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Michael Jackson dead at 50!!!

EagerBeaver

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Techman,

I am not sure if you know this but Michael Jackson wrote many of his songs, among them "Billie Jean" and "Don't Stop Til You Get Enough." While I would not put him in a class with John Lennon or Prince in terms of musicianship, if you consider the total package of musicianship, dancing ability and charisma and presence as an entertainer, he may have had the greatest total package of all of these guys, including Elvis, who did not write any of his music.
 
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Techman

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jeff jones said:
Or my personal favorite John Lennon:)

As an artist and songwriter, yes. Not such a great musician.

Some people claim that Elvis was the greatest. He may have been one of the greatest performers/entertainers ever to hit the stage, but he was not a songwriter or a musician. I will always dispute his being called the King of Rock n Roll because very few of his songs qualify as rock n roll in any way. That title should belong to Little Richard.
 

HornyForEver

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Techman said:
Let's not get carried away now. He was a great performer and entertainer, but hardly a musical prodigy or genius. He wasn't exactly known as much of a musician. If you want a true musician and musical genius I would look to someone like Prince instead.

Prince...a genius? You must be kidding right?:D

Very big sigh on the decline of musical taste. By the way, MJ is no genius in my eyes either (a showbiz/marketing genius maybe as he succeeded to attract so many people around him, but nothing more). I consider Beethoven and to a lesser extent Mozart to be geniuses, besides nobody really comes to my mind.
 

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jeff jones said:
I once went to a stompin Tom Conners concert in toronto he was a pretty complete musician. Here he is performing one of his hit songs, enjoy:D



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkHhx3y__9w

I was thinking of him too.... the genuine, unadorned, hard life, non-pedophilia, life.... wrote his own songs... dealt with true life, not some fantasy world.... who can forget the Ballad of Martin Hartwell?

[FONT=courier new,courier,monospace]Oh Mr. Hartwell said the nurse I pray that you will guide us
To save this woman with her child and the boy with appendicitis[/FONT]
 

shijak

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Dee said:
Uhm... didn't he try to make him self white-like? try to deny his blackness? Hardly a recipe for becoming a Gawd in the black community.

Dee, though Michael started his incessant plastic surgeries between his 2 albums OFF THE WALL and THRILLER (circa 1979 and 1984, IIRC) with his infamous nosejob (I think he did something to his eyes as well), the bulk of his metamorphosis occured between the end of his Thriller tour and before the launching of his next album, 'BAD'.

To answer your question, no I don't think he ever intended himself to become the standardbearer for the black community, and yes I think he suffered from a massive dose of self-loathing and self-image problems (resulting with endless plastic surgeries and workaholic patterns in search of love and acceptance from general public).

Yet despite all this, one cannot deny the fundamental change in America brought upon by this man, and two others from that same time period as far as mainstream white america's acceptance, and in some cases the embracing of black contribution to popular culture.

Apart from Michael Jackson, Eddie Murphy is likely the first black actor to have successfully carried a mainstream Hollywood motion picture to blockbuster status (i.e.: mega-profitable) and to repeat that feat at least a half-dozen times. Before him, a few blacks made the attempt, such as Sydney Poitier, Richard Pryor, Pam Grier and Richard Roundtree, but none of them achieved Eddie's level of crossover appeal at that point. In the early 80's having a black person headline a major Hollywood film was almost unheard of, but today we have countless rap artists giving it their try (Snoop Dogg, Mos Def, Ice Cube and Queen Latifah), Wrestlers like The Rock, comedians like Chris Tucker, Chris Rock and Dave Chappelle, to legitimate actors like Angela Bassett and Don Cheadle. The most succesful black actor today is likely a toss between Samuel Jackson and Denzel Washington.

Switching to the medium of television, the 70's was the turning point for the black community after decades of being nearly invisible on the boob tube. Finally eschewing the little sambo roles, some daring producers finally found their balls and broadcast a few shows that actually reflected black america. There were the Jeffersons, Sanford and Son with Redd Foxx, and Good Times with Jimmy Walker. The mini-series ROOTS was another eye-opening experience for whitebread america, but it would take another decade before a TV veteran would grab everyone's attention, black white or yellow, to became a household name: Bill Cosby stayed on the air for more years than anyone ever expected, retained White america's attention with family situations that they could relate to, yet the show still kept its integrity by openly displaying the concerns and everyday lives of an often-ignored minority. Cosby paved the way for more sitcoms with a similar vein (heck, the WB and UPN networks during their infant years seemed like all they had were black-themed sitcoms).

Which brings us back to Michael...

Despite all the many changes in North America's cultural landscape during the 70's for the blacks (finally getting a voice in cinema with BLAXPLOITATION films, tv shows with black actors and characters as the focal point rather than as insulting stereotypical background characters, the flourishing of Motown and its stable of amazing musicians and singers), they never seemed to break out of its niche audience and fans (blacks, minorities and urban whites).

