Pre-divorce advice

[Gobroncosgo]

The best advice given is to contact a lawyer who specializes in family law & divorce. And while you don't have to pay through the nose for the top dog, don't go cheap here - this is your children's & your future. From what you've said the likelihood you need a good lawyer is very high, given the state of your relationship (not what you have or haven't done, it's the likelihood of divorce here).

Any other advice isn't nearly as important. Good luck.

 

[Jamesrenard44]

JamesRenard:

Ah oui? You saw OFTEN a father lose the garde of his children because he was seeing escorts?

I would be more than interested to see those judgements and when & where they have been done.

I never heard about that personally.

I saw often a jugde getting uncomfortable with the fact that the guy she's other women, including SW, strippers and mistress. Sorry, you won't get that in a written judgment, it's pretty obvious why but you'll see that it we'll have an effect if the jugde have to take position. No, the father won't loose custody but I might not get the chance to have a 50/50 custody. Anyhow, I have my experiences, you have yours, all I'm saying is to be open with your lawyer, that's all.

 

[Jamesrenard44]

Disclosing activity to your lawyer should be covered by lawyer-client confidentiality.
It does not have to come out in court unless the wife brings it up. And she will have to have proof, or at least a reasonable suspicion.

I totally agree, I'm not saying to bring it hope to court. I'm saying to disclose it to your lawyer so if it comes up, I'll be prepared

 

[Maria Divina]

I saw often a jugde getting uncomfortable with the fact that the guy she's other women, including SW, strippers and mistress. Sorry, you won't get that in a written judgment, it's pretty obvious why but you'll see that it we'll have an effect if the jugde have to take position. No, the father won't loose custody but I might not get the chance to have a 50/50 custody. Anyhow, I have my experiences, you have yours, all I'm saying is to be open with your lawyer, that's all.

Ok, so what I am understanding presently with your answer, is that's more of a feeling/perception that you got, that straight facts. Or maybe, you are having outdating infos?

You know, there are other reasons someone cannot have his/her children with him/her. That could be simply the impossibility based on the kind of schedule of work they are having.

Anyway, during our days, what I was saying for my part is, it has to be proven that you are a very incompetent & dangerous person for your kids, in Quebec province, to have a very limited access to them.

So OR71 shouldn't having fear about the fact that he met escorts, IF ever the ex-to-be have a clue. Because meeting escorts is not anything to do with your parental capacities. (except if you are a sexacolic, and don't have any money left, and that's another total story)

JamesRenard: My post was intended to make him relax and slow down any anxiety he could get about this point (as I felt it was possible) And I think still is important that he knows that, so that's why I come back and I am taking the time to explain it again.
Please, don't take it personally, my intention is to totally help him. Because with what he is living at home, THAT'S ALREADY HELL ON EARTH FOR HIM, in a sense.

 

[EagerBeaver]

I am not really qualified to opine on the legal aspect of it but someone I work with very closely got divorced from his second wife under very similar circumstances to what OR-71 described. This was around 15 years ago. The coworker's second wife was diagnosed with an obsessive compulsive disorder which I don't believe was ever treated. My coworker married her I think due to the physical attraction as she was a hot little number 20 years younger than him with a phenomenal ass. Well that marriage was a train wreck from day 1 and lasted 6 months. She would call the office and my coworker would barricade himself in his office and there would be a tremendous fight and drama on an almost daily basis until one day he went home and she left the house and moved out and he was served with a divorce complaint.

At that time he and I were the two key guys in our business. For about 2 months he was in a catatonic state, could not function at work, lost 30 pounds and I had to run the office, almost single handed for that time period and just keep our asses afloat. He finally snapped out of it, went on some dating websites and after dating a few woman, he finally got lucky with his 3rd marriage. He is still married to wife number 3 and they have two young kids in addition to his kids from wife #1. But wife #2 that was just a painful train wreck of a marriage and I saw the end from the beginning. But persistence paid off with him. In wife #3 he finally met his match, not as hot as wife #2 but a hell of a lot smarter and an intellectual peer of my coworker. Plus a good mother to his kids.

