Considering the fact that I have had some good friends who were dancers that died from drug overdoses, it's hard for me to find the humor in it. Yes, drug use exists in the sc business, not as much as it once did though. Using drugs to attract strippers doesn't help matters any. A dancer I cared very much for ended up on the streets trying to survive because of cocaine. Fortunately she was able to pull out of it and put her life back together. Others I knew weren't so lucky, they died. Some things hit a little too close to home for me to see them as a joke.
How to FUCK a STRIPPER & Still Have Money Left In Your Pocket
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Indeed, just about everything Vice 'says' has a tinge of humour, but also a lot of seriousness... have you read any of their recent issues? like the Iraq issue? Vice Guide to Travel? Dead serious stuff. (Of course along side all this are the DOs and DON'Ts). The guides I posted on the boards that are also related to sex are informative and humourous too... I think they take pride in being entertaining and informative and all this for free, but once in a while there are misses. This would be one of them!Ben Dover said:
Sorry for not being more convincing/rational. Just that I've been following these guys for a few years now and all I can say is that I have a 'feel' for what they're trying to do...
Korbel said:
Hi Korbel,
I don't disagree with any of the above. There are definitely limits. I guess I'd just rather have the ability to decide for myself what is too disgusting, rather than have it dictated by government censors and bureaucrats -- or by a couple random posters
Outside of inciting hate or violence, which 99.999% of us can agree is of no value to society -- outside of that we should not be censored. period. Chef said:
Chef,
I am truly sorry for insulting you. You are right and those comments were probably out of line. However, next time you object to a thread as a whole, another way of expressing that would be by not participating in it. If you prefer, I could be sure to respectfully let you know every single time I opine that one of your remarks is bordering on objectionable or asinine... I generally prefer to ignore things like that. Again, sorry for the head-up-the-ass comment...
Techman said:
Techman, I hear ya. We all have our touchy areas, or sore spots. It's a personal thing. I just want to be clear... in no way am I trying to defend the article, or what it's mal-intended humor proposes... just my right to read it.
BD
I think that the other issue too is with substances that are potentially dangerous because they are not regulated. Before someody here thinks that it might be a cool idea to go out and stockpile a supply of extasy to try and entice strippers, think about the possibility that you may have some poor girl who has a very bad fatal reaction. This is much like the incident last year or so with that teen girl from Hudson who died as a result of taken extasy. I'm sure nobody here would want something like that on their hands.
Character
It's too bad that given time to think he choses to persist in his insulting manner. The first time might be excusable as momentary anger and frustration. Persisting in such worthless exchanges is not. I thank Ben Dover for his respectful response to me, but I deplore his failure to be respectful to you. Repeating the insult with a backhanded apology was a very poor choice.
The hypocrisy of believing in free speech then suggesting you should remain silent if you object to a position in a thread shows a confused set of principles at work. It's too bad he doesn't seem to realize it or may even refuse to.
I withdrew my earlier post because I thought it might be unwarranted. Now I see, maybe it was.
Too bad,
Korbel
Hello Chef,Ben Dover said:Hi Korbel,
I don't disagree with any of the above. There are definitely limits. I guess I'd just rather have the ability to decide for myself what is too disgusting, rather than have it dictated by government censors and bureaucrats -- or by a couple random posters
Chef,
I am truly sorry for insulting you. You are right and those comments were probably out of line. However, next time you object to a thread as a whole, another way of expressing that would be by not participating in it. If you prefer, I could be sure to respectfully let you know every single time I opine that one of your remarks is bordering on objectionable or asinine... I generally prefer to ignore things like that. Again, sorry for the head-up-the-ass comment...
BD
It's too bad that given time to think he choses to persist in his insulting manner. The first time might be excusable as momentary anger and frustration. Persisting in such worthless exchanges is not. I thank Ben Dover for his respectful response to me, but I deplore his failure to be respectful to you. Repeating the insult with a backhanded apology was a very poor choice.
The hypocrisy of believing in free speech then suggesting you should remain silent if you object to a position in a thread shows a confused set of principles at work. It's too bad he doesn't seem to realize it or may even refuse to.
I withdrew my earlier post because I thought it might be unwarranted. Now I see, maybe it was.
Too bad,
Korbel
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You are right...but.
You are PERFECTLY RIGHT! Thanks for your wisdom. I will try to be properly discerning. It's regrettable that the manners of anyone, Ben Dover or myself, should become an issue on any thread.
