Nice la Presse Article on XO this morning

[Lunaseraphim]

I could respond with countless personal stories when I lost friends and family members and was isolated because of denouncing... As well as stories of countless women I know. But I don't want my entire weekend ruined and I'm tired of this. This whole situation is already upsetting enough on its own.

 

[TheJames101]

It was my 1st thought too ...

It wasn't the case with the Clementine story though. He literally had a letter written to her in the envelope with the money. He didn't think she would come with him, so he intended to leave the letter, the money, and leave.

 

[RobertNYC]

Do you have any empathy for victims at all?????
I can't believe what I'm reading here!!!!

Don’t take this the wrong way, but it seems as if I have significantly more empathy than you.

I’m clearly saying if an escort or even client has first hand knowledge a rape occurred on premises, then report it. Don’t hide behind “they may not believe me” or “they might take my money,” which you said happens. I’m saying do the right thing and let chips fall as they may.

Any client or escort who knew a rape or assault occurred and did nothing is somewhat culpable

And I’d hate to say it, but as for your post, I can’t believe what I’m reading.

 

[Lunaseraphim]

Don’t take this the wrong way, but it seems as if I have significantly more empathy than you.

I’m clearly saying if an escort or even client has first hand knowledge a rape occurred on premises, then report it. Don’t hide behind “they may not believe me” or “they might take my money,” which you said happens. I’m saying do the right thing and let chips fall as they may.

Any client or escort who knew a rape or assault occurred and did nothing is somewhat culpable

And I’d hate to say it, but as for your post, I can’t believe what I’m reading.

You truly don't understand and what you're telling me is insanely insulting. Shame on you. You have never been raped, and you should not be talking to me this way.

All I've been doing is call out practices and assaults on this thread. I have called out clients before and got threats and backlash. Imagine if organized crime is involved in this situation.

You didn't read anything I said.

You have no idea what the process for denouncing your own assault to the police is. If you knew you would understand why people don't do it. Also saying that people will be taken seriously by coming to the police with something they witnessed of heard is really foolish.

Maybe inform yourself a bit more about what victims of abuse go through instead of this common misogynistic discourse that we're all lying princesses who can send anybody to jail by snapping fingers

 

[RobertNYC]

You truly don't understand and what you're telling me is insanely insulting. Shame on you. You have never been raped and you have the fucking nerve to talk to me like this.

You’re right, I haven’t been raped. But if I had any knowledge that you or anyone was raped in a room right next to me, I would immediately go the police regardless of the consequences (at least I’d like to think I would).

I’d hope I wouldn’t say, well, the police may not believe me, I may be asked too many questions etc. I’d hope I would report and not let someone be raped again and again.

Maybe there is something getting lost in translation here, but I’m clearly saying, if you’re an agency client or an agency escort, and you know someone in your midst is being r—-, then report it.

If reporting a rape you know about to police is controversial, that’s fucked up and demonic.

 

[Lunaseraphim]

You’re right, I haven’t been raped. But if I had any knowledge you or anyone was raped in a room right next to me, I would immediately go the police regardless of consequences (at least I’d like to think I would).

I’d hope I wouldn’t say, they may not believe me, I may be asked too many questions etc. I’d hope I would.

Maybe there is something getting lost in translation here, but I’m clearly saying, if you’re an agency client or an agency escort, and you know someone in your midst is being r—-, then report it.

There are countless scenarios you aren't thinking above. I highly doubt someone was raped "in front of someone" in this case. If a woman you know told you she was raped by a good friend of yours would you believe her? Would you go to LE? If a local young girl told you that your adult son was molesting her, would you go to LE? If a provider here said one of your merb buddies is a boundary pusher will you believe her or him?

Most people respond to abuse with disbelief. This entire thread is a proof of this. Combine that with other factors. Being a sex worker, being marginalized, being poor, having health issues etc are all contributing factors to someone not being believed.

And the police often does not care about sexual assaults as much as you think they do. If you haven't been raped you don't know what it's like to go to loved ones let alone authorities and be laughed at or dismissed or further abused and dragged through the mud

 

[LeDodo]

It wasn't the case with the Clementine story though. He literally had a letter written to her in the envelope with the money. He didn't think she would come with him, so he intended to leave the letter, the money, and leave.

No, the point here is how did he find her. When you read the story from the article it sounds like he "stumbled" on it by accident.