Moral of story: if you don't succeed try again and again. Third time is the charm. Or third time is 3 strikes and you are out.

 

[OR71]

Thanks all -

To clarify, my original question was definitely: should I indeed disclose all facts to my own lawyer, who will of course be bound by attorney/client privilege (since none of what I've done constitutes child endangerment in any way).

I would never willingly introduce this in court, given the stigma that unfortunately persists today.

I had a slight concern that some legal clients may have felt they were treated 'differently' by their own lawyer after making a disclosure of this nature. I have reasonable grounds to believe this would not come out, but nothing is ever 100% certain.

 

[OR71]

I am not really qualified to opine on the legal aspect of it but someone I work with very closely got divorced from his second wife under very similar circumstances to what OR-71 described. This was around 15 years ago. The coworker's second wife was diagnosed with an obsessive compulsive disorder which I don't believe was ever treated. My coworker married her I think due to the physical attraction as she was a hot little number 20 years younger than him with a phenomenal ass. Well that marriage was a train wreck from day 1 and lasted 6 months. She would call the office and my coworker would barricade himself in his office and there would be a tremendous fight and drama on an almost daily basis until one day he went home and she left the house and moved out and he was served with a divorce complaint.

At that time he and I were the two key guys in our business. For about 2 months he was in a catatonic state, could not function at work, lost 30 pounds and I had to run the office, almost single handed for that time period and just keep our asses afloat. He finally snapped out of it, went on some dating websites and after dating a few woman, he finally got lucky with his 3rd marriage. He is still married to wife number 3 and they have two young kids in addition to his kids from wife #1. But wife #2 that was just a painful train wreck of a marriage and I saw the end from the beginning. But persistence paid off with him. In wife #3 he finally met his match, not as hot as wife #2 but a hell of a lot smarter and an intellectual peer of my coworker. Plus a good mother to his kids.

Moral of story: if you don't succeed try again and again. Third time is the charm. Or third time is 3 strikes and you are out.

Encouraging - thanks for sharing!

 

[EagerBeaver]

The attorney client privilege is sacrosanct and the only exception to it is when the client threatens to kill or seriously injure a third person in which case the attorney must disclose to authorities. Clients should be warned not to make any such threats but all other communications are absolutely privileged.

 

[OR71]

Ok, so what I am understanding presently with your answer, is that's more of a feeling/perception that you got, that straight facts. Or maybe, you are having outdating infos?

You know, there are other reasons someone cannot have his/her children with him/her. That could be simply the impossibility based on the kind of schedule of work they are having.

Anyway, during our days, what I was saying for my part is, it has to be proven that you are a very incompetent & dangerous person for your kids, in Quebec province, to have a very limited access to them.

So OR71 shouldn't having fear about the fact that he met escorts, IF ever the ex-to-be have a clue. Because meeting escorts is not anything to do with your parental capacities. (except if you are a sexacolic, and don't have any money left, and that's another total story)

JamesRenard: My post was intended to make him relax and slow down any anxiety he could get about this point (as I felt it was possible) And I think still is important that he knows that, so that's why I come back and I am taking the time to explain it again.
Please, don't take it personally, my intention is to totally help him. Because with what he is living at home, THAT'S ALREADY HELL ON EARTH FOR HIM, in a sense.

Thanks Maria,

I agree with you that I have to make my peace with the small possibility that my escort meetings could be disclosed - it's something that I did (and in most ways do not regret) and I have to own that. I think the important thing in a legal case will be to keep control of the narrative, which can easily be twisted either way (in court) by a good lawyer. For example:

Narrative 1: The case involves Mr. OR-71, a kind and gentle man who has always been an outstanding father and who has withstood years of emotional and sometimes physical abuse from his wife. It is well known that victims of abuse often engage in risky but rewarding behaviours such as drinking, drug use, and sex to cope with their traumatic situation. Mr. OR understands the implications of his occasionally unhealthy responses to this difficult saga, but has always put the welfare of his children first.