Bonne journee',
Korbel
Hello T76,traveller_76 said:Sometimes I'm in the metro, a restaurant, the store, etc, and I hear someone say something really ignorant and stupid, usually by way of a joke. Sometimes I feel like saying something to make them feel ignorant (oh it's easy to shut someone up with words) but Korbel, just as there's no point engaging them in real life there is no point doing it here. I know, who am I to talk (re: my exchanges with one ex vocal member). The more you talk back to it here the more it grows. I hear family members talk about "other races" or even women who work in this industry (all drug-addicted whores; lol... hey guess what I was one!). I shut up (I used to talk back) because it's a waste of MY time. I've learned you can't make them see the world differently--they are already set into their views. Sometimes, you serve the world better by leaving them be what they are.
Oh yes, this was an allusion to certain posters here
t76
You are PERFECTLY RIGHT! Thanks for your wisdom. I will try to be properly discerning. It's regrettable that the manners of anyone, Ben Dover or myself, should become an issue on any thread.
Bonne journee',
Korbel
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traveller_76 said:Indeed, good satire. Quite different from the opener of this thread. Good satire is about getting people to use their political imaginations, not confirm stereotypes.
oh shit, I talked again.
t76
By the way, if there is any satiric content in this Vice piece (oh, I should have mentioned, I know some of the editors at Vice, too, and while they are nice and everything, they sure as hell aren't in the same league as The Onion - check out their podcast radio news, their new TV (web) channel, their publications (newspapers and books) it is riffing off've a well-know 'so you want to date a stripper' piece of net lore.
let me see if I can find it ...
Yeah, here's a copy of the 'original' bit
Here's a very earnest version of it
John Legend said:
R U talking about the top floor at Cleo's?
JL, your post is a bit ambiguous. However I know what you mean.
Hold it!...What I just wrote is ambiguous!
What I meant is I understand your joke and veiled boasting.
Hi Chef,
My apology was sincere. I meant it and I fully agree that insulting each other is not appropriate. My offer to let you know (in the future) when I find your comments objectionable or asinine is not an insult, so I'm not sure why you consider it to be one. I'm simply illustrating the point that people have choices. You can choose to ignore things that you do not approve of, or you can choose to express your opinion. Both are fine. But when you object to the discussion itself (as you did in this case) that's not fine.
If someone wanted to open a thread to discuss abortion, and you object to abortion, would you object to that thread as well? You can object to abortion. But you CANNOT object to people's rights to discuss it.
TO ANSWER YOUR QUESTION CHEF, you could have said "I object to this aricle." OR: "I object to this type of humor" and I would have never opened my mouth. But, when you tell me that you object to my right to read or discuss (anything I fucking feel like reading or discussing), to be frank, it pissed me off to royal extent.
What about capital punishment?
What about French language laws?
If someone wanted to discuss Quebec's separatist movement (which I am opposed to) I certainly would not object to their right to discuss it -- even though the ideas put forth in that thread would be much more potentially damaging to my life, employment and property than a satirical piece on tempting strippers with drugs. I might express my opinion on separation but, as bad as it would be for millions of people, I would not want the discussion to be banned.
Again, we have choices Chef. Each of us an individuals should retain the right to make our own choices.
If someone makes an off-color joke, a joke in poor taste that is demeaning to women, or a certain religion or ethnicity, we can all say "what a loser" or "what a moron" and move on. People who do that deserve the negative attention that they receive. I do not condone that humor in any way -- but I also do not want to gag people based on my personal view of what is an acceptable joke. Let them tell their jokes and suffer the consequenses. It's called freedom of speech. I would rather know who is a hateful moron than have these people keep it bottled up inside (only to blow up, like the idiot who went on a rampage yesterday).
Obviously you are a very sensitive person, so I will not go out of my way to ruffle your feathers anymore. I don't want to make you cry. I'm sorry for insulting you personally. But, I'm not sorry for standing up for my rights as a human being.
FOR THOSE OF YOU READING THIS THAT ARE UNCLEAR ON MY POSITION REGARDING THIS ARTICLE: I feel like a defence attorney for OJ simpson. I know this article is crap. I know it's in poor taste. I know it's "guilty as charged" -- but fuck it. It became apparent to me that no matter how low, dirty and disgusting it is, it deserves to be defended -- not for "what" it says, but "because" it says.
