My last comments on the Apple vs Microsoft question

[Techman]

Considering the mods have decided what is permissible in a thread that I started, I've decided to start this thread which will be my last thread about anything to do with computers or technology. As of this thread, I will no longer make any contributions or give any advice or help to anyone who has questions or requests. To be honest about it, I've had it with the Apple trolls who have to stick their noses in every thread started about computers, whether they know anything about computing or not. Apple make a fine product, as I've said many times in the past, and so do Microsoft despite what the Apple fans would like you to believe. Choose what fits your needs and you'll probably be happy with your choice.

Using your logic, there would be no MS at all if it was not for Apple since they invented the consumer personal computer. Historically MS only wrote software for Apple's hardware since it was the only viable personal computer on the market.

First of all, it seems that some people here need a history lesson. For one, Bill Gates and Microsoft, other than licensing Apple to use DOS, never wrote software exclusively for Apple. They did write software for IBM however, including OS/2, which led to the success of the IBM PC.
When it comes to home computing, neither Apple or IBM were in the game at the beginning. The first home computer wars were between Tandy/Radio Shack, Commodore and Atari.
I still own a Commodore PET computer in perfect condition. Anyone remember the Vic20 or the Commodore 64 or the Amiga? Maybe the Coleco ADAM? They were the first affordable and usable home computers, not the Apple I or II or the Lisa or the Mac or the IBM PC which were all priced well out of the range of the average consumer.

The rest of your post is not worth replying to as it is pointless and misinformed. If you think that OS-X will ever surpass Windows in the marketplace, you are simply delusional. Or Steve Jobs.

They do make such offers actually. Though, I agree with you on this one that neither Mac nor Windows is going to make it on the server market.

HFE, for a company that owns the small-medium business server market, Microsoft seems to be doing pretty good considering that in your opinion they have no future in that area. Other than the SMB area, it's almost impossible to determine server market share because of the vastness of that particular domain and the variety of servers that exist. But it's safe to say that Apple is not a player in that arena in any significant way.

You were wondering what I'm running at the moment? OK, I currently run an Intel i7 920 CPU, overclocked to 3.8Ghz, with 12 GB of DDR3 Triple Channel RAM, A VelociRaptor 10,000RPM 300GB hd for my OS which is Windows 7 Ultimate 64bit, along with a 1TB hard drive for storage.
My system also has two hot swap bays for extra hard drives as they are required. I have two ATI 4870 Video cards, with 1 GB RAM on each, running in crossfire mode.
Most of the software I run isn't available for Mac, such as Adobe CS4 Master Collection 64bit, so there is no point in listing it here.
As for price, this system, excluding software but including the OS, cost me less than the cheapest available Mac desktop computer. There is no Mac available on the market with anything similar to this configuration and there is no Mac that can run 64 bit CS4 as it is not available for OS/X. It is difficult to compare because you can't overclock a Mac or run two video cards in crossfire mode. There is also nothing between the iMac, which is an all in one system and not upgradeable, and the Mac Pro which runs the Xeon CPU.

For those interested in facts, here are a couple of interesting links:

Operating system market share:
http://marketshare.hitslink.com/operating-system-market-share.aspx?qprid=10

History of personal computing time line:
http://pctimeline.info/

That's it. I'm done with technology threads. Have fun guys, attack away!

 

[johnmbot]

I still own a Commodore PET computer in perfect condition.

letting go of your 1st love is never easy. you might want to talk to someone about that.

OK, I currently run an Intel i7 920 CPU, overclocked to 3.8Ghz...etc. etc. etc...

you obviously use those maxx condoms, eh?

 

[metoo4]

I just can't understand Apple people who insist on the superiority of the Apple brand.

Personally, I avoid Apple like the plague because I hate being stuck doing things "the Apple way or the highway". I'm pretty certain if IBM would have kept a closed architecture on the PC and force all sw and hw to be developed only by them, the PC world would be more stable and easy to use but the flexibility and affordability would be gone.

One very important thing to remember is, in the PC world, we deal with multiple OS manufacturers, running software from multiple software companies, all of this on hardware built by another humongous number of companies. Microcrap is only one of the player in the OS/software arena and it bugs me like hell when I ear peoples mixing all the above points together without distinctions.

Apple run on hardware that is Apple-certified and mostly Apple-built, to Apple specifications, with an Apple OS. The only variable is the software. It's pretty easy to be all good-looking when you control everything. Open the Apple architecture tomorrow to anybody who care to play in it and start allowing clones and, within about one year, that will look like the PC in terms of possible mess. The biggest difference we'll see won't be the mess however, it will be the price of the Mac clones falling like rocks.

That change won't turn the Mac in less of a computer, it will make it more accessible.

Comparing to cars is too funny. Take the baddest most powerful Ferrari and throw it in a dirt road with 4" pot holes. That Ferrari, as good as it is, will be worthless.

