PRISM ISSUE/Interview With NSA Whistleblower

[Merlot]

Hello all,

Merlot...Is your life really that empty?

Are you saying I should take my cue from you keeping your nose planted between the presidential cheeks for 5 years, and the next 3 you eagerly plan to keep it there. Yeah, you sure have a life.

If this is your way of looking at it "Other countries deserve to be spied on, but not Americans."
It's childish!

If this is your way of looking at it "Other countries deserve to be spied on, but not Americans."
It's childish !

Please don't let one person represent the U.S.. Some are too impulsive, reactionary, or don't care because like those in other countries, they inherently think theirs has the right to do what it wishes regardless of principle. However, I have no doubt our good German friends are spying on us too so it's crying wolf.

BTW: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-...ts-german-accent-amid-surge-of-hispanics.html

Someone should take a look at this and realize how important Germans have been to this country, still the largest single nationality for over 100 years. I'm 1/8th. Welcome to Germerika. :thumb:

Notice also how the Italians dominate the New Jersey, NY, Connecticut seaboard.

This issue on American Citizens presented by Prism is nothing compare to what's coming from this spying the EU !

It will have profound effects on the futur and the world's economy !

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Pollard

People are going to be upset about the spying by the U.S., and governments will posture over it to soothe those feelings as well as display their real anger. However, everyone spies on everyone. Governments know this even if the average person mindlessly contributing to each governments ability to spy as they chace after every piece of tech they can get their hands on somehow misses (or acts like they miss) what their tech lust contributes to. It's really just ridiculous when INFORMATION is the key to everything that people still can act like they live in an insular utopia where their rights are absolute. Of course every country is spying. If anything happened the governments didn't know about or didn't prevent, the same people protesting and screaming about their rights would be out for blood if the government missed any pertinent information to prevent tragedies, as with 911 and the Boston Bombing. Oh oh oh, WHY didn't you know Mr. Government??? Heads will roll for that.

There is no better illustration of the depth of spying and the reasons for it than the Pollard incident where one of the U. S. closest allies, Israel which relies so much on the U.S. to survive, still bought classified stolen U.S. material. If they would do it who wouldn't.

In the end all the protest about spying is hypocrisy because people want their rights and complete protection too. Spying isn't right, but people should realize what it takes (spying) to get what you are demanding (100% protection). If people expect their governments to be selective about which country or person they should be spying on, then people (marathon bombers) or so-called friendly countries (Israel) will slip by their protectors.

Sorry, but it's an expedient fact of life.

Cheers,

Merlot

 

[Gentle]

Everyone spies on everyone - including allies spying on each other. Countries complain about being spied upon to placate their own citizens.
At most, when a complaint is made, the spies change their modus operandi. It is naive to suppose that they stop spying.

The problem is not even spying and this is where this topic make a difference between the children and people involved in the real security issue.
Try to read the complete work of Anthony Cave Brown for instance.

The problem is how you do it and everything you do to never get caught at doing it.

But worse, it's when you accuse everyone else of doing it and make threats about it.

Thus the rebound !

It leaves the door wide open to for everyone else to have a strong 'reason' to do it.
And the U.S. will have to STFU if there's no excuses made.

 

[Gentle]

I would again note the historical record shows that if we did a better job spying on the Germans in the 1930s millions and millions of lives could have been saved but you will never hear the EU talking about that.

1st-We're talking about the EU (not just Germany)
2nd-We are not in a pre-war scenario with EU.
3rd-The US and the EU are in the midst of a free trade agreement.
4th-The EU Germany is the 5th largest economic partner with US, yet with other countries in EU it becomes the 4th. (more than Japan)

The REASON (which you didn't understand) why the Germains are upset is exactly the same one you did mentioned which is they had enough of people spying on them.
You should have read the article since it is clearly stating that they suffered a lot against the Gestapo and Stasi later on and they don't want this sh!t to start all over.

Plus, you seem to forget completely that it is not about spying only one country, it's about spying on the EU and getting caught at.
It's completely different.

It is a very, very bad move at this moment in time.

Since there is a big chunk missing of what happened before and during WWII in your assessment about spying.
Now lets break down your assumption that spying on the Germans before WWII would have saved millions of lives.

England was spying on the Germans. It didn't prevent it.
England did everything to draw the US in to help stop it.
The US didn't want to get involve even after Germany sunk a US ship.

The US made a very good job at spying Japan but That didn't prevent the war with Japan did it ? Nop !

Plus, whatever the Nazis where doing, was wide open for everyone to see.
Further more, Europe just got out of WWI knowing very well indeed that sooner or later it could re-start all over.
Why do you think France went on the biggest expansion of military expense in 'defense' in it's history ?

Poland and Jews warned many countries who didn't want to get involved despite whatever was happening and even turned away their refugees.

As for never hearing the EU talking about WWII, you just have to live on another planet and have no idea how much they suffered.