Narrative 2: The case involves Mr. OR-71, a selfish and irresponsible man who has spent money seeing escorts while callously ignoring his wife's emotional needs. Mr. OR's impulsive behaviour demonstrates his unreliability and immaturity, and his willingness to misappropriate funds from the family income. Mrs. OR is currently being tested for STDs and the court will be advised of the results. It is reprehensible that Mr. OR would jeopardize his wife's health in this way, calling into question his fitness as a parent.

Obviously it will help my lawyer steer things to Narrative 1 if he knows all the facts beforehand. Regarding narrative 2, there has been little physical intimacy in my marriage and I did all I could to avoid transmitting anything to my wife. The risk of this is not zero, but very low. I have made a point of getting tested, including after rare instances of intimacy with my wife, and the results have always been negative.

That being said, having a wife introduce a positive STD result in a divorce case could very well be construed as evidence of reckless behaviour (I suppose a guy who allows this to happen rather deserves it).

O

 

[Maria Divina]

OR71,

If I may ask, what do you fear exactly about your eventual divorce?

 

[EagerBeaver]

I don't think divorces shake out like you think. What is usually biggest issue is money and splitting up assets. Connecticut is a community property state meaning what you had before the marriage you keep, and what you earned after marriage gets divided with her.

You seeing escorts would only possibly be relevant to child custody. However it's the best interests of the child that is considered and there is no such thing as a perfect father or mother.

Your narratives and the reality of divorce are 2 different things. You should speak to a divorce attorney in Quebec and stop the pointless uneducated ruminations. Get legal advice now.

 

[jalimon]

I don't think divorces shake out like you think. What is usually biggest issue is money and splitting up assets. Connecticut is a community asset state meaning what you had before the marriage you keep what you earned after marriage gets divided with her.

You seeing escorts would only possibly be relevant to child custody. However it's the best interests of the child that is considered and there is no such thing as a perfect father or mother.

Your narratives and the reality of divorce are 2 different things. You should speak to a divorce attorney in Quebec and stop the pointless uneducated ruminations. Get legal advice now.

Absolutey agree here.

Make sure your attorney knows that you suspect untreaded mental disorders and get advice on that first. I really doubt a good attorney will begin any kind of action against a mental sick person as its surely a lose/lose situation.

 

[Maria Divina]

I don't think divorces shake out like you think. What is usually biggest issue is money and splitting up assets.

Exactly my thoughts.

You seeing escorts would only possibly be relevant to child custody.

Like I already said, in Quebec province, it might not interfere anything. (plus, she probably doesn't know at all.... )

Your narratives and the reality of divorce are 2 different things. You should speak to a divorce attorney in Quebec and stop the pointless uneducated ruminations. Get legal advice now.

Yes, people divorcing in our days often don't even go in front of a judge and everything is happening between the 2 advocates.

So, that's why I asked what is his fear?

Because fears are often just wrong perceptions of the future.

Divorce is a bad time to go thru, but "this too shall past". It looks definitively worst that what it is.

 

[OR71]

OR71,

If I may ask, what do you fear exactly about your eventual divorce?

That, Maria, is a very astute question. Some of my fears are probably neurotic, and others might be instilled by what I now consider to be years of abuse (being treated as worthless, not worthy of having opinions or preferences or goals).

The list of things I fear in a divorce includes:

• the fear that my wife will go berserk and harm herself, the kids, or me
• the knowledge that she has an unbelievable ability to blow my guilt/shame/stress levels through the roof for even really innocuous transgressions, and this instinctive terror is attached to every possible skeleton (big or small) that might possibly come out of my closet in a divorce
• the sentimental attachment to our family home, and the loss of security to my kids who may be forced to move (materially we have a very nice existence, but it only works with two incomes)
• fear of change
• fear of the emotional impact on my kids
• fear and shame that everybody will find out what an emotional train wreck I have been over the last 5-10 years
• the possibility of another man taking over my role as father
• the worry that all of my complaints about the marriage are "in my head" and that my wife is right, the problem really is me