The PC running Windows is simply the best tool in over 90%+ of the situation. It have nothing to do with it being better-built than the Apple, it's because it's the best combo to use in 90%+ of the situation. It's even more true now that Apple run almost identical hardware to the PC under the hood, with the simple difference that it's Apple-matched.

 

[Techman]

Originally Posted by YouVantOption




Nu-uh, wasn't me who posted that comment. Maybe if you were using a Mac the post would have rendered better and you would have gotten the gang-banged attributions straight.

You are correct, sir! Quote corrected and my abject apologies offered.

 

[Techman]

MacOS is based on UNIX (two BSD flavors actually), and as you might know, building an 64-bit UNIX is just a matter of changing a compilation flag value. When 64-bit architectures and later multi-core processors came in, the only OSes that were ready for such architectures were UNIX-based.

Ummm, you sure about that? Microsoft has had a 64 bit OS since Windows XP and introduced the first purely 64 bit consumer operating system with Vista 64 bit when consumer hardware had finally made it into the 64 bit level. Apple has yet to introduce one as their current offering is a hybrid 32/64 bit which can't load into 64 bit mode without user intervention at boot up. UNIX based or not, Apple still hasn't made the grade yet.

 

[Dee]

You are frustrated, but there are many silent ones who appreciate your assistance on computer problems and your observations. You have a rich, profound, practical knowledge of the field. Illegitimi non carborundum!

 

[CS Martin]

Techman,

I'm going to keep this short out of necessity, as I'm currently nursing a partially rebuilt wrist and just hen-pecking away. I'm going to be truly sorry to see your wisdom missing in any respect on this board and understand your feelings on moderation. I'll be the first one to admit I cursed MS no less than 3 times today, but also had to admit when used properly they provide a very robust product a significant part of the time.

I would love to say more, but getting involved in a posting debate is not an option for me at this time. Good luck.

 

[Below500k]

Hey TM,

You know of course nothing here is personal, I enjoy these discussions, have them all the time with my propellerheads. So let's go...

"First of all, it seems that some people here need a history lesson. For one, Bill Gates and Microsoft, other than licensing Apple to use DOS, never wrote software exclusively for Apple. "

"They did write software for IBM however, including OS/2, which led to the success of the IBM PC.
When it comes to home computing, neither Apple or IBM were in the game at the beginning. The first home computer wars were between Tandy/Radio Shack, Commodore and Atari."

Um no.

1st point first...

Excel was conceived and written for the Mac, then released for the graphical version of Win, which of course did not exist.

And that was the point. While you are correct about the Comm. and Atari being first, the revolution came with Apple and their (mainstream) invention of the GUI.

Without it, MS would have of course existed, but they still would of had to wait for someone with the vision that Apple/Jobs has always had. The world has always needed both types of brilliance, but they are very different, and are very co-dependent --- something that MS fans for some reason have a hard time admitting. It is sort of like the reverse racism arguments that american republicans are spewing now.

Since 84, the aggression aimed at Apple have been about their pricing and exclusivity - both of these arguments seem to me are based upon frustration. What is odd about this is that Gates did the same thing... only he refined it down to software alone, and turned it into the most successful business model of all time.

---

And finally about your rig... sounds hot! But again...

"As for price, this system, excluding software but including the OS, cost me less than the cheapest available Mac desktop computer."

You know this is incorrect, deceptive at best.

You can get a Mac Mini for the cost of your vid. cards and ram. Add in your raptor and Windows and you can get an iMac.

Of course your machine would smoke an iMac in motion blurring a 600mb image, but 99.5% of the world does not do those type of things.

64 bit is cool, Adobe will bring it to Mac at CS5 (if they stop arguing that is!) this year. The i7 is cool if you clock it and have very fast RAM as you've done. However the standard Mac multi cores do do very well... and are better at doing more than one process at a time, and are very, very stable.

And so I guess this comes full circle in the discussion... Apple has never been friendly for hackers/tweakers and that always seems to be the ones that level their frustration at them with both barrels blazing. So again I'll use a car analogy to make my point...

You could of course tweak a Mazda and get a car that will beat a BMW M3 in a drag for much less money. If you are into doing that, enjoy it. But that does not mean that the people who do not drag race, and who enjoy the design, feel, and good performance of the BMW give a shit about not having as many mods available, nor the price -- they like the way it rides and it does more than they will ever need it to do. And as many times as you try to make the argument that your box will outpace their box and it cost less, they will still look at you and smile... because their driving a BMW and their fingernails are clean.

 

[Techman]

I'm currently nursing a partially rebuilt wrist and just hen-pecking away.

See what happens when you take things into your own hands instead of visiting Montreal's lovely ladies?