In fact, many of the spectacular gains by blacks in the 70's seemed to peter out by the last few years of that decade: Motown's soul and funk was superceded by the white-dominated Disco movement (ironically since Disco was a funk offshoot that began in Black clubs, and gay clubs as well). You'd be very hard-pressed to see ANY hollywood movies at that time with a black lead character that wasn't just a co-star (as in Richard Pryor with Gene Wilder or Superman:) ). And television after a few strong years of social questioning with All in the Family, was deep in its GROOVY years with fluff shows like Charley's Angels, Love Boat, and Three's Company (I am racking my brain to try to remember any black actors on tv between 1978 and 1983, but I just can't).

Enter Michael Jackson...

Unlike the rest of his Motown brethren Diana Ross, Donna Summer and Lionel Ritchie who retired following the death of disco or who sunk into syrupy pop drivel, Michael shook off the doldrums that had strangled the music industry in the early 80's (Come on, I dare ya to name me a memorable musical act from 1980 to 1983. Christopher Cross? LOL) and kicked america in the ass with his album Thriller. Not content to just offer a bunch of really catchy tunes, he attacked the fledgling music video phenomenom and revolutionized it. To give the audience something to look at, he came up with a whole passel of dance moves that are still imitated today (even by Nathan J :D ).
Some of his stage costumes caught the public's fancy as well, and soon MJ'S red leather outfit from THRILLER was on the back of poseurs everywhere:D .

Even more surprising that he became a success, but all of a sudden, everyone in white america soon knew who he was and bought and listened to his music. Even better yet, many people from almost every country in the world soon did the same. How often does that happen? He became the new Beatlemania, but spread out beyond the white community.

His success wetted the public's thirst for the next big thing, paving the way for other black artists who otherwise might have stayed in obscurity, such as Prince and the Revolution (and his army of tag-alongs, like Vanity, Morris Day and the Tyme, etc), Lenny Kravitz, Janet Jackson, Seal, which then opened the door for the Rap\Hip Hop domination of the last 2 decades.

If you ask most current black hip hop musicians, I would betcha most would credit Michael Jackson for busting down the colour barrier (even Justin Timberlake and his 'N Sync buddies publically thanked Michael once)...

Am I any more than a casual fan? No, but I am not blind to the changes in society brought about by this man's music.
 
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Techman

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EagerBeaver said:
Techman,

I am not sure if you know this but Michael Jackson wrote many of his songs, among them "Billie Jean" and "Don't Stop Til You Get Enough." While I would not put him in a class with John Lennon or Prince in terms of musicianship, if you consider the total package of musicianship, dancing ability and charisma and presence as an entertainer, he may have had the greatest total package of all of these guys, including Elvis, who did not write any of his music.

I would put Prince up against MJ in any category: musicianship, dancing ability, charisma and presence as an entertainer. Few people are aware that on the majority of his recorded work, he is the only musician playing all instruments on every track. This includes the four albums by the Time on which he played all instruments and provided backing vocals. He is the epitome of the 'one man band'. The only thing that Prince didn't do was sell out his art for popularity.

Unfortunately religion has taken a bit of the edge off of his music since he became a Jehovah's Witness. It may also have serious repercussions for his future stage career as he needs a hip replacement but will not undergo surgery due to his religious beliefs against blood transfusion.

Somehow I can't imagine MJ doing a duet of this quality with Beyonce...

http://www.imeem.com/people/RBgWo2o/video/zYJbhQGb/grammys-2004-prince-beyonce-music-video
 

HornyForEver

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shijak said:
Dee, though Michael started his incessant plastic surgeries between his 2 albums OFF THE WALL and THRILLER (circa 1979 and 1984, IIRC) with his infamous nosejob (I think he did something to his eyes as well), the bulk of his metamorphosis began after his Thriller tour ended and he was readying his next album, 'BAD'.

I was watching a special show on RFO last night about his career. It seems that his father used to beat him when he did not perform well. He also used to call him "big nose". MJ, reportedly, started his metamorphosis in an attempt not to look like his father anymore as he hated him. Though, things went out of his hands.

More tragic deaths of suffering souls are more likely to come, just think about Brittney Spears and Amy Winehouse, to name a few.
 

Dr Edgar Who

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HornyForEver said:
Prince...a genius? You must be kidding right?:D

Very big sigh on the decline of musical taste. By the way, MJ is no genius in my eyes either (a showbiz/marketing genius maybe as he succeeded to attract so many people around him, but nothing more). I consider Beethoven and to a lesser extent Mozart to be geniuses, besides nobody really comes to my mind.

Hmmm. I think we have had some musical geniuses born since the eighteenth century. Not sure MJ would make the top twenty of the 20th century (he wouldn't make mine) but he certainly had a tremendous impact. Moreover, he innovated in dance, fashion and music.