 

[EagerBeaver]

Snowden Hammers Obama Administration

http://www.cnn.com/2013/07/01/politics/snowden-asylum/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

 

[Gentle]

...However, I have no doubt our good German friends are spying on us too so it's crying wolf. Merlot

Again, spying is not the issue.
It's the way you do it and the timing at getting caught at doing it while making threats to other nations about it.

You would have to be a real moron to think that countries like Germany with a bigger and longer history of spying than the US wouldn't do it.
The real issue here is the timing which will play against the US once again and will add up to many bad moves over the course of this post-cold war era.

Now, everyone can say about the US complaining in the futur on spying and terrorism (since the US implied it was the reason for) that it is crying wolf !

The US should immediatly (and I'm pretty sure they are working their a$$ in Washington for) not only stop this way of spying but give strong reasons why (other than terrorism) it was done and stopped.

Anyway, you'll see as the events will eventually unfold in the futur.

One simple fact remains that this Snowden is now linked to the wikileaks episode w/Assange and it's getting this issue all back in the center of the news all over the globe.

So seriously, if you think that American citizens getting upset about their gov. will have a bigger impact on the welfare of this nation than whatever implication worldwide this 'other' bad move will... then you probably believe in Santa.

The level of brainwashing about fear is so huge that not even the lives of so many kids makes a difference anymore.

 

[Gentle]

Thus missing the point which is not spying at other countries but all of it's citizens.

Further more on this in Speigel.

"With evidence indicating that the NSA bugged EU offices and summits in Brussels attended by world leaders, the fight on terror is no longer a valid excuse. Luxembourg's Foreign Minister Jean Asselborn, President of the European Commission Jose Manuel Barroso and European Parliament President Martin Schulz don't seriously pose a threat to anyone."

"The Americans' colossal spying operation smacks of totalitarianism. SPIEGEL has viewed an internal NSA presentation which lays out a vision of "Information Superiority": a worldwide dominance of information networks. This vision was drawn up several years ago and it seems safe to assume that the US has come a significant step closer to implementing it since then. In it, the NSA openly refers to Germany as both a friend and a foe. "We can, and often do, target the signals of most third party foreign partners," it boasts.

The NSA's totalitarian ambition regarding information-gathering does not affect just states and authorities. It does not affect just businesses. It affects us all. It even affects those who think they have nothing to hide. A constitutional state cannot allow it. None of us can allow it."

The US should be able to understand this. Amendments to the US Constitution, such as the First Amendment guaranteeing freedom of speech and freedom of the press, are treated as inviolable legal rights.

The NSA is striving for "Information Superiority." What any constitutional state must now strive for is "Information Sovereignty" -- a return to self-determination and its basic right to decide itself what happens to its data. Edward Snowden's allegations can help this happen. They are in the public interest. In a video interview, he made a statement explaining why he became a whistleblower. "I do not want to live in a world where everything I do and say is recorded," he said.

There you go.

We now have come full circle on this.

Focusing on Snowden instead of the effect worldwide will cost the world a lot in the futur.

 

[Merlot]

Hello all,

Again, spying is not the issue.

The real issue here is the timing which will play against the US once again and will add up to many bad moves over the course of this post-cold war era.

Now, everyone can say about the US complaining in the futur on spying and terrorism (since the US implied it was the reason for) that it is crying wolf !

How much history have you studied? I've read about spies from the time of the pharaohs, Joshua and the Israelites, Hittites, Assyrians, Romans, Greeks, Muslims, quite a detailed account of Middle Ages Europe and on and on and on. Two of the most common aspects are: a) every country says it's necessary for security: b) each country doing it says it's the more righteous/moral. The propaganda the U.S. has put out, the posturing, the mistakes, the failures, the misunderstandings, the threats are no different anywhere. The only difference, MAYBE, is the amount...depending on the technical capabilities of said country.

The revelations by Snowden are going to make great fodder to generate popular outrage, if one was sadly unaware or delusional enough not to have expected this was going on in the first place. There will be endless political posturing by other countries over their alleged "shock and outrage" like they are somehow innocent. But what is going to concern other countries most is...DOES OUR COUNTRY HAVE A "SNOWDEN" WHO WILL EXPOSE THAT WE ARE DOING THE SAME THING. That's what they worry about most by far out of this episode.

The US should immediatly...not only stop this way of spying but give strong reasons why (other than terrorism) it was done and stopped.

For any country to do this would be insane. You are saying give all potential domestic and foreign enemies the freedom to organize, communicate, and proceed without interference. Go blind against all threats. Don't use the most advanced technical sources that could save the same lives of those who want to have everything shut down. It's ridiculous really.

*You're angry about moral hypocrisy...well welcome to the Homo Sapiens species, whole nations are no better.

** You're angry about every person being spied on, look at all the tech YOU use...and YOU bought to enable the spying.

***You say there are millions upon millions of good and decent people who won't do any harm and should not be spied on. Well, GOOD POINT!!! Now please provide a list...a guideline...a profile...anything and/or any method that will identify any individual who should definitely be exempt FOR LIFE.