BD
________________
Finally, Korbel... Your post (which you deleted) was the most insulting in this entire thread. It was an off-topic personal commentary on my supposed lack of intelligence, psychological problems etc... I don't need a apology though. I am a big boy and I am ok with you expressing your opinion. I won't threaten to "take my ball and go home" like others do. Obviously you were embarrassed enough by what you said to delete it yourself. I have sympathy for you. It's clear that the faults you so despise in others are the same ones that you so clearly see in yourself. Perhaps you should try a little bit harder to understand what I'm saying. Again, for the nth time... I am defending the right to freedom of expression and free speech. I am not promoting this stupid article. Capish? If you are against free speech, then it's your right to say so. Of course if everyone agrees with you, and free speech is banned, then I sure hope you don't change your mind later -- because it will be too late
Lastly, I have read your SP reviews and found them occaisionally useful. Don't you think that many (even perhaps a disctinct majority of people among us right her in Canada, and certainly in the US) would object to every single one of those reviews? They might say things like "smut" "discussing sex acts with prostitues is disgusting"... In fact, they might "object" to our right to post and read SP reviews... How do you feel about that? OR, is it not ok, if it goes against what YOU believe?
Since you are so smart, well-adjusted and competant, I'm sure you will have no problem explaining to me (and anyone else who cares) the matrix within which you would like our freedoms to exist... ie: "the Korbel matrix" where it's ok to discuss real (actual) graphic unprotected sex acts with hookers, but joking about picking up strippers with an impossible cocktail of drugs is taboo. Perhaps you should read through the code on public decency and initial the items that you are ok with.... You are a living breathing oximoron (I didn't say moron).
BD
My apology was sincere. I meant it and I fully agree that insulting each other is not appropriate. My offer to let you know (in the future) when I find your comments objectionable or asinine is not an insult, so I'm not sure why you consider it to be one. I'm simply illustrating the point that people have choices. You can choose to ignore things that you do not approve of, or you can choose to express your opinion. Both are fine. But when you object to the discussion itself (as you did in this case) that's not fine.
If someone wanted to open a thread to discuss abortion, and you object to abortion, would you object to that thread as well? You can object to abortion. But you CANNOT object to people's rights to discuss it.
TO ANSWER YOUR QUESTION CHEF, you could have said "I object to this aricle." OR: "I object to this type of humor" and I would have never opened my mouth. But, when you tell me that you object to my right to read or discuss (anything I fucking feel like reading or discussing), to be frank, it pissed me off to royal extent.
What about capital punishment?
What about French language laws?
If someone wanted to discuss Quebec's separatist movement (which I am opposed to) I certainly would not object to their right to discuss it -- even though the ideas put forth in that thread would be much more potentially damaging to my life, employment and property than a satirical piece on tempting strippers with drugs. I might express my opinion on separation but, as bad as it would be for millions of people, I would not want the discussion to be banned.
Again, we have choices Chef. Each of us an individuals should retain the right to make our own choices.
If someone makes an off-color joke, a joke in poor taste that is demeaning to women, or a certain religion or ethnicity, we can all say "what a loser" or "what a moron" and move on. People who do that deserve the negative attention that they receive. I do not condone that humor in any way -- but I also do not want to gag people based on my personal view of what is an acceptable joke. Let them tell their jokes and suffer the consequenses. It's called freedom of speech. I would rather know who is a hateful moron than have these people keep it bottled up inside (only to blow up, like the idiot who went on a rampage yesterday).
Obviously you are a very sensitive person, so I will not go out of my way to ruffle your feathers anymore. I don't want to make you cry. I'm sorry for insulting you personally. But, I'm not sorry for standing up for my rights as a human being.
FOR THOSE OF YOU READING THIS THAT ARE UNCLEAR ON MY POSITION REGARDING THIS ARTICLE: I feel like a defence attorney for OJ simpson. I know this article is crap. I know it's in poor taste. I know it's "guilty as charged" -- but fuck it. It became apparent to me that no matter how low, dirty and disgusting it is, it deserves to be defended -- not for "what" it says, but "because" it says.
