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Responsability of Bar management to alert LE ...

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MtlNewbie

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I just made a thread but deleted it after seeing yours. He was ejected from a strip club, I wonder which one. Scary!
 
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CaptainPicard

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The police said a Bar between Ste-Catherine and de Maisonneuve, so it has to be Kingdom in my opinion.
Captain out!
 
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MtlNewbie

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yeah, I thought the same.

back on topic, although this is a really sad case, I think this is a pretty freak occurrence. I'm sure drunk drivers is a much bigger problem with regard to bars and their patrons.
 
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CaptainPicard

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Probably drunk drivers do more damage. But, in this aera of town there are lots of people with drug/alcool/sanity problems. Bars should be on the look out for the most violent ones. I don't mean to snitch on every drunk, but when a person displays uncontrolable violent behavior, to the point that he is thrown out of the club, had they alerted police at the same time the beating death of the Lady would have likely been avoided. Not so long ago, police gunned down a garbage can attacker not far from the main.
Captain out!
 
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EagerBeaver

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CaptainPicard said:
When a bar throws out some rowdy high or drunk patron who displays overt violent behavior, shoudn't the Bar be obligated to allert the police?
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CP,

This is a great questions and interesting legal issue which I have litigated in the USA. I have seen it come up in several bar fights that took place in parking lot or street near the bar after the combatants were thrown out by the bar. Without getting into the specific facts of these cases, what happened was a verbal altercation occurred inside the bar, the instigator or perceived instigator or instigators was then ejected, and a physical fight ensued between the belligerents outside the bar. The bar is then sued on theories of serving too much liquor to an already intoxicated person (Dram Shop law) or negligent failure to provide security on or near its premises. It really depends on the facts of the case and what the issue was inside the bar and whether the bar could have foreseen that the person would become violent to other bar patrons, or as in this case, to some innocent person on the street.

In some cases I have seen a theory advanced that where 2 belligerents are thrown out of a bar for verbal jousting, the bouncer should see them off the premises by taxi or otherwise if they are not fit to drive. Most busy city bars have surveillance cameras outside the premises and if a fight then occurs and it is on camera, they have a problem, I would say. At a minimum I think you need to get the belligerents completely off the bar premises. The bar should call the police if they threaten an assault and/or have a weapon, but usually bars do not like to call the cops especially if they have their own security. It's bad for business when people see cops, and sends a message to everyone that the bar cannot handle situations that develop with their own bouncers. Many busy bars I have seen involved in litigation employ extra duty police officers who get paid time and a half. In this case there is no need to call the police, they are already there.

As to members of the public, the duty would depend on what the man was doing inside the bar. If he was just being a general asshole it's not clear what duty they have. The Chowderpot, a Connecticut bar/restaurant, was just smacked with a 4.3 million dollar jury verdict after a patron they were serving at the bar and who was behaving like an asshole was NOT ejected, and then stabbed someone at the bar. It was claimed that the person was a Yankees fan and stabbed a Red Sox fan but while he was still in the bar. The bar's attorney argued, unsuccessfully, that it is not foreseeable that someone just acting like a general asshole will pull out a knife and commit a criminal assault (for which he was convicted and is serving 10 years in prison). This case sounds a lot like the Chowderpot case. But it's Montreal, not Connecticut. In Montreal there are not these huge insurance money grabs like we have in CT. People just say "shit happens."
 
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rocky69

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According to Pulse news tonight, the accused had attempted to get into Cleo's, but was turned away. Police are looking for witnesses who may have taken pictures and or video of the assault. The accused is supposed to appear in court on Tuesday. Also, the video footage, clearly shows this happened outside of the Kingdom. The news report indicates that the accused was thrown out of a strip club for bad behavior with the staff and clients of the strip club.
 
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Batista Mason

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Its been confirmed he was kicked out of Kingdom.

I am also wondering why they didn't call the police after kicking him out or at least had their doorman/bouncer outside to keep an eye on him. Some of their girls are outside during their break, what if he decided to attack one of them?
 
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Sir Richard Branson

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If a bar had to alert the police every time they eject a patron, the police would be getting 100s of times on Friday and Saturday nights.
 
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CaptainPicard

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If this guy had raised the roof in a restaurant or any other business, wouldn't the police have been called in? Then, why can Bars get off so easy? I repeat I'm not talking about the obnoxious drunk here but someone who displays overt violent behavior. Easy enough to identify in my opinion.
To those who consider this a isolated incident, do you remember the Blue bird Café?
Captain out!
 
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bigjean

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Wallseye said:
Well they are a strip club, do you really think these people care about society and others?
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What?!!!!!! Come on, they are have liquor license (permis d'alcool?), they want to keep it and they want to make money! Do you think it's a good publicity?? NOrmaly the bouncer are strict and professionnal at the kingdom...They are "the stars" in this documentary http://www.canald.com/emissions/docud-1.1197927?tab=episodes&episode=1375664400

As a citizen, you have the responsability to act when you see something dangerous. Do you call the cops each time you see someone strange on the sidewalk after midnight? Each time you see a drunk dude take his car in the parking of a bar?
 