TBH I don't think that agencies websites have paid advertisement that will make it pop up out of nowhere (maybe except on a place like MERB) like on FB.

Even if you try to Google agency, escort, it's not even on the first results.

When you listen to her radio interview, she is just saying she tried to give signs and her parents knew something was wrong and then her father arrive at her incall.

The point here is her father might have been seeing escorts and found out her daughter has suddenly appeared on the roster ...

 

[Lunaseraphim]

No, the point here is how did he find her. When you read the story from the article it sounds like he "stumbled" on it by accident.

TBH I don't think that agencies websites have paid advertisement that will make it pop up out of nowhere (maybe except on a place like MERB) like on FB.

Even if you try to Google agency, escort, it's not even on the first results.

When you listen to her radio interview, she is just saying she tried to give signs and her parents knew something was wrong and then her father arrive at her incall.

The point here is her father might have been seeing escorts and found out her daughter has suddenly appeared on the roster ...

One thing to be taken away from the interview is how naive about the industry and easily manipulated this girl was. It's very likely her father was seeing escorts and discovered her that way. I think it's easy to dismiss her by saying "come on she should have known she would have to have sex with men" but to me it just seems that she was very sheltered. She even mentions in the interview that she wasn't a popular girl and didn't have many friends.

When I was 19 I knew nothing about sex work.. times were different too. I remember the era she's talking about. Sugaring and stripping were very glamorized in the 2010s. I was no longer a teenager but I knew younger girls who were completely oblivious about it or got into it because they had a different idea of what it would be like.

 

[EagerBeaver]

The point here is her father might have been seeing escorts and found out her daughter has suddenly appeared on the roster ...

This reminds me that two married friends of mine, both of whom were active paying members on the Seeking Arrangement website, discovered that the daughter of one of them was a SB on the website. The one who was a friend of the father and knew the daughter recognized her on the website. He then told her father, his friend, who then confronted the daughter and made her delete her profile. I heard about this from the friend who "ratted out" the other friend's daughter. I found there to be a lot of hypocrisy in this, even though these guys are friends of mine. I felt sorry for the daughter, whom I didn't know and never met, for being "ousted" from the website by 2 men in their 40s who are themselves active participants and members in the website (while cheating on their wives and the daughter's mother). However I kept my opinions to myself.

 

[RobertNYC]

There are countless scenarios you aren't thinking above. I highly doubt someone was raped "in front of someone" in this case. If a woman you know told you she was raped by a good friend of yours would you believe her? Would you go to LE? If a local young girl told you that your adult son was molesting her, would you go to LE? If a provider here said one of your merb buddies is a boundary pusher will you believe her or him?

Most people respond to abuse with disbelief. This entire thread is a proof of this. Combine that with other factors. Being a sex worker, being marginalized, being poor, having health issues etc are all contributing factors to someone not being believed.

And the police often does not care about sexual assaults as much as you think they do. If you haven't been raped you don't know what it's like to go to loved ones let alone authorities and be laughed at or dismissed or further abused and dragged through the mud

There are countless scenarios you aren't thinking above. I highly doubt someone was raped "in front of someone" in this case. If a woman you know told you she was raped by a good friend of yours would you believe her? Would you go to LE? If a local young girl told you that your adult son was molesting her, would you go to LE? If a provider here said one of your merb buddies is a boundary pusher will you believe her or him?

Most people respond to abuse with disbelief. This entire thread is a proof of this. Combine that with other factors. Being a sex worker, being marginalized, being poor, having health issues etc are all contributing factors to someone not being believed.

And the police often does not care about sexual assaults as much as you think they do. If you haven't been raped you don't know what it's like to go to loved ones let alone authorities and be laughed at or dismissed or further abused and dragged through the mud

Well you’re conflating a transactional business with date rape among two friends whom I know.

In your example I would speak with my friend and encourage my female friend to go to police if credible. An important distinction is that the relationship here is not contingent upon her livelihood. Again, it’s important to do the right thing acting in charity, justice and caution. Give the benefit of the doubt but grounded in charity, not naïveté.

I understand that police look down upon escorts and LE and family may not believe allegations. That’s why it’s even more crucial for those with knowledge to assist and go to LE on the victim’s behalf when he or she (other escorts) have knowledge of abuse.

