Problem/Solution or "No Thread For You"

[eastender]

Recently Mod2 closed the "Warning for SPS Agencies: Client Caught Taping SPS This Weekend!!!" thread.Amongst the reasons given for this decision
were(as posted by Mod2) "I think everything (and in fact way too much) has been said on this subject" and "At this point the thread is getting nowhere ......closed".At this point I will not touch on other reasons given,opinions expressed or actions taken by Mod2.

I beg to strongly disagree.

IMHO the thread within a period of app. five days had identified a major issue
and had evolved within app. sixty - seven posts from identifying a critical issue to grouping opinions within the framework of a solution.

The critical issue of a client taping An SP without her consent had been identified in the initial post.Following posters condemed this action but were prudent because as mature adults they were well aware that things are not
as they seem.MERB has an on going battle with shills - a situation that is being debated in another thread but a situation that causes us to be careful when re-acting to other posted subjects.Similarly all readers and posters have been approached by bogus charities.When we question bogus charities
we do so not because we are callous and wish to see others suffer but because we do not wish to see scoundrels and parasites profit.Likewise it was proper to subject this issue to serious scrutiny.Regardless as the thread
progressed a moral imperative emerged that CONSENT was the base for such activity.

At the same time a second issue emerged - it became clear that there was a market need.Some clients wished to video tape encounters with SPS and there are SPS willing to accommodate such clients.Very often an activity that is viewed as illegal or immoral may be controlled by providing a context or framework within which it could be expressed by consenting adults.By offering such opportunities non-consentual tapings would be reduced,probably significantly.The MERB community could have used its collective expertise to debate this aspect.Specifically SPS and agencies offering such an option could have been listed as VCF = video camera friendly.The idea of written consent and post taping use could have been debated.Concerns of anonymity or identity could have been debated - the use of Batgirl type masks,temporary tattoos and other disguising techniques would have been advanced.

A baseline example and criteria for CONSENT had been advanced or borrowed
from the "street scene".This concept would have been adapted and developed by MERB members to the situation at hand.

As outlined above the aforementionned reasons invoked by Mod2 do not carry the day.The thread should have been allowed to continue and perhaps it will within the guidance and context outlined above.

Thank you for reading

 

[naughtylady]

Well said eastender! I also feel the thread was closed prematurely, if it should have been closed at all. I wanted to contribute to that thread only to discover it had already been closed (I was busy and did not check the board for 2 days). The thread brought up many interesting points, well worthy of debate and clarification.

Ronnie,
Naughtylady

 

[EagerBeaver]

Eastender,

I don't know why Mod 2 closed that thread, and I don't necessarily agree with Mod 2's decision, but that thread started out as a simple effort to induce an unidentified hobbyist who had illegally taped an encounter with an SP to surrender the tape, under threat of exposure if he did not. You have now brought up several different (albeit related) issues dealing more generally with the videotaping of encounters with SPs. Rather than refer to the closed thread which, at its inception, dealt with a much narrower issue, why not just start a new thread as you have and invite general commentary, beyond that episode? I think you have now accomplished your objective.

Also, for what it's worth, I personally found much of the commentary in the closed thread to be misogynistic, insensitive and rude, although those are not necessarily reasons to close the thread. I posted my feelings in that regard in the closed thread. I don't know if Mod 2 took my post and some other similarly disapproving posts into consideration in closing that thread. Mod 2 would have to answer that.

I believe that if an SP wishes to permit an encounter to be videotaped, an appropriate written waiver (hopefully drafted by a competent attorney) should be signed in accordance with applicable law. A list of SPs willing to sign such waivers would probably be helpful to some voyeuristic hobbyists wishing to obey the law.

 

[eastender]

Genesis of a thread

EB,

The genesis of a thread is very important.Starting a new thread may have merit but a lot of debate would be lost/delayed by having to constantly refer
back and forth.

Also closing a thread prematurely inhibits debate as people do not wish to get re-involved since it may not be worth the investment of their time
to continue only to have the new thread closed prematurely.

 

[Gambling Fool]

My 2 cents

Well, I have to say that I agree with Mod2 on this one. I kept reading that thread and it was just sailing off course. Although some might suggest leaving that thread open and separating the 2 subjects. IMO that particular subject had run its course. The questions posed by Eastender can be answered in another thread and I don't believe there would have been much back and forth between threads.

Gambling Fool

 

[Mod 2]

Eastender,

The original thread was about a girl being taped without her consent. A few posters (and you in particular) tried to minimize the importance of this action by trying to imply...