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eastender

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There are a number of basic issues. Let's start with a single individual and some basic concerns.

An act that merits ejections is rarely criminal, even if the police would intervene in non-criminal situations there is the consideration of holding a person against their will in a situation that is not criminal while waiting for police to arrive. SCs are not equipped to hold people, nor is staff in a position to search - illegal, remove dangerous items - belts etc that can be used in a suicide attempt or lighters, etc that could do damage to the premises.
Actually a single group of like individuals is easier to handle than a single individual since in a group you will usually find a counter-balance, the one that is the least intoxicated, sanest of the group.

Conflicting individuals or groups. With each other that have not crossed into the criminal - not armed in anyway,etc. looking beyond the obvious that something was mishandled much earlier - inability or unwillingness to separate the two to extremes of the bar, you have the following.

Most of the single individual concerns kick in plus the ejections have to be managed and timed. If you have the luxury of two viable exits it is rather straightforward. Downtown / in town if the SC has an external doorman with support, in a high traffic area with police one group leaves, followed by the second minutes later. Isolated or remote would have to be looked at on a case by case basis.
 
Halloween Mike

Halloween Mike

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Not that i want to give the guy an excuse, but why the hell was an old 67 woman doing grocery at 4 AM !!! WTF !!!

People need to be a little bit cautious. After 3 am especially...

My Uncle that live in MTL since his young age(and he is gay, so even more at risk) explained to me the other day to never go into small and dark streets between 2:30 am and 5 am, its the time where your most likely to be attacked. They will never do where there is lots of people. Of course in the case of thug and such, not drunkn crazy guy. But then again i find it sad nobody intervene before... since he finally did, but too late.

Anyway... bar wash there hands of this cause it would be too much trouble for them. For exemple last time i was at Studio sex in sherbrooke, i remained there til the end... a drunk customer(wich was a regular for what i saw) was asked by the doorman(old time doorman that is there since the 80s) if he was driving his car(J'esper tu chauffera pas ton char...) wich the guy replied ".... bonne nuit" so obviously he was... Doorman and me then discussed about it a bit since there was 5 mins or so til the close, and he said there is nothing he can do basically exept give his advice, call a taxi if asked, he can't force them to give there key or such...

Then i was walking the streets to get back home and i saw the same drunken guy trying to pick me up to give me a lift... no way... LOL, no need to tell you i declined immediately.

Call me crazy but the solution would be police standing at the exit and controlling clients one by one, doing the alchool test and if they fail, no driving... lock the car...
 
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EagerBeaver

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Wallseye said:
Well they are a strip club, do you really think these people care about society and others? Serioulsy they don't give a shit, they probably don't care that an old lady got killed, they're just happy it didn't happen in their club and/or that he got kicked out before messing too much. They probably used intimidation towards him which triggered an excess of aggressivity because of the feeling of being powerless. I don't accuse them of being the cause of the murder, but they are strip club owners and bouncers, i.e. assholes and egoistical people.
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Wallseye I am not sure exactly what you are proposing Kingdom's security personnel should have done. They have no authority to detain the man, that would be a false imprisonment or false arrest. I have seen violent customers ejected from Connecticut strip clubs on several occasions. In one incident a drunken patron, and I personally observed this as an eyewitness, smashed a beer bottle on the dance floor and cut a stripper's leg with the broken bottle. Blood was dripping from her leg onto the main stage. The bouncers were on the drunk guy in 2 seconds and he was physically removed from the premises in about 10 seconds. Cops were not called. It is bad business to be calling the cops in that situation. You have your bar's name in the police blotter of the local newspaper, it's an admission to the cops that your customers are criminals or that your bar is a hangout for violent criminals, and it also puts unwanted scrutiny on your stripper employees who have no desire to talk to the cops.

The bar I saw this happen at I know for fact is owned and operated by Italian mafia. They dispense justice their own way and I can guarantee you the guy who broke that bottle and cut that stripper received their justice.
 
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CaptainPicard

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Halloween Mike said:
Not that i want to give the guy an excuse, but why the hell was an old 67 woman doing grocery at 4 AM !!! WTF !!!...
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This is was what the media said, but I asked around and it turns out it is one of the 2 regular «bag ladies» who walk around the area. A few weeks ago I was watching a movie in Parc de la Paix and observed the very lady who was attacked. She probably had a quiet existence in Chinatown, not bothering anybody. This is so sad!
Captain out!
 
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Tomato Soup

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A bar doorman is not expected to know what a nut job will do outside, all he is concerned with is what is in the bar.
 
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CaptainPicard

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Hey Octavian! Don't make light of this incident. An innocent lady died, and painfully at the hands of this lunatic, who by the way, has a past record of unprovoked attacks.
Captain out!
 
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