The things I fear if I don't divorce include:

• the fear that my wife will go berserk and harm herself, the kids, or me
• concern that the only example my kids have for relationships is extremely unhealthy
• the fact that my kids are already having emotional and behavioural problems that are consistent with exposure to domestic violence (keeping in mind that it's largely psychological terror in my home)
• the fact that every time I assert myself leads to intense emotional conflict that feels as though it could lead to violence
• the fact that I have totally lost my sense of self, and no longer even remember my own preferences, goals, opinions
• the fact that the contortions I have to go through to "keep the peace" have left me exhausted, emotionally broken, and are affecting my health and professional life
• the fact that I have lost most of my friends, have no social life, and have lost touch with my family (my wife dislikes all of them and seems to find them threatening)
• the fact that any time I try to pursue an interest or hobby, she tries to crush me like a bug
• the possibility that one day I'll be 65 and wonder why the hell I spent my life like this

Sorry if this is all a bit melodramatic. Your question is a really good one - what am I afraid of...

 

[OR71]

I don't think divorces shake out like you think. What is usually biggest issue is money and splitting up assets. Connecticut is a community property state meaning what you had before the marriage you keep, and what you earned after marriage gets divided with her.

You seeing escorts would only possibly be relevant to child custody. However it's the best interests of the child that is considered and there is no such thing as a perfect father or mother.

Your narratives and the reality of divorce are 2 different things. You should speak to a divorce attorney in Quebec and stop the pointless uneducated ruminations. Get legal advice now.

Thanks I have a legal consult tomorrow. You are right, of course (about the rumination).

 

[OR71]

Absolutey agree here.

Make sure your attorney knows that you suspect untreaded mental disorders and get advice on that first. I really doubt a good attorney will begin any kind of action against a mental sick person as its surely a lose/lose situation.

I'm mainly seeing the attorney to understand my rights and obligations, and to figure out how to get my affairs in order "in case". The next step for me is not to initiate the divorce, but to start asserting myself and protecting my kids better without irrational fears of legal or other consequences. If I do this and she adapts in a positive way, that's great. If she becomes violent or orders me out of the house, I need to know the "right thing to do" based on professional legal advice. I have heard that the first thing most family law attorneys say is "don't get a divorce".

We have already done various types of couple and family therapy, and it was a disaster (the therapist refused to work with us due mainly to my wife's attitude). My kids are in therapy, and their therapists know what is going on with her, but it is always just shy of "reportable".

I have really, really tried to do all the loving and supportive things one could think of but have consistently been met with derision and spite. Oh, and this started long before I ever saw an escort.

 

[EagerBeaver]

• the fear that my wife will go berserk and harm herself, the kids, or me
  ..

• 
  
  OR71,
  
  This should be on the list of things to fear if you do not divorce her, not on the list to fear if you do divorce her, because usually a divorce effects child custody rights.
  
  Your statement reminds of a case I handled over 20 years ago. Just a disclaimer: although I am an attorney I do not handle divorces any more and I am not licensed in Quebec nor know anything about Quebec divorce law. I did two divorce cases over 20 years ago, both for male clients. The first committed suicide during the pendency of the proceedings, I think due to extreme depression over his wife filing for divorce, but who really knows. The second one is the one this statement reminded me of.
  
  The client had been married approximately 15 years, was in love with his wife, was an extremely nice guy who by all appearances had a good job and was providing for his family. He had two daughters with the wife, probably in the range of 8-10 years old at that time, and one much younger child. He came to me and told me that since the wife had the third child she had engaged in consistent crazy behavior, which included waking up in the middle of the night, taking the children to destinations unknown, and him then getting a phone call from the State Police of another State, saying they had caught the wife speeding 90 miles per hour wih their children, that she seemed delirious, and that they had put her in custody (but in a hotel as I recall) because she seemed mentally unwell and the cops apparently didn't know what to do with the kids.
  