1) The girl lied to her friend JustaJohn and whatever she said was not the truth.
2) It's not a problem if her privacy was violated since the tape will probably never resurface.
3) Girls having web sites should not complain about being taped since they are on the Internet already.
4) Some posters hinted that such actions are justifiable, and gave the perpetrator justification for his actions.

Need I go on?

Why did I close that thread? Because of stubborn comments of a few posters (mainly you), and because whatever whoever had to say, you would come back and constantly argue, argue, argue, just for the sake of arguing.

First you got all worked up against me because of this stupid argument about birthdays of ANONYMOUS posters being shown on the board, birthdays which were WILLINGLY ENTERED on the board. Those birthdays represent NO HARM to anyone, as they are in no way identifying a real person.

Then you try to minimize the importance of videotaping an SP without her consent, something that could destroy her whole life if it becomes known to her loved ones????? Talk about double standards!

Just to bring the records straight:

1) I happen to know the girl and finally got confirmation directly from her that the videotaping really happened.
2) Her privacy WAS VIOLATED. Whether the tape resurfaces or not has nothing to do with the simple fact it was recorded WITHOUT CONSENT. Forget about the legal aspects, it's just COMMON SENSE for God's sake!
3) Girls having web sites know about THEIR BODIES being shown, and for most of them, every single identifying attribute is removed: face, tattoos, etc. A videotape is directly identifying the person involved.
4) There's no possible justification for such an act. You want a video? Don't be sneaky and openly ask for it! Some girls will be happy to say yes.

Now please don't get me wrong: The subject of videotaping someone, WITH THE GIRL KNOWING, is totally legitimate. If someone wants to start a thread about that, go ahead.

Eastender, you bring interesting subjects but your neverending way to stir shit is not the purpose of this board, and is bothersome to many. Just in case you don't know, this is an ESCORT REVIEW BOARD. If you want to post reviews, go ahead. If you want to continue debating about all kinds of legal issues, culture and politics, and God knows what, I am afraid you're on the wrong board.

M2

 

[Lawless]

Mod2 never acted so quickly before....disagreement with the content of the thread itself should not be a reason to close it!
Was the thread offensive to the members, to morale, to public order...you may have the answer!
Is it dangerous precedent....for a board like this one...where morale could be discussed at lenght!!!
Violating the privacy of an SP member!!!!....Interresting indeed!!
Legitimate and legal...again the "morale"!!!
Mod2 for whom I have the greatest respect, never reverted to the words he used just above......
EB could help us on this one!
One may wonder!!!!

 

[Techman]

Deleted and modified threads....

Lately I've noticed on multiple occassions that some threads are being deleted, or have seen posts in threads deleted, with no explanation. Can someone tell me what's going on? Closing threads is one thing but having them disappear, or a bunch of posts deleted, with no reason given is ridiculous. The Nadia no-limits is one that was completely wiped of posts and there was a thread on Amy of xxxtase today that seems to have been deleted. What's going on? Maybe there should be a sticky to explain the reasons behind these occurances like the one for shills.

 

[eastender]

Curiosity

Eastender...

I`ve noticed you seem to like controversy..the Drama..and all the BS that goes with it. Always hanging around in the Lounge..never in Outcall, Incall, Massage, strip clubs or anything else , just the Lounge..NO , FS, CIM, HJ, doggy, Greek Island tours, DFK or LFK..nothing !!

SO...What gives??

Welcome to the Lounge
Now you have yet another issue, properly suited for the Lounge I may add ..I find thats kinda odd, seeing we`re on an Escort Review Board..I mean really, aren`t you even a little curious to perhaps check out some of the other sections on this Board??..really, I`m just..just Kinda curious..

And as for information on Videotaping SPs..why not just start a thread for that..what does it have to do with that closed thread?...just Move on Dude !!

SA

I started a thread in the ``Street Action`` called Bienvenue aux Dames that detailed my interests and experiences.That I did not list names stems from my views of privacy.

https://merb.cc/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=11113&highlight="bienvenue+dames

That others have a limited interest in this aspect of the ``hobby`` just leaves more gold nuggets for me.

 

[eastender]

Trying hard to be reasonable

Eastender,

The original thread was about a girl being taped without her consent. A few posters (and you in particular) tried to minimize the importance of this action by trying to imply...

1) The girl lied to her friend JustaJohn and whatever she said was not the truth.
2) It's not a problem if her privacy was violated since the tape will probably never resurface.
3) Girls having web sites should not complain about being taped since they are on the Internet already.
4) Some posters hinted that such actions are justifiable, and gave the perpetrator justification for his actions.

