.

The thing is some things are easier said than done. I pride myself on being sincere in all aspects of my life, and I am proud to be able to say that I have been there for many people who felt like they had nobody else to turn to. And although that is somewhat of a sad situation to be in as a client, it's reality. Many people get married for the wrong reasons, and they end up being in a relationship where they don't feel they can share everything with their "better half". Since discovering escorting personally, I see that there's more to this than just sex. In many cases, there's a bond that is created between the SP and the client that is admirable and possibly stronger than any other friend-type bond that either of them have ever experienced before.

I agree with calling a spade a spade, but there's also all the shades of grey that exist between black and white. Yes, spending time on these review boards and planning rendez-vous with special ladies is cheating... but it could also be seen as completing the part of your life that is missing in your marriage/relationship. It seems like a catch 22, because "to have and to hold, from this day forward, for better or for worse, for richer or for poorer, in sickness and in health for as long as we both shall live" sounds great on the wedding day, but those vows are not meant to be valid just for one day. And if you are living a miserable life, not being able to share yourself unconditionally and completely with the "chosen one", and you are seeking to fulfill needs and desires elsewhere, then you need to take a closer look at your situation and decide how you're going to continue living your life, as tough a decision as that may be.

A friend of mine passed away a couple of weeks of ago in a fire. Completely unexpected situation. Nobody can turn back the hands of time and give her the opportunity to do all the things she wanted to do to make her life happier. We owe it to ourselves to live our own lives to the fullest and make sure we do our best to live our lives in the happiest way possible. We never know when it is our own time to go.

 

[naughtylady]

Forgive me if I scoff at the idea that two people who purportedly love each other so much are getting closer because they allow each other to sleep with others. Again, could it be that you fear losing him because he's way younger than you? Maybe you're lying to yourself, trying to rationalize this "open" relationship.

Strangely enough I suspect he is more afraid of losing me than I him. Sex and love are two differeny things. Could your doubting the strength of our relationship be more a case of projecting your feelings about your relationship with your wife on my relationship with Vince?

I am not afraid of losing him. I have survived much worse than the loss of a love. If he left me it would hurt, (a lot) and I would cry, but I would also get over it and move on because I do not want anyone who does not want me. As painful as that may be I rather be single than with someone who doesn't want me.

Sex if fun. Variety is fun. Sex with love can be amazing. So can sex without love, but in a different way.

A client might touch me in the exact same way Vince does; however because of my feelings for Vince it feels completely different and evokes a whole different set of feelings.

In some ways Vince is afraid of "settling down". I think this fear is what makes our relationship special. He has his flings. I accept his flings. That acceptance makes him realise just how special I am, as he knows that most women would not accept this behaviour. (If he was sneaking behind my back, and lying to me I would be much less accepting!) This in turn makes him that more demonstrative of his feelings towards me. I doubt that it is because I am a better lover.

Yes, working in the sex industry has changed my views. I have seen both beauty and ugliness. I don't think I need to describe the ugliness.

I know that good can come out of SPing. I met one gentleman; a man who was divorced and who had had a stroke and was paralyzed on half of his body and from the waist down. After our date he told me that since his stroke I was the first person to make him fee like a man and not a medical condition. I know that as an SP I can make a very positive difference in some peoples lives.


Ronnie,
Naughtylady

 

[General Gonad]

Is nothing sacred?

Could your doubting the strength of our relationship be more a case of projecting your feelings about your relationship with your wife on my relationship with Vince?

Ronnie,

My relationship has endured much graver problems than anything you can imagine. I have my doubts about whether or not things will work out, but this is not a case of "projecting" onto you or anyone else what I feel is common sense. For me, if I fell in love with an SP and she really loved me, I would demand that she stop SPing immediately. No two ways about it. I am not here to share my wife or anyone else that I could potentially fall in love with in the future with hundreds of men.

I am going to be blunt: perhaps Vince doesn't care about you as much as you think and vice versa. If he really loved you the way a devoted partner should love you, he would feel jealousy and be extremely uncomfortable with the notion that other men are sticking their penis in you.

I know I am not the paradigm model husband to speak on love. But there is nothing you can say to convince me that "open" relationships are normal, loving, healthy relationships. They are a recipe for disaster and doomed for failure. Be honest with yourselves and admit it. I hope I am wrong in your case but I doubt it.

GG

P.S. I do not, however, doubt that SPs can make a positive difference. I have met many that helped me in many ways. I believe the satisfaction you derived from meeting that special client is genuine as was his appreciation for making him feel like a man again.

 

[General Gonad]

Everybody thinks that their problems are bigger than everyone else's.

No, there are many people out there that are far worse off than me. I think about them all the time. But what I am saying is that your accusations are simplistic given that you really do not know my personal hell. It is easy for you to point the finger at me and accuse me of not loving my wife. Too easy.

GG

 

[General Gonad]

Catch 22

It seems like a catch 22, because "to have and to hold, from this day forward, for better or for worse, for richer or for poorer, in sickness and in health for as long as we both shall live" sounds great on the wedding day, but those vows are not meant to be valid just for one day. And if you are living a miserable life, not being able to share yourself unconditionally and completely with the "chosen one", and you are seeking to fulfill needs and desires elsewhere, then you need to take a closer look at your situation and decide how you're going to continue living your life, as tough a decision as that may be.

goddess_harmonia,

Thanks for your post, I agree with everything you wrote. However, it isn't always easy to share your deepest fears with your loved one. Often, you can't bear watching them worry about you. You put on a brave face in order to protect them from the ugly hell you're going through.

GG

 

[chef]

............. my son no longer has both of us. For him alone, I may reconcile with her, even if I know we're doomed to fail in the long run. ....................

Think this through very carefully. It is generally not recommended that you stay together for the kids if you can't get on - more damaging to the kids. BUT, what do I know ? - I don't have any kids.

 

[godddess_harmonia]

Easier said than done

goddess_harmonia,

Thanks for your post, I agree with everything you wrote. However, it isn't always easy to share your deepest fears with your loved one. Often, you can't bear watching them worry about you. You put on a brave face in order to protect them from the ugly hell you're going through.

GG

GG, I understand that it's not easy, but is it fair to just share PART of your life with the one you love? Is it alright to give only 72% of yourself in the relationship, when, at least in my eyes, each person involved in the relationship should be giving nothing more or nothing less than 100%?

I know there are some people out there who would prefer not knowing about the "bad" things going on in other people's lives, and who would prefer living in denial. That's up to them, even though I don't think that's healthy.

Let me quote the wise old TV show G.I. Joe (lol): "now you know, and knowing's half the battle."

Harmony