BD
________________
Finally, Korbel... Your post (which you deleted) was the most insulting in this entire thread. It was an off-topic personal commentary on my supposed lack of intelligence, psychological problems etc... I don't need a apology though. I am a big boy and I am ok with you expressing your opinion. I won't threaten to "take my ball and go home" like others do. Obviously you were embarrassed enough by what you said to delete it yourself. I have sympathy for you. It's clear that the faults you so despise in others are the same ones that you so clearly see in yourself. Perhaps you should try a little bit harder to understand what I'm saying. Again, for the nth time... I am defending the right to freedom of expression and free speech. I am not promoting this stupid article. Capish? If you are against free speech, then it's your right to say so. Of course if everyone agrees with you, and free speech is banned, then I sure hope you don't change your mind later -- because it will be too late
Lastly, I have read your SP reviews and found them occaisionally useful. Don't you think that many (even perhaps a disctinct majority of people among us right her in Canada, and certainly in the US) would object to every single one of those reviews? They might say things like "smut" "discussing sex acts with prostitues is disgusting"... In fact, they might "object" to our right to post and read SP reviews... How do you feel about that? OR, is it not ok, if it goes against what YOU believe?
Since you are so smart, well-adjusted and competant, I'm sure you will have no problem explaining to me (and anyone else who cares) the matrix within which you would like our freedoms to exist... ie: "the Korbel matrix" where it's ok to discuss real (actual) graphic unprotected sex acts with hookers, but joking about picking up strippers with an impossible cocktail of drugs is taboo. Perhaps you should read through the code on public decency and initial the items that you are ok with.... You are a living breathing oximoron (I didn't say moron).
BD
Right again.
Obviously from the above post you don't understand. Such posts like your rant above ARE usleless and irrelevant. This is becoming a personality dispute not a discussion. You now have this personal conflict to yourself.
Enjoy,
Korbel
Hello BD,Ben Dover said:
Obviously from the above post you don't understand. Such posts like your rant above ARE usleless and irrelevant. This is becoming a personality dispute not a discussion. You now have this personal conflict to yourself.
Enjoy,
Korbel
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BD, If someone posted an article named "How to have sex with a"... black woman, or Asian woman, Jewish woman or any other ethnic group, and filled it with racial stereotypes, would you also defend their right to post it and other's right to read it?
In your reply, you mention a number of valid topics for discussion. Any of them would be welcome as long as the topic is not started with a similar post to this one which is degrading to the ladies being discussed in it. If someone wishes to have an intelligent discussion about drug use and strippers, I would be glad to partake. If it starts with the same type of post as this thread, I would not. That piece was not satire, it was an attack.
In your reply, you mention a number of valid topics for discussion. Any of them would be welcome as long as the topic is not started with a similar post to this one which is degrading to the ladies being discussed in it. If someone wishes to have an intelligent discussion about drug use and strippers, I would be glad to partake. If it starts with the same type of post as this thread, I would not. That piece was not satire, it was an attack.
Sorry for ranting about free speech. You're right, it a minor thing. Not worth standing up for it. I surrender to the Korbel matrix.
Incidentally, I completely agree with the post by T76 as well. She is a very smart person. Sometimes it is better to say nothing. However, if you can't even defend your own point of view, when directly asked to do so, then you might as well listen to her and not express it in the first place.
Why don't you go back and delete all of your posts in this thread, other than the first one. As far as I can tell they add nothing of value and are focused only on discrediting my character, not my viewpoint. This could have been a very interesting debate, but I perceive that your comfort zone for discussion is more toward how asses look and how pussies taste, rather than how ideas and thoughts contribute to our society. Nothing wrong with that. I like ass and pussy too. I'll make a note to only engage you in future dialogue that is relevant to rating SPs. Hopefully nobody will object those threads.
I was looking forward to some clarification from you. But when someone puts his hands over his ears and says "na na na... I can't hear you" I get the feeling the conversation is over. Take your ball away and go home. It's your choice. I expected more.
BD
Incidentally, I completely agree with the post by T76 as well. She is a very smart person. Sometimes it is better to say nothing. However, if you can't even defend your own point of view, when directly asked to do so, then you might as well listen to her and not express it in the first place.
Why don't you go back and delete all of your posts in this thread, other than the first one. As far as I can tell they add nothing of value and are focused only on discrediting my character, not my viewpoint. This could have been a very interesting debate, but I perceive that your comfort zone for discussion is more toward how asses look and how pussies taste, rather than how ideas and thoughts contribute to our society. Nothing wrong with that. I like ass and pussy too. I'll make a note to only engage you in future dialogue that is relevant to rating SPs. Hopefully nobody will object those threads.
I was looking forward to some clarification from you. But when someone puts his hands over his ears and says "na na na... I can't hear you" I get the feeling the conversation is over. Take your ball away and go home. It's your choice. I expected more.
BD
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