Need I go on?

Why did I close that thread? Because of stubborn comments of a few posters (mainly you), and because whatever whoever had to say, you would come back and constantly argue, argue, argue, just for the sake of arguing.

First you got all worked up against me because of this stupid argument about birthdays of ANONYMOUS posters being shown on the board, birthdays which were WILLINGLY ENTERED on the board. Those birthdays represent NO HARM to anyone, as they are in no way identifying a real person.

Then you try to minimize the importance of videotaping an SP without her consent, something that could destroy her whole life if it becomes known to her loved ones????? Talk about double standards!

Just to bring the records straight:

1) I happen to know the girl and finally got confirmation directly from her that the videotaping really happened.
2) Her privacy WAS VIOLATED. Whether the tape resurfaces or not has nothing to do with the simple fact it was recorded WITHOUT CONSENT. Forget about the legal aspects, it's just COMMON SENSE for God's sake!
3) Girls having web sites know about THEIR BODIES being shown, and for most of them, every single identifying attribute is removed: face, tattoos, etc. A videotape is directly identifying the person involved.
4) There's no possible justification for such an act. You want a video? Don't be sneaky and openly ask for it! Some girls will be happy to say yes.

Now please don't get me wrong: The subject of videotaping someone, WITH THE GIRL KNOWING, is totally legitimate. If someone wants to start a thread about that, go ahead.

Eastender, you bring interesting subjects but your neverending way to stir shit is not the purpose of this board, and is bothersome to many. Just in case you don't know, this is an ESCORT REVIEW BOARD. If you want to post reviews, go ahead. If you want to continue debating about all kinds of legal issues, culture and politics, and God knows what, I am afraid you're on the wrong board.

M2

You raise many points but it comes down to a few basic points and issues.I will respond.

You always talk about moving on BUT you bring back the birthday issue.OK
be fair about my point - you shifted the discussion so that it focused on me
revealing that you never checked that my public profile never showed my birthday.You changed a public issue into a personal issue.

In one of my early posts in the closed thread I called the taper a lowlife -
which I believe clearly positioned me in the PRIVACY/CONSENT debate.
Some times to get at the truth someone has to play the devils advocate and ask the questions that have to be asked.A few posts down from yours in this thread another poster reveals another version of the incident that started the first thread.A separate thread focusing on the key issues raised has merit BUT getting at the truth would put such a thread on a much more solid foundation.

In a post made earlier today I refer to a thread I started "Bienvenue aux Dames" - your moderated that thread giving technical guidance that was appreciated.I have also posted elsewhere in Street Action,Montreal Strip Clubs,Escort 411,Montreal Escorts(outcall) plus a few others.That the lounge contains interesting subjects,I see as a tribute to the board and the diversity and intelligence that it spawns.If these subjects trouble you or the ownership
then the ownership should do away with the lounge.Many of the board regulars have a higher percentage of Lounge posts than I do(bad habit of checking things before making claims).It would be interesting to see what impact this would have on the traffic.

 

[Mod 2]

Oh my! This is becoming way too time consuming... I'll try to adress all points as quickly and efficiently as possible...

I happen to know the girl and the client!

The story that I got was that it was agreed to be videotaped for $100 extra.
After 2 min the Sp says its enough....but "time limit" was not discussed in advance and therefore the client said he won't pay the extra......simple.

Or was she snooping around while the client was in the shower.
Good thing he didn't give her his only tape which had her sticky fingers all over HIS PRIVATE BELONGINGS including his videocamera and wallet!

Freewill, from your recollection of what happened, it's obvious to me that we are not talking about the same event. The woman I talked to told me there was no agreement about ANY amount of $$$. She DID NOT EVEN KNOW she was being taped until she saw the videocamera. And I don't know what you're trying to imply with your "sticky fingers" comment, but I prefer not go there.

Based on your comments I come to the conclusion that it occured to more than one SP, two differents events, and I don't know if it's the same client for both SPs, but hearing things like that happen more and more often is very disturbing.

I started a thread which I called "closed threads" which was similar to this one. Within minutes it was deleted.

I don't recall deleting a thread on this subject recently. Would you mind telling me when that happened? Once I find the deleted thread you're talking about, I'll be pleased to tell you the reasons behind it's deletion.

Mod2 never acted so quickly before....disagreement with the content of the thread itself should not be a reason to close it!
Was the thread offensive to the members, to morale, to public order...you may have the answer!
Is it dangerous precedent....for a board like this one...where morale could be discussed at lenght!!!