Spying is the issue because the process and character of it is the same for all nations, or organizations...the benefits of it and the possible threats from it. Singling out the biggest guy changes nothing about the same character in any of the others.

Cheers,

Merlot

 

[EagerBeaver]

Merlot, that is a very good rebuttal post to Gentle. I would have said the same thing myself but you beat me to it.

Gentle needs to see the movie "Safe House" with Denzel Washington and then go to his local coffee shop, order a triple espresso and breath deeply. Those vapors need to be inhaled.

 

[Grosbaton]

Funny thing about this is... decades ago we were saying this about the USSR...and lately about China.

So they simply found a reason (the war on terrorism) in western democracies to do what we are accusing China, were accusing Russia and way before this, the Nazis of doing.

Bah who cares..? we all know we are heading to a major clash since the world won't be able to support that many people and conflicts at the same time for long.

So they can always spy on everyone, as long as they let me in the mean time bang my favorite SPs.

Very realistic but at the same time pessimist point of view. None of us here is going to change this fucken world. But this world is not yet so fucked up to end up soon. Yet I do agree, nothing else really matter than yourself and the lady you are with...whoever she could be.

 

[Gentle]

How much history have you studied?... Merlot

More than you think & can imagine and more into what this subject is about.
Otherwise you would know what these post are about at this very moment !

In fact it's actually funny.

As for trying to avoid the facts... what is going on with this is... what we call a string !

As for breathing deeply... looks like some of you guys are now hyperventilating :lol:

 

[Gentle]

You are saying give all potential domestic and foreign enemies the freedom to organize, communicate, and proceed without interference... Merlot

See ? by drawing this conclusion on what I wrote you basically look in the opposite way of the scope !

Ever read about Bodyguard Merlot ?
I'm sure you did, but to what extent.
I'm pretty sure you know all about Ultra, the black and red ochestra... if you care to help your pal here who bings WWII in this !

Ever worked in the field ?

Then you know the string is now sowed.
It has done full circle and it will simply work by itself now.

 

[EagerBeaver]

The Pros and Cons of Taking Snowden, By Country

http://www.cnn.com/2013/07/11/world/americas/latin-america-snowden-asylum/index.html?hpt=hp_c2

 

[EagerBeaver]

Snowden To Meet With Human Rights Group

http://www.cnn.com/2013/07/12/world/europe/russia-us-snowden/index.html?hpt=hp_c2

 

[Merlot]

Ooops!!!

You are saying give all potential domestic and foreign enemies the freedom to organize, communicate, and proceed without interference

See ? by drawing this conclusion on what I wrote you basically look in the opposite way of the scope !

You're ignoring the other side, I'm looking at both.

** You're angry about every person being spied on, look at all the tech YOU use...and YOU bought to enable the spying.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fnNR5JZt4yw

If you are worried about privacy, DON'T...it doesn't exist anymore as long as you have your tech toys.

I was listening to CNN this morning. People worried about what the government is doing to spy on you have reason to be upset. However, they are misidentifying the key culprits. BUSINESS. The video link explains a lot, but also on CNN this morning was a detailed account of how businesses are using recognition software in their stores to know exactly where you are right down to the square foot and keeping all of that information too. No doubt that includes the exact moment you would be using urinal or toilet if you have your cell in your pocket.

For the Merb hobbyist it means you are transmitting the precise room and position you are in. Now remember everyone of our lady friends has a tracked cell too. It's probably illegal for companies to give out this meeting of signals to girlfriends, wives, family, employers...unless a legal reason develops to look into where you were, but the info is there. Just don't leave it on the bed; who knows if they can measure the bounce too. :eyebrows:

Good luck,

Merlot

 

[Gentle]

I'm far from ignoring the other side, and you're only looking at the obvious ones.

Keep watching CNN if you like.

You clearly don't have the same level of access my Friends have.
Sorry !

Have fun !

 

[Merlot]

You clearly don't have the same level of access my Friends have.
Sorry !

Whatever,

You and/or your friends could be privy to every piece of intelligence information there is...and it wouldn't matter for squat if you looked at that information with a slanted or closed philosophical or strategic disposition, and you clearly have a narrow predisposition. No on can disseminate information fairly and sensibly when they come to the information closed to it's potential and or truth with bias and fear.

The US should immediatly...not only stop this way of spying but give strong reasons why (other than terrorism) it was done and stopped.

Anyone who doesn't see the catastrophic error in the statement above either doesn't understand the danger, isn't trying too, or is playing a silly game. Really, you try to remove the most critical justification to slant the issue your way and you think that makes any sense??? OMG! The fact that you don't mind closing off a huge asset against terrorism or consider anti-terrorist information something to cut off because you fear other uses is dangerous thinking...unless you can justify specifically why it would be significantly better in the balance to do so.

Vraiment,

Merlot

 

[Gentle]

Whatever,

You and/or your friends....

You should know better, but... clearly don't !

Sorry Merlot but Don't Worry... I already knew !