Certainly out-ranks Elvis in my opinion who, as EB pointed out, didn't write anything and was mainly successful because he was a handsome white guy playing black music. I doubt Stompin' Tom is going to be remembered a whole long time for his impact on the musical world but I may be missing something. Neither will Diana Krall, who is very good but playing an established style. Geniuses are generally recognized for their innovations in music, not for continuing an established style.

John Lennon + Paul McCartney will surely make many lists
Bob Dylan and Bob Marley will make many lists too
Perhaps Ray Charles and Sam Cooke deserve a hearing
not to mention Louis Jordan and Big Joe Turner
and let's not forget Louis Armstrong, Duke Ellington, Miles Davis etc.

But I don't think MJ's significant rank in the annals of 20th century music can be denied. And I think it is appropriate we celebrate this.

He was pretty fucked up too, I think everyone will agree on that... but let's recognize his contribution. You won't find me crying over this outcome like people you find on TV, I didn't know him after all and it was pretty much inevitable given his drug use. Indeed maybe it was innevitable from the beginning, from his childhood of being whipped into a money-making dancing/singing machine by his father.

His life strikes me as more tragic than his death frankly.
 
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YouVantOption

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Techman said:
The only thing that Prince didn't do was sell out his art for popularity.

Unfortunately religion has taken a bit of the edge off of his music since he became a Jehovah's Witness. It may also have serious repercussions for his future stage career as he needs a hip replacement but will not undergo surgery due to his religious beliefs against blood transfusion.

Whether he tours or not, check out his new triple-disc release lotusflow3r.com. Some of his best stuff in years, IMO, and I have been a steadfast fan since Controversy.

But 'better than' MJ? I don't know, hard to say, given that Thriller (I just bought the 25th anniversary re-release) is one of those albums that is perfect start to end. But then again, so is Purple Rain.
 

Dee

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A scholarly piece Shijak... thanks..

When Christie's article from the G and M becomes available on line I'll post what she had to say about his blackness.

It's interesting how many posters have said (in effect): he's not really my cup of tea... you can add me to that group...

I don't argue his sales and success and I don't damn the dead... but when speaking of someone certain things come to my mind first... but that isn't to deny their genius in other areas... let me exaggerate to demonstrate: my first thoughts about Hitler aren't "What a genius.. he united a dispirited German people... conquered large parts of Europe etc"... I tend to think of something else first; the same for Stalin...

It seems to me that what we condemn in the "ordinary Joe" we tend to give a free pass to a celebrity.... and I fear the message that that sends...

I also wonder if one can be a genius (in any field), without being, at least, odd. (present company excluded :))


Shijak said:

MJ'S red leather outfit from THRILLER was on the back of poseurs everywhere:D .


Now I know why Techamn is dressed the way he his.... but you can bet he's known many pedophiles with whom he's had sex for nothing and who went on to operate successful nail salons. ;)
 
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shijak

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jeff jones said:
I am not a fan of Elvis or MJ but make no mistake about it Elvis has had a far greater impact on Music history then MJ ever will, time will bear this out:)

Elvis has a whole station on satellite radio devoted to him. Let's see them give one to Mikey in the future...:)
 

Dr Edgar Who

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jeff jones said:
I am not a fan of Elvis or MJ but make no mistake about it Elvis has had a far greater impact on Music history then MJ ever will, time will bear this out:)

I think the world agrees with you JJ, certainly Rolling Stone does..

I guess I have just listened to too much original black R&B to really
understand what the big deal was. Make no mistake, Elvis is great
but he seems hopelessly over-hyped as an innovator to me.
I have a hard time seeing him outrank Ray Charles and Bob Marley.
 

bond_james_bond

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There is no objective criteria to judge something as highly artistic as music.

If MJ's music does not appeal to you, then that may not be how another person interprets his music. I was not a big fan of his music, and I was only mildly entertained by his videos. But that is just my taste.

All we can measure is how many albums he sold, and that enough of the world thought enough of his music and his performances to warrant this global media attention.
 

Merlot

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jeff jones said:
I once went to a stompin Tom Conners concert in toronto he was a pretty complete musician. Here he is performing one of his hit songs, enjoy:D



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkHhx3y__9w

Hello JJ,

Obviously you chose to ignore the intent of the teachers remark as tongue in cheek just so you could also ignore the rest. Not unexpected. The fact is you and those of your mind set were determined to find him guilty of something simply because his lifestyle and eccentricities were odious to you whether he was accused of anything or not. You HATE him anyway so that's it. Well I have already said I found all of his quirks highly distasteful too, and even repulsive. Frankly I felt far more loss when Lennon was killed than Jackson. But HATE is not evidence and despite all of his faults there is no doubt he was the greatest and most charismatic entertainer in history...bar none.

I agreed with the basic logic of your conclusion, but it doesn't automatically make him guilty, though I never said he wasn't. And, as I pointed out your over-simplistic "ducks" theory doesn't work all that well.

However, when one does look into the logic of your limited "Duck theory" one wonders how the parents of the children also couldn't see the crime waiting if your theory works. If we use your point of view then what the hell were the parents thinking. Now, there's no question that if someone commits pedophilia he 100% responsible for his actions. No excuses! But, if as you suggest this theory is correct and no jury of the public could do anything but convict just because the idea of sleeping with children is too strange, unseemly, or perverse by the standards of "normal society"...then how could anyone send their children or allow them to stay there. If the very idea is so perverse and the act of perversion so inevitable, then you must be suggesting the parents are also guilty of putting their children in this position. That is totally besides any guilt of the the culprit, but can you explain how the parents weren't just sickened by the idea well before allowing their children to stay there?

I did say the aspect of the parents decision was totally apart from the guilt of the culprit, so try not to come back with the usual dodge of saying I blame the victims. The question of how the parents could allow this is a valid point if your line of argument is the whole thing was so perverse anyone must think Jackson was a determined pedophile. What I wonder is how many of these parents might of or were deliberately using the perception of inevitable perversity ( as you say) for an intentional court case and pay day. As Evan Chandler, the first alleged victim, was recorded saying: "If I go through with this, I win big-time. There's no way I lose. I will get everything I want and they will be destroyed forever...Michael's career will be over". That would make the public perception and your simplistic "Duck theory" very useful...wouldn't it.

Cheers,

Merlot
 
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centaurus

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How does MJ compare to lets say, Celine Dion or Roch Voisine?

Weird how MJ's death bumped the iranian revolts off the front page. Concidence? i think not.
 

metoo4

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If only I knew...
It would be fun to see a study who look at who's the most known person amongst a bunch of celebrities.

I must admit, a big part of the names mentionned here ranking against MJ are unknown to me.

- stompin Tom Conners: who's that? A wrestler? Na, JJ said he went to one of his concert...
- Sam Cooke, Louis Jordan and Big Joe Turner: no idea.
- Burl Ives: Burl who?

What I mean is, these names are known to peoples listening the type of music they made. Michael Jackson, like Elvis Presley are names known by peoples who like any music type, no matter if they are huge fans of the type or if they hate that music with passion.

Now, if that's what being a star implies, MJ was one of the biggest star that ever lived! Of course, there's more to it but, in my opinion, the reminder of his career confirms he is one of the biggest musical star.
 

Dr Edgar Who

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metoo4 said:
I must admit, a big part of the names mentionned here ranking against MJ are unknown to me.
- Sam Cooke, Louis Jordan and Big Joe Turner: no idea.

Sam Cooke : Gospel/pop singer, One of the creators of Soul Music
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sam_Cooke
Made #16 in Rolling Stone Survey
A huge influence on pop singers ever since

Louis Jordan : Singer/Sax player who moved from Jazz/Swing and helped create early R&B and Rock and Roll. Some have even noted his style on some song as a precursor to rap but I think this is stretching it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_Jordan
Made #59 in Rolling Stone Survey but his influence was IMO pretty seminal,
arguably the creator of rock and roll and they put him #59!

Big Joe Turner : Rock and Roll pioneer who recorded "Shake Rattle and Roll"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Joe_Turner
A favorite of mine but perhaps not quite worthy of the above company.

These last two were innovators in the 40s and early 50s...
MJ will surely be remembered 50 years from now but we'll have to see how well he stands the test of time.
Some bands like the Velvet Underground are probably more recognised now than when they recorded their music.

The thing that strikes me as most unfair is that Bill Hailey and Elvis are too much credited with
Rock and Roll while Chuck Berry, Little Richard and their precursors above don't get their just share of the credit.

PS: Just to give an idea of how dominant Louis Jordan was in the late forties : check out the R&B charts for 1946-1950
yet the guy is largely forgotten today. So, where will MJ's rep be in 50 years? ... only time will tell.
One thing I will say though, I don't think anyone would deny that mainstream western music changed more between
1909 and 1959 than it did between 1959 and today, so I would be careful to marginalise the contributions of earlier innovators...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_number-one_rhythm_and_blues_hits_(United_States)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hot_R&B/Hip-Hop_Songs
Hell, even the guitar riff at the start of Johnny B Goode was largely based on a version of "Ain't that just like a woman"
by Jordan's band.

These are fairly jazzy tunes but two of the better quality numbers I found after a quick look at YouTube:

Is you is or is you ain;t you my baby :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nXBHyEHKrvs

Five guys named moe :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7m7jXpDaK58

Some of his numbers have more of a "rock" sound though.
 
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