I'm not really mad at the mods, I understand why they stepped into the other thread. I'm just pissed off at the trolls who think that personal computing started with the birth of Apple and who have very limited knowledge of the computer industry as a whole. I guess I'm tired of the 'Apple is perfect - MS is crap' bullshit from people who can't look at things objectively or realistically.

I'll still help anyone who asks by PM, just not on the board.

Take care of the wrist!

 

[Techman]

Below500k, I guess you don't know what 'exclusively' means. It means for one platform only, never to be released on another. It doesn't mean 'first'. As the Mac was the only GUI platform at the time, it's only logical that it was released there first. MS also released Excel for the OS/2 platform. Microsoft is a software company and they do not discriminate by platform like some others do.

Apple didn't invent the GUI, they 'borrowed' it from Xerox.

When you talk about Apple, you always seem to think that it's Jobs only. Don't forget Wozniak who was the heart of the company and Apple has never been the same without him.

. However the standard Mac multi cores do do very well... and are better at doing more than one process at a time, and are very, very stable.

There's no such thing as a Mac multi core. The processors are made by Intel and are the same Core 2 Duo and Quad processors available for any PC platform. The difference is that there is a much larger choice in CPUs on the PC platform than on the Mac.

As for the cost...my system cost me less than the cheapest iMac, but you're right...the Mini Mac is cheaper.

The car analogy doesn't hold water unless you're comparing two cars with the same engine and drive train, as PC and Mac use the same 'engine'. Just the body is different. You can also customize any car from any manufacturer to your heart's delight with aftermarket parts...kind of like PCs don't you think?

PS: My system will smoke any iMac in any application that is available for both platforms. And I can change monitors without having to buy a new computer.

 

[Special K]

I guess I'm tired of the 'Apple is perfect - MS is crap bullshit from people who can't look at things objectively or realistically.

This is exactly why I mostly remain out of the Sports threads now, same exact thing! Objectivity and realism are completely gone, except of course from your quality balanced posts in those threads. Hang in there!

 

[Below500k]

"Below500k, I guess you don't know what 'exclusively' means."

Hey now.<grin>
I'm talking reality. If you want to get into semantics and pure definitions<yawn>, Excel was indeed exclusive for the Mac for a short period of time as there was no other.

"Microsoft is a software company and they do not discriminate by platform like some others do."

Scuse me? Office runs on Linux/Unix?
MS's entire success was due exactly to it's exclusivity - so much so that it is currently still fending off anti-monopoly lawsuits.

"Apple didn't invent the GUI, they 'borrowed' it from Xerox."

Indeed. Steve and Woz (yes I know who they are and their roles), saw that, created hardware for it, and brought it to us. Kind of in the same way Allen and Gates borrowed the MacOs and brought windows to fruition.

"As for the cost...my system cost me less than the cheapest iMac, but you're right...the Mini Mac is cheaper."

I doubt that I could buy those components for less than 1200, not even excluding the monitor. Maybe you being in the biz can, but if I price out your completed box there is no way I get <1200. I do not really care one way or another, and know what you are trying to say, we do not need to discuss it further.

"The car analogy doesn't hold water unless you're comparing two cars with the same engine and drive train, as PC and Mac use the same 'engine'."

Um, no your interpretation of my analogy seemed to miss the point. This is what I was talking about...

"You can also customize any car from any manufacturer to your heart's delight with aftermarket parts...kind of like PCs don't you think?"

The analogy for illustration purposes was that of people who own those individual vehicles, only the tweakers are the ones who actually care about the components and will usually be the ones to point out that theirs is faster and cheaper. Apple users, like Beemer drivers just like their experience interacting with their boxes without having to worry about/thinking about "clocking".

"PS: My system will smoke any iMac in any application that is available for both platforms. And I can change monitors without having to buy a new computer."

You bet. But you still have to live with Windows. <rib>

 

[rumpleforeskiin]

I'll be the first one to admit I cursed MS no less than 3 times today...

That makes exactly three more times than I've cursed the Mac OS since the introduction of OS X ten years ago.

 

[HornyForEver]

PS: My system will smoke any iMac in any application that is available for both platforms.

I second this claim. I think that Techman's computer will beat any iMac running any application.

Seriously Techman,

It is so weird to see you getting so emotional over technical "dicussions". You must not be a happy person if you take things so personally. Anyway, it seems that most other contributors kept their tone down most of the time and provided in many cases very valid arguments that you failed to appreciate because you were so blinded by your loyalty to MS. It is also scary to see you posting on this topic in a quasi-compulsive way.

Now, if you excuse me, I am going to thank the Lord, again, for giving humanity such a valuable gift named Steve Jobs. The best visionary of all times.

FYI, I think that MS is crap and that Apple is crap as well. Apple is mostly crap because it jails you down as soon as you purchase one of their products.