 

[RobertNYC]

This reminds me that two married friends of mine, both of whom were active paying members on the Seeking Arrangement website, discovered that the daughter of one of them was a SB on the website. The one who was a friend of the father and knew the daughter recognized her on the website. He then told her father, his friend, who then confronted the daughter and made her delete her profile. I heard about this from the friend who "ratted out" the other friend's daughter. I found there to be a lot of hypocrisy in this, even though these guys are friends of mine. I felt sorry for the daughter, whom I didn't know and never met, for being "ousted" from the website by 2 men in their 40s who are themselves active participants and members in the website (while cheating on their wives and the daughter's mother). However I kept my opinions to myself.

OMG. Similar story with friends going to strip clubs.

 

[LeDodo]

One thing to be taken away from the interview is how naive about the industry and easily manipulated this girl was. It's very likely her father was seeing escorts and discovered her that way. I think it's easy to dismiss her by saying "come on she should have known she would have to have sex with men" but to me it just seems that she was very sheltered. She even mentions in the interview that she wasn't a popular girl and didn't have many friends.

When I was 19 I knew nothing about sex work.. times were different too. I remember the era she's talking about. Sugaring and stripping were very glamorized in the 2010s. I was no longer a teenager but I knew younger girls who were completely oblivious about it or got into it because they had a different idea of what it would be like.

Yes. She did mention the glamour like the gifts, travel around sugaring attracted her hence her registration on the the SD website.
And (unfortunately) a SB told her she could be a SB without having sex.

That's why it's important to have sharings about the good and the bad. Then you're the one to decide if you accept it or not.

 

[Lunaseraphim]

Yes. She did mention the glamour like the gifts, travel around sugaring attracted her hence her registration on the the SD website.
And (unfortunately) a SB told her she could be a SB without having sex.

That's why it's important to have sharings about the good and the bad. Then you're the one to decide if you accept it or not.

That's the thing. Also "the bad" is why we have to fight for decriminalization and call out this behavior and talk about it openly. Many people are in this business for financial reasons. Many young women would not have been able to leave the industry like Clementine did.

Many of us had horrible experiences in our beginnings but we kept going and it eventually paid off. I know for a lot of my colleagues that meant going indy or doing a different type of sex work.

 

[Lunaseraphim]

Well you’re conflating a transactional business with date rape among two friends whom I know.

In your example I would speak with my friend and encourage my female friend to go to police if credible. An important distinction is that the relationship here is not contingent upon her livelihood. Again, it’s important to do the right thing acting in charity, justice and caution. Give the benefit of the doubt but grounded in charity, not naïveté.

I understand that police look down upon escorts and LE and family may not believe allegations. That’s why it’s even more crucial for those with knowledge to assist and go to LE on the victim’s behalf when he or she (other escorts) have knowledge of abuse.

A business transaction doesn't negate consent... And you're putting all the responsibility on providers. No clients will ever report anything to the police. I've had clients tell me they knew some places has minors working for them or that they now only saw indies because providers confided in them about abuse they are experiencing. I don't blame these clients for not going to the police as they could get arrested just for being clients.

Also a lot of different forms of abuse are extremely hard to prove and it will lead nowhere to report them. In this case the police is using these testimonies to shut down an escort agency. It's usually "pimping" that ends up being the charge.. not rape, coercion. Etc.

I just wish an organization like Stella was here to talk at my place because I'm out of words here, this is going around in circles

 

[skarsga]

There are countless ways the father could have found out. Only one is that he was a prospective client. Could also have overheard a conversation,tipped off by third party, or maybe got suspicious of big cash influx.

Is sad that the woman felt trapped and did not have a support system where she felt like she could get help. Sad that our society blames and shames victims, even after "me too".
I think an added component is that Crime against sw is viewed by a large segment of our society as "just desserts".

 

[Georgy07]

It's also up to men not to rape, coerce and abuse women by taking advantage of certain systems. Cops don't always tell the truth. I have civilian friends who reported rape to the police and were not taken seriously. One of my friends went through a horribly traumatic process only to have the case dropped. It took me a week of online research to find out who her rapist was and to find other victims who didn't want to get involved because they were scared or didn't want to go through more trauma.

It's incredibly traumatic to report abuse and rape. It's not hard to understand that.

Well, technically, the moment you pay someone for sex it is a kind of ''class abuse'' where you use your economical power to use the body of someone that is systemically oppressed by the context of its state of class inferiority. The only way you can really be ok with this is because you would be alienated by your class consciousness as a member of the proletariat.

 

[Glyscore]

This reminds me that two married friends of mine, both of whom were active paying members on the Seeking Arrangement website, discovered that the daughter of one of them was a SB on the website. The one who was a friend of the father and knew the daughter recognized her on the website. He then told her father, his friend, who then confronted the daughter and made her delete her profile. I heard about this from the friend who "ratted out" the other friend's daughter. I found there to be a lot of hypocrisy in this, even though these guys are friends of mine. I felt sorry for the daughter, whom I didn't know and never met, for being "ousted" from the website by 2 men in their 40s who are themselves active participants and members in the website (while cheating on their wives and the daughter's mother). However I kept my opinions to myself.

This hobby is riddle in hypocrisy lol. We have to admit it. How many man here would be okay for their Daughter if they had one to be an SP? Hmmmm

 

[RobertNYC]

A business transaction doesn't negate consent... And you're putting all the responsibility on providers. No clients will ever report anything to the police. I've had clients tell me they knew some places has minors working for them or that they now only saw indies because providers confided in them about abuse they are experiencing. I don't blame these clients for not going to the police as they could get arrested just for being clients.

Also a lot of different forms of abuse are extremely hard to prove and it will lead nowhere to report them. In this case the police is using these testimonies to shut down an escort agency. It's usually "pimping" that ends up being the charge.. not rape, coercion. Etc.

I just wish an organization like Stella was here to talk at my place because I'm out of words here, this is going around in circles

I need to be off to other things, but I feel like we’re talking in circles. Parting thoughts:

Rape should be reported when it occurs, wherever it occurs.

Who among us is putting all responsibility on providers to report? Can you show me that part? I’m saying it’s on everyone who knows a rape occurred. You disagree?

A business transaction certainly doesn’t negate consent, but how you approach a friend who has been raped is a much different context and even set of emotions. I’d hope you could agree with that. I hope. If not, we’ve all been reduced to AI entities.

Don’t ever say, please, no client would ever report rape. This client would regardless of consequences.

 

[Lunaseraphim]

Well, technically, the moment you pay someone for sex it is a kind of ''class abuse'' where you use your economical power to use the body of someone that is systemically oppressed by the context of its state of class inferiority. The only way you can really be ok with this is because you would be alienated by your class consciousness as a member of the proletariat.

I disagree with that personally. I see what you mean, but in a lot of cases it isn't true. If I put up an ad and a respectful client who is nice to me books me, I don't think he is abusing his power.

What is an abuse of power is when a client sees that a provider is desperate for money and pushes her to do things she doesn't want to do or refuses to pay fully.
But you are not abusing anyone by paying a provider for sex who has the ability to refuse clients and to choose the type of services she wants to offer.

I need to be off to other things, but I feel like we’re talking in circles. Parting thoughts:

Rape should be reported when it occurs, wherever it occurs.

Who among us is putting all responsibility on providers to report. Can you show me that part? I’m saying it’s on everyone who knows a rape occurred.

A business transaction certainly doesn’t negate consent, but how you approach a friend who has been raped is a much different context and even set of emotions. I’d hope you could agree with that. I hope.

Don’t ever say, please, no client would ever report rape. This client would regardless of consequences.

I'm glad you feel that way and that you want people to suffer the consequences of their actions.. However hear me out. If a provider told you that a Merb member raped her, good to know that you will report him. What you don't seem to know is that if you did report him, if they do take it seriously and want to charge him not for assault but use that as an excuse to charge him for paying an escort, this provider will be retraumatized and put through a horrible process.

 

[Georgy07]

I disagree with that personally. I see what you mean, but I think that is not necessarily true. If I put up an ad and a respectful client who is nice to me books me, I don't think he is abusing his power.

What is an abuse of power is when a client sees that a provider is desperate for money and pushes her to do things she doesn't want to do or refuses to pay fully. But you are not abusing anyone by paying a provider for sex who has the ability to refuse clients and to choose the type of services she wants to offer.


I'm glad you feel that way and that you want people to suffer the consequences of their actions.. However hear me out. If a provider told you that a Merb member raped her, good to know that you will report him. What you don't seem to know is that if you did report him, if they do take it seriously and want to charge him not for assault but use that as an excuse to charge him for paying an escort, this provider will be retraumatized and put through a horrible process.

Well, would you do the same if you were a millionaire ? That's the question.