Point taken. In retrospect I have to agree with you to an extent. My decision of closing the thread was not driven by the board's rules as much as by the moral of what was being discussed in that thread, and seeing how some didn't care about the girl's basic right to privacy and respect pissed me off. My bad.

I reiterate what I said above: "The subject of videotaping someone, WITH THE GIRL KNOWING, is totally legitimate. If someone wants to start a thread about that, go ahead".

Lately I've noticed on multiple occassions that some threads are being deleted, or have seen posts in threads deleted, with no explanation. Can someone tell me what's going on?

A quite prolific member asked Fred to have all of his posts deleted recently. Fred went ahead and used the vBulletin's "prune" function to delete all of the user's posts, and as a side effect, every thread he started also disapeared. Maylee lost her whole thread, and other very interresting threads disapeared as well as a result.

Mod4 and myself have offered our help to Fred in the past to selectively delete posts and threads while preserving their content by spliting those threads before, but it's not always possible. In the rush, Fred may have used the prune functions a few times more that what we all hoped, causing the disapearances...

In one of my early posts in the closed thread I called the taper a lowlife - which I believe clearly positioned me in the PRIVACY/CONSENT debate.

At this point I don't think it would be appropriate to comment any further. I am trying my best to stay calm and objective (and I fail sometimes, like every human being), and I don't have anything to add to what I posted above.

Thanks for reading

M2

 

[Mod 2]

MOD...
I am talking about the same incident.

I might be the only one on this board that knows both the SP in question and The client.

Freewill, since I am sworn to secrecy I can`t tell who this women is (or is not). As you said yourself, "Was this the same SP in question or just a similar coincidence?". You are right in saying that I am not the "lead investigator" so I suggest we both drop it. It`s useless to this board.

I started a thread which I called "closed threads" which was similar to this one. Within minutes it was deleted.

You claimed that I deleted the thread but the example you just posted was not a deletion at all but a merge with another thread. The post you made is still available for everyone to see, and I did post a comment right after. If you want to complain about my actions, at least set the records straight.

M2

 

[Techman]

Mod2

Would it be possible to have a sticky thread that indicates when posters request to have their history of posts removed or to indicate which threads have been merged or removed and the reasons for such. This would keep a lot of questions from coming up. If it can be done when a lady asks for her reviews to be removed I think that the members deserve the same consideration. It can be a bit disconcerting when threads or posters disappear from the board with no explanation.

And what happened to the Amy thread? It started late yesterday afternoon and was gone by the time I got home to check the board.

 

[Mod 2]

Would it be possible to have a sticky thread that indicates when posters request to have their history of posts removed or to indicate which threads have been merged or removed and the reasons for such. This would keep a lot of questions from coming up. If it can be done when a lady asks for her reviews to be removed I think that the members deserve the same consideration. It can be a bit disconcerting when threads or posters disappear from the board with no explanation.

I second this request. Since Fred is the one deleting handles (Mods cant do that), I will bring that up with him.

And what happened to the Amy thread? It started late yesterday afternoon and was gone by the time I got home to check the board.

Someone started that thread yesterday, and it was pulled based on the following:

2) Forbidden Activities:
members.
v) Posting false or otherwise unverified information with the intent to either damage the reputation or otherwise of a service provider or agency or, to gain favor of a service provider or agency.

If the original poster is willing to post about his experience, but this time with more details to back his claims, the thread will remain.

M2

 

[eastender]

Setting the record straight????

Freewill, since I am sworn to secrecy I can`t tell who this women is (or is not). As you said yourself, "Was this the same SP in question or just a similar coincidence?". You are right in saying that I am not the "lead investigator" so I suggest we both drop it. It`s useless to this board.

You claimed that I deleted the thread but the example you just posted was not a deletion at all but a merge with another thread. The post you made is still available for everyone to see, and I did post a comment right after. If you want to complain about my actions, at least set the records straight.

M2

Let`s set the record straight - it was merged with a thread that you CLOSED
so while it may have been SEEN it could not have been DEBATED which is the main concern.In an intellectually dishonest fashion you tried to get the last word.

The issue YOU are trying to drop is very useful to the board.You crossed the line from being a moderator to being a participant in the debate.This was a blatant example of a conflict of interest.This had the following impact on the debate and the board - you allowed posts that suggested or implied "vigilante justice" which is ILLEGAL in all jurisdictions and goes against Board Rules.So YOU were not moderating but YOU were favoring a specific side.If/when
future threads get polluted by posts for "vigilante action" you will be hamstrung by the precedent you just set.