  He then came to me and said he didn't want to see this happen again. He feared for his children's lives. He sought my advice. I told him he had to file a divorce complaint and simultaneously seek cusody of the children pendente liite, which basically means he gets temporary custody pending the divorce. My client said to me, FUCK NO, I am not divorcing her, I love her, yada yada yada, I want you to seek a temporary ex parte restraining order, no divorce, prevent her from having custody of the kids. I told the client that ain't gonna fly, you gotta divorce her. He said no, no, no, I love her, I love her, I love her.
  
  So we get our hearing on the ex parte restraining order. I put my client on the stand for 45 minutes and he told the Judge the above. The Judge denied the request, saying that he could not rule on custody without a divorce complaint before the courtas it was violative of her parental and constitutional rights. The following day, the client came to my office and paid me a retainer to file the divorce complaint. He cried during our meeting and told me he loved his wife and he was only doing this for the children.
  
  After the divorce complaint was filed, I saw his wife in court for the first and only time. She was, at that time, unrepresented by counsel. After I addressed the court, she got up and began speaking. She was clearly an insane and delusional person. She cited passages from the bible, made incoherent and delirious sounding statements, and insulted the judge as well as took the Lord's name in vain. It was a complete disaster and embarrassment. My client was ordered to take full custody of the kids pendente lite.
  
  About a week later, the woman's own family had her involuntarily committed to a mental health institution, well known for its treatment of criminally insane persons. As far as I know, she never got out. My client got his divorce and custody of the kids.
  
  During the pendency of the divorce, I did some research. My client told me his wife never showed any signs of mental illness until after she bore their third child in her late 30s. I read some materials suggesting post partum depression could actually go into full blown mental illness. It seems like the 3rd pregnancy broke the woman's sanity.
  
  It was very sad, because my client told me that up until the 3rd pregnancy they had a wonderful 15 years together, she was a wonderful wife and mother and he was very, very much in love with her and cried the day he paid me a divorce retainer.
  
  Not sure why I forgot about this case but your statement above reminded me of it.

 

[OR71]

OR71,

This should be on the list of things to fear if you do not divorce her, not on the list to fear if you do divorce her, because usually a divorce effects child custody rights.

...

Thanks EB,

It has occurred to me that staying in this situation could be considered negligent on my part, due to the impact on the kids. The problem is that when you are beaten down emotionally, your view of reality is utterly skewed and you really end up thinking you can't live without the other person. Sounds like your client was undergoing this.

I am trying to get my facts together for this afternoon's meeting with the lawyer (who I have not yet met).

O

 

[OR71]

OR71,

...

After the divorce complaint was filed, I saw his wife in court for the first and only time. She was, at that time, unrepresented by counsel. After I addressed the court, she got up and began speaking. She was clearly an insane and delusional person. She cited passages from the bible, made incoherent and delirious sounding statements, and insulted the judge as well as took the Lord's name in vain. It was a complete disaster and embarrassment. My client was ordered to take full custody of the kids pendente lite.

...

PS my wife is not overtly crazy, and on the surface comes off as very well put together (although she has traumatized a couple of colleagues and subordinates in her work). It's really a total Jekyll & Hyde phenomenon, where behind closed doors she is incredibly controlling and prone to rages and temper tantrums if you don't give in. We have become very isolated, because I think it's extremely frustrating for her to be in public with me because she can not behave according to these impulses.

O

 

[westwoody]

EB, good story in post 37. 
The health care system is not dealing with mental health issues very well, and family breakup is one of the results.
The standard solution is for family doctors to prescribe something and come back in a few weeks. Waiting lists for specialist psychiatrists or psychologists can be months or years.
Some of our employees are on psych drugs and the effects are awful. The people balloon up from water retention and seem to be in a daze all the time. One woman has been on medication for a few years, she has gone from 5'6" and about 140 pounds to about 300 pounds. She can barely move or focus on her job. I am genuinely afraid she is going to drop dead right on the workfloor one day.
We have about 150 employees and three or four just like her.