 

[Techman]

I've never, in any post or thread, said that Apple doesn't provide good product. I have said that I do not like their business practices and their bs superiority complex. For that reason, I won't buy their products. If you want to, go right ahead but don't use false claims such as Apple are inherently more secure due to the quality of the product. I just have a very low tolerance for bullshit.

As for the exclusivity claim...unless there are options where the same product can be used, you can't exactly claim exclusivity. Apple has exclusivity on the Mac OS because it cannot be installed on any other system without illegal modification of the product.

As for the car analogy...I've known a number of people who have modified BMWs. Mercedez also or have you never heard of AMG? Even Ferraris and Lambos are routinely modified by some owners. Just as I've known many people with rice rockets or classic American muscle cars. An Apple 'car' would be one that cannot be modified, whether you want to or not.

And I'm quite happy to run Windows 7 which is the most advanced OS available on the market today.

 

[mass1965]

How many last last comments are there going to be? Just can not wait for the next. They are so entertaining...lol

 

[rumpleforeskiin]

And I'm quite happy to run Windows 7 which is the most advanced OS available on the market today.

And, of course, this comes after many hours of running a Mac under Snow Leopard so you can compare the two systems side by side. Spare me.

"NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- Microsoft launched Windows 7 in late October to much fanfare. But, just like with previous Windows upgrades, complaints about bugs have already started rolling in.

A whopping 31% of clients have reported problems with upgrading to Windows 7, according to a recent survey of more than 100,000 customers conducted by consumer helpdesk firm iYogi."

Why is it that you never hear about upgrade problems when Apple launches a new OS, but you always hear about problems and bugs galore when MS does?

 

[Doc Holliday]

I'll still help anyone who asks by PM, just not on the board.

I'll miss your insight on computers & technology. To be honest, your posts in regards to microcomputing have been fascinating & you're probably the only poster i consider to be relevant on this board (or any boards, for the matter).

Your wisdom will be missed & i hope you don't let a handful of your detractors to ruin it for not only yourself, but for the rest of us who enjoy your posts.

 

[Voyager]

Your wisdom will be missed & i hope you don't let a handful of your detractors to ruin it for not only yourself, but for the rest of us who enjoy your posts.

Techman,

Doc put into words what I've been thinking every time someone hijacks or otherwise pollutes threads that you participate in. Whenever someone has asked any type of technical/technology question, you've been the one to respond with clear advice. The board will lose a great resource if you only offer your knowledge in the backchannel.

I've certainly been on the receiving end of your suggestions, and very much appreciate your help.

Whatever your decision, I look forward to picking your brain in the future!

Voyager

 

[Merlot]

Hello Gentlemen,

"You do a better job of discrediting yourself than I could ever hope to."

There seems to have been a lot of valuable information given in this thread. But it is being discredited generally by the atmosphere of a team/brand cheering section attitude. The attitude of na na na na na naaaaa...you suck...I got you...I win I win I win severely damages credibility in my view. There is no reason for a sports team atmosphere to be involved here. Yes, I know I have done plenty of this myself, but as one of those in need of good, reliable, creditable information this time, the rah rah cheer leading sort of stuff is badly polluting any perception that those who do this are providing good useful information.

Many of us have built up faith in certain members over time and will stick with them. But even then a battle of the brands atmosphere in the posts makes confidence in the information being provided more difficult. For one, I put far more stock in those who can balance their opinion by being genuine about the benefits and faults of products fairly. Here everyone has been a bit of a cheerleader at times. Some have been creditable by demonstrating their expertise despite the cheer leading. But as a buyer in need of honest information the "YEA TEAM" stuff is damaging the usefulness of anyone who does it.

I have used both PC and Mac for different things and I have to say they are both fantastic in their own ways. I do prefer PC simply because it's a lot cheaper and more fun to customize. I wouldn't use a pc however if I was a graphic designer. I guess what I'm getting at is that you guys seem to be arguing over a dead point, Both products work for different people. Neither is superior to me, just different. MS makes a pretty decent o/s for the masses. They have for years and will continue to do so. Apple makes really cool products that are advanced and fun to use and they will do so for a long time to come.

Above is a good example of a more creditable presentation even if it is short on details. For more helpful information I would use CNET. http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-31012_7-10319612-10355804.html It may have many faults too, but at least it attempts to be balanced.

I've decided to start this thread which will be my last thread about anything to do with computers or technology.

That is a loss to all.

Techman,

I've certainly been on the receiving end of your suggestions, and very much appreciate your help.

Whatever your decision, I look forward to picking your brain in the future!

Voyager

Ditto! Just like the reviews, it's too bad people generally on this board can't just provide their information without creating or having to fight against personal battles resulting in the loss of valuable information and expertise. It explains why there are so many problems in the world. No matter how educated or uneducated, most human beings would rather compete to be right instead of cooperate...lol.

Sadly,

Merlot