Furthermore when you were questionned about your actions you attempted to deflect the issue to the various posters.Why should people posting in good faith be subjected to this because the direction of the debate strayed from YOUR agenda of being a cyber white knight?

 

[MG_mtl]

And what happened to the Amy thread? It started late yesterday afternoon and was gone by the time I got home to check the board.

It was a useless thread started by Poly (I believe) with a one line attack on Amy and XXXTase and not backed up by any facts of review. A few members (including myself) had time to post in it and we all pretty much agreed that it was a ridiculous thread unless Poly backed it up with a review of Amy.

 

[Mod 2]

Let's set the record straight - it was merged with a thread that you CLOSED so while it may have been SEEN it could not have been DEBATED which is the main concern.In an intellectually dishonest fashion you tried to get the last word.

Just in case you never noticed, moderators have a job that is very similar to judges in the real world: they have to weigh in all elements and take decisions. Judges have to last word by default. It's my "job".

The issue YOU are trying to drop is very useful to the board.You crossed the line from being a moderator to being a participant in the debate.This was a blatant example of a conflict of interest.

Crossing the line from Moderator to participant? I can't argue on this one. I disagree with the conflict of interest tough. Whoever was the girl involved is irrelevant. It's the moral of the whole thing of privacy violation in general that got me to react. At least, by your own saying this is a "precedent", so it looks like I am not doing so bad after all!

M2

 

[eastender]

Precedent

Just in case you never noticed, moderators have a job that is very similar to judges in the real world: they have to weigh in all elements and take decisions. Judges have to last word by default. It's my "job".


Crossing the line from Moderator to participant? I can't argue on this one. I disagree with the conflict of interest tough. Whoever was the girl involved is irrelevant. It's the moral of the whole thing of privacy violation in general that got me to react. At least, by your own saying this is a "precedent", so it looks like I am not doing so bad after all!

M2

Refer you to a "Sticky - Attn:Ladies -Please read" posted by Fred Zed and edited by you? Sept. 20,2005.You had a precedent and the tools at hand to handle the situation but you did not want to do so.The option that Fred Zed used alerted all concerned about an important situation but it did not
misled the MERB community about who was involved or create needless conflict.You then have the nerve to blame or try to "spin" the situation by pointing the finger at various community members.

If you are familiar with judges then you must be familiar with the appeals process that ends at the Supreme Court.A judge's decision may be appealed
but the judge may not sit at the appeal.Appeals at the Supreme Court level
are heard by a panel of judges.

Conversely impersonating a judge is a serious offense but impersonating
a mod is not - although one may question why someone would want to do so.

Precedents are positive and negative - so why be smug about setting a negative one - sanctionning "vigilante actions"

 

[MG_mtl]

Geez Eastender, are you a lawyer ? 'Cause you sure as hell debate like one, you must always have the last word don't you ! BTW this is the polite way of saying to someone "you are busting my balls"

 

[Mod 2]

Refer you to a "Sticky - Attn:Ladies -Please read" posted by Fred Zed and edited by you? Sept. 20,2005.You had a precedent and the tools at hand to handle the situation but you did not want to do so.The option that Fred Zed used alerted all concerned about an important situation but it did not misled the MERB community about who was involved or create needless conflict.You then have the nerve to blame or try to "spin" the situation by pointing the finger at various community members.

OK, so now I am to blame for doing a cut and paste? LOL!

If you are familiar with judges then you must be familiar with the appeals process that ends at the Supreme Court. A judge's decision may be appealed but the judge may not sit at the appeal. Appeals at the Supreme Court level are heard by a panel of judges.

As far as I know, you are not a judge, nor a mod, but a member I somehow pissed off and you are here to stir shit and disturb, whatever the reason.

Your PM of August 31st was very revealing about your agenda against me: "[...] I think that the only other honourable solution would be your resignation". Do you remember my answer back then? "If you are not happy with how I moderate the board, please feel free to voice your concerns publicly for others to comments, or start a poll if you wish. I highly value freedom of speech. If the consensus is that I am not doing my voluntary "job" correctly, I will be pleased to give up my seat to a more competent person.".

So as we stand right now, I see three solutions...
1) You shut up and let me do my job.
2) You continue to argue and I kick you out for board nuisance.
3) You go with my poll suggestion, ask the membership about my competence to the job, and you ALL live with the result... I don't see much support here in your or my favor, so who knows? Mod5 and Mod6 take over... OR you are back to the solutions 1 and 2 and you stop this vendetta.

At this point I have had enough. Your next action will dictate whether I go with route 1, 2